Commodore Wrote:Sheesh, they're managing a great dogpile.
You guys did declare on everyone!
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
Commodore Wrote:Sorry I've been out a lot still dedlurking here but I didn't want to take over in the middle of this hot war,
It's fine, I expected you to be busy. I'm enjoying myself, so don't feel rushed. I'm a little surprised you were able to get back in the saddle in the other games so quickly, in fact.
Quote: but modest proposal: Amatheon is a single turn of a super-city's production (a settler). Losing it isn't a huge deal, maybe get it to size 4 to get two angels from it dying. But, it's lovely bait. I'd feel so much better if we could wipe, or at least shred, that terror-stack. This is a lot of investment, with the recon-line side and everything. Kill this, and we have maybe two whole Beast-invasion cycles until he can return with another.
Sheesh, they're managing a great dogpile.
I like that idea. It's very true that Amatheon's is a lot easier to abandon than Avelorn. Definitely would need Kurio support, though - the angels simply don't have the number of bodies to kill through the Tigers, which unfortunately appear to be primary stack defenders at the moment.
It'd be a lot easier if Ilios didn't have Hawks himself. I'm not sure quite how to manage a strong enough force to shred his stack, that he can't see coming.
Commodore Wrote:Sorry I've been out a lot still dedlurking here but I didn't want to take over in the middle of this hot war, but modest proposal: Amatheon is a single turn of a super-city's production (a settler). Losing it isn't a huge deal, maybe get it to size 4 to get two angels from it dying. But, it's lovely bait. I'd feel so much better if we could wipe, or at least shred, that terror-stack. This is a lot of investment, with the recon-line side and everything. Kill this, and we have maybe two whole Beast-invasion cycles until he can return with another.
No worries! I imagine you've got a lot on your mind right now.
On giving up Amatheon's: I'm not sold. It's worth a lot more than the time it takes to build a settler: it takes several turns of growth to get through the first sizes. We really need some productive Mercurian cities (on that note, I'd let Amatheon's grow rather than producing 3-turn axes; we can defend it with units from the outside).
I'd trade the city for wiping Ilios's stack, sure. But I'm not sure offering him the city would do much good. The main problem is that when he's not on defensive terrain, those tigers will defend the stack. So we have to punch through 16 or 17 of them before doing any real damage.
Quote: Sheesh, they're managing a great dogpile.
Just imagine how bad it would be if diplomacy was on!
Merovech Wrote:You guys did declare on everyone!
Details!
Okay, played the turn. First of all, Empyrean is in:
We got to propose another overcouncil resolution:
Already got the single currency and open markets. Don't really want to be forced to adopt liberty. So I proposed a war on Bob .
Got two hawks now. I sent one to keep eyes on Ilios's stack, and the other one did a flyover of Bob:
Can't tell how many BoAs he has right now. I think it's two? I guess I can tell by looking back and tracking the AC changes, though losing those Mercurian cities should make a difference there. Anyways, he's not on our case yet, but we need to be ready to scramble our paladins and deal with another BoA incursion at any moment. Also of note: he got a great prophet. Wonder what he'll do with it? Save for a second golden age?
Here's a curious fact:
Apparently warriors will upgrade to centaur chargers. However, it is an expensive (and probably extremely painful) process.
So, on to the matter at hand.
Mardoc Wrote:Looks like Ilios is going to try for Amatheon's; he's in a sorta-fork position for it and Kilmorph's. I've got a stack of 3 Paladins, 4 Axemen, and 2 Crusaders in a spot where they can reinforce either city in one turn. And I brought Basium up to Kilmorph's, after double checking that Ilio's stack has no horsemen.
I'm not too worried for the moment. Brought our 18-centaur stack just north of Kilmorph's. It can be in Amatheon's next turn. Or, if he positions his stack as you think he will, we can have our centaurs sprint, hit the stack, and still have enough movement left to move to the forest tile indicated here:
There's a Kuriotate paladin that could cover them, and Basium could probably also reach; if Ilios wanted revenge he'd have to lose a lot of priests. Not sure that's worth it, since he can just resummon next turn.
Quote:I'm uncertain if this is enough firepower. I think it'll probably do, but I'd appreciate it if you could rotate your adepts northward so that we can get a Wall cast in either city in the event it's necessary. And ideally keep your Paladin in the area.
I've moved the adepts up as you suggested, so we'll have walls if we need them. Should be no problem defending either city; we can make them as impregnable as Avelorn. He can't pillage us with that stack, since it lacks horsemen now. My only worry is that if we don't do something about it quick, he'll bring more horsemen over and resume pillaging. (Then again, if he doesn't do something about us quick, he'll be on the business end of a dragon.)
Quote:Please also build a road on the gold. If Ilios moves where I expect him to, a gold road would allow troops to attack out at him.
No can do. That's four tiles from Ilios's stack, and his stack contains a 4-mover (the hunter). We need cover for that, and none of the Kuriotate units could reach.
Quote:I've got Valin and the slow Pally headed south, in case you want to continue with the invasion. Probably not going to be building an Acolyte any time soon, not until I've got enough axes and crusaders to feel comfortable.
Let's keep the slow paladin in the south. Thoth invasion is on hold for the moment, but hopefully not for long. As for Valin: let's see what Ilios does between turns. If he does decide to camp his stack outside one of our cities, he might make the mistake of putting it on defensive terrain. Then the priests will defend again, and we can really mess him up.
In the meanwhile, we'll just need to keep accumulating more to hit him with.
Produced a centaur in Kwythellar and a hawk in Naggarond, Avelorn continued on the tower of Divination.
Looks like I was wrong when I said mathematics+taxation would be six turns at 100% science. It's actually just five turns at 90% science, which we can easily sustain. Also, here's a bright spot:
HidingKneel Wrote:Okay, played the turn. First of all, Empyrean is in:
Excellent. I hope Priests are on the menu? I'd feel pretty silly if we had the tech and the Grove built, but not Priests ready to be upgraded.
And a couple Rathas would really make me feel happy, too. Consider how much easier Ilios would be to handle if we could Blind him next to our city and spend 2 turns picking apart his stack. Remember that Blind prevents spellcasting, too!
Quote:I've moved the adepts up as you suggested, so we'll have walls if we need them. Should be no problem defending either city; we can make them as impregnable as Avelorn. He can't pillage us with that stack, since it lacks horsemen now. My only worry is that if we don't do something about it quick, he'll bring more horsemen over and resume pillaging. (Then again, if he doesn't do something about us quick, he'll be on the business end of a dragon.)
Honestly - now that Angels are going full-bore on units, he's got to do something now, or I'll be able to handle him without your help. Which in turn means Centaurs can do something more useful, like invading Ilios' east, or Thoth, or Bob.
Quote:No can do. That's four tiles from Ilios's stack, and his stack contains a 4-mover (the hunter). We need cover for that, and none of the Kuriotate units could reach.
I'd have been willing to trade 2 workers for a Hunter + Hawk and the mobility we need. I think we can still manage to make this work, though.
Quote:Let's keep the slow paladin in the south. Thoth invasion is on hold for the moment, but hopefully not for long. As for Valin: let's see what Ilios does between turns. If he does decide to camp his stack outside one of our cities, he might make the mistake of putting it on defensive terrain. Then the priests will defend again, and we can really mess him up.
I'll admit, I didn't use Valin's full movement heading southward, precisely so he could still affect the battlefield up north.
Quote:I'm not too worried for the moment. Brought our 18-centaur stack just north of Kilmorph's. It can be in Amatheon's next turn. Or, if he positions his stack as you think he will, we can have our centaurs sprint, hit the stack, and still have enough movement left to move to the forest tile indicated here:
There's a Kuriotate paladin that could cover them, and Basium could probably also reach; if Ilios wanted revenge he'd have to lose a lot of priests. Not sure that's worth it, since he can just resummon next turn.
Ah . Now, see, this we can work with. My worry was entirely on the question of whether I could handle Ilios without Kurio help - I really want to release the centaurs for offensive operations. But *with* Kurio help, we might manage to shred him. Here's my thinking.
I can definitely start the killing on my turn, with at least a couple units - two from Amatheon's, and Valin and probably Basium, at minimum. Here's where I wish you'd built that gold road: if it existed, my reinforcing stack could also hit him to knock off some more Tigers.
And perhaps equally importantly - I've checked the mechanics on Channelling; we're in luck. It's a straight-up -25% Str for purposes of calculating the stack defender per level of Channeling. Which means Combat I Priests will count as Str 6, + 20% - 50% or 4.2. Assuming it's calculated the same way as everything else in the game, that is, with percentages adding up - but if it's not, then the Tigers should have defended the stack on the hill. Which in turn means that only the Empower I Tigers will defend ahead of the CI Priests, and I see only 12 of those. Assuming I start the party with say, 4 kills, you have 18 Centaurs in range. Attack with the weak ones first, to clear away the Tigers, and Priests should start defending while you still have 10 Chargers left to attack. Kill 10 Priests, and the stack is broken, with the only relevant remaining question being if we can manage to finish it before he runs away.
All assumes that Ilios moves where we expect, and that he doesn't gain the XP in between turns to promote the last of his Priests CI. But if he stays away, we can release the party in Lanun lands instead - adding 2.5 Mercurian bodies a turn won't take long to be able to handle that stack without your help. And he needs a good chunk of XP to get CI, at least a total of 10, so odds are with us there too.
Quote:Looks like I was wrong when I said mathematics+taxation would be six turns at 100% science. It's actually just five turns at 90% science, which we can easily sustain. Also, here's a bright spot:
Excellent! Finally an Enclave - and that suggests that we've a number of towns getting close.
So, after Taxation - probably about time for Fishing/Message from the Deep, right? Other techs that would be very nice include Engineering, or up to Stirrups, or further, up to Warhorses. Another possibility is up to Animal Mastery, for Beastmasters + Heralds.
Which reminds me, this 1-move, no XP, stuff on the angels is getting to be very annoying. I still don't have any with any meaningful XP. Any suggestions on how to change that, so we can actually take advantage of the Tier 4 Angels?
I like the offense plan. Won't be able to play until late tonight. If Ilios gives opportunity, go ahead with it, but make ure that attacking superunits end up in a tile the centaurs can reach after attacking (figuring 4 moves total). Also leave something in the city that can stand up to the remnants w/ wall of stone.
Looks like Ilios saw the writing on the wall; his stack is nowhere in sight. I guess that means we can go invade Thoth after all I actually put one non-military thing into the Angel's queue; I'm still planning to keep the majority of our hammers directed at military, but I'll consider growing again as well.
Also, there's a trick to being able to see the entirety of a big stack. You hit Ctrl-I to partially hide the interface, and mouseover the army banner, not the units, and you can take a shot like this:
To discover things like 3 Beasts of Agares present, or that with current promotions, only Rosier can hit the Angelic roading worker this turn, and if he does he can't run. I'd trade a worker for Rosier, sure!
In other news: I'll be visiting family this weekend. My availability will be spotty, therefore. I'll try to play the turns if I can, but you might do better to just play both civs yourself. Back Sunday.
Alright, another turn played. We've got three hawks now. I did a flyover of Bob (Mardoc already showed it, but this way the Mercurians will see what he's up to on their next turn), Ilios (he's got a few horsemen in that eastern city, but nothing in our immediate vicinity), and flew one southeast from Uddrur:
Just in the nick of time, it would seem. Plako's got a three-move hunter, three tiles away from the city. I spread Order to it this turn, but didn't get any free units. (Maybe because it's a settlement? Or maybe just bad luck?)
Anyway, I decided I'd like to keep it, so I promoted two centaurs to mobility I and sprinted them down there. They're unpromoted and the city has no cultural defense, so his hunter might have odds one them. But it can only kill one.
Speaking of that city, I think it's time we turn it over to Basium:
I've got workers who will connect it up next turn, and can then start improving the land.
That hawk in Uddrur also got a look at Thoth. He's defending with next to nothing (bronze warriors mostly). So I'm sending this stack at him:
I think it'll cut right through him, especially with Valin and a Mercurian paladin to help.
Other centaurs I've distributed throughout the empire, and I sent a paladin out west. We need to be able to defend Kwythellar. Bob coming at it from the north, or Ilios from the northwest, would be very bad.
Mardoc Wrote:Looks like Ilios saw the writing on the wall; his stack is nowhere in sight. I guess that means we can go invade Thoth after all I actually put one non-military thing into the Angel's queue; I'm still planning to keep the majority of our hammers directed at military, but I'll consider growing again as well.
I say grow Amatheon's. We still need tons more units. Particularly acolytes, if we're going to be invading Thoth.
Quote:In other news: I'll be visiting family this weekend. My availability will be spotty, therefore. I'll try to play the turns if I can, but you might do better to just play both civs yourself. Back Sunday.
No problem, I can helm the Mercurians for a turn or two. Does this include tomorrow?
Mardoc Wrote:Excellent. I hope Priests are on the menu? I'd feel pretty silly if we had the tech and the Grove built, but not Priests ready to be upgraded.
Spread Empyrean to Kwythellar this turn and built a temple. Next turn I'll convert and start pumping vicars. When we've got a few of those, we can think about some rathas.
Quote:So, after Taxation - probably about time for Fishing/Message from the Deep, right? Other techs that would be very nice include Engineering, or up to Stirrups, or further, up to Warhorses. Another possibility is up to Animal Mastery, for Beastmasters + Heralds.
After taxation, I'm going to want to run the science slider low for a few turns to pay for grove, Eurabatres, and druid upgrades. Fishing would be a good tech to pick up then. Won't need MftD: we'll just take one of Thoth's cities.
Next tech I'm thinking is military strategy: let's put a heroic epic in Avelorn.
Then either engineering or stirrups.
Quote:Which reminds me, this 1-move, no XP, stuff on the angels is getting to be very annoying. I still don't have any with any meaningful XP. Any suggestions on how to change that, so we can actually take advantage of the Tier 4 Angels?
Heroic centaurs will lead the charge on Thoth. One of them's got more than 30xp, so that'll be an instant Valkyrie upgrade. One's got about 15, which should still be enough to get you started on a Valkyrie candidate (and might accrue some more, if battles go favorably).
Builds this turn: Empyrean temple in Kwythellar
Hawk in Naggarond (bringing us to 4; I think I'll start alternating them with more expensive builds now. Probably temples.)
Tower of Divination in Avelorn. 4 turns left.
Mathematics came in at end of turn, running breakeven science.
HidingKneel Wrote:Just in the nick of time, it would seem. Plako's got a three-move hunter, three tiles away from the city. I spread Order to it this turn, but didn't get any free units. (Maybe because it's a settlement? Or maybe just bad luck?)
Probably luck. The FFH manual says it's a 75% chance for free units.
Quote:Speaking of that city, I think it's time we turn it over to Basium:
I've got workers who will connect it up next turn, and can then start improving the land.
Cool. Workers was the main thing we needed to wait for, anyway
Quote:I say grow Amatheon's. We still need tons more units. Particularly acolytes, if we're going to be invading Thoth.
Yes, will do. Just wanted it to finish the axe in queue, not lose those hammers. And Kilmorph's was on the edge of growing, with tiles already improved, so it seemed more suitable for a brief break from the war drums.
Anyway, I was planning to rotate which city was growing, but always have the majority of the effort going to war.
Quote:No problem, I can helm the Mercurians for a turn or two. Does this include tomorrow?
Depends on when the save comes in, and when my wife gets off work. I expect to be gone about six hours from now. Certainly if the save hasn't been played by your normal time, it's yours.
Quote:After taxation, I'm going to want to run the science slider low for a few turns to pay for grove, Eurabatres, and druid upgrades. Fishing would be a good tech to pick up then. Won't need MftD: we'll just take one of Thoth's cities.
Next tech I'm thinking is military strategy: let's put a heroic epic in Avelorn.
Then either engineering or stirrups.
That's reasonable. Angels could use an Epic or two, as well, sooner or later. And MilStrat is a prereq for a surprising number of techs
Quote:Heroic centaurs will lead the charge on Thoth. One of them's got more than 30xp, so that'll be an instant Valkyrie upgrade. One's got about 15, which should still be enough to get you started on a Valkyrie candidate (and might accrue some more, if battles go favorably).
Yes, there is more than one way to get Angels with experience, isn't there? Doesn't have to be training up the Angels I already have, necessarily.
Of note: Ilios has taxation now. I think the Pillar of Chains, together with Bob completing a fourth beast, will trigger blight. But if that's going to happen anyway, it might as well happen in a way that lets us grab a terrific wonder.
Not sure how much of a lead Ilios will have, but his golden age should be over soon, at which point Avelorn will almost surely be the most productive city in the world. Maybe we should put the heroic epic on hold and race him to it?
I wanted to say no, we'd rather spend hammers on military. But 335 hammers in for a result of 31 hpt (after Forge) is an excellent deal. So long as our military suffices during the interim, of course. That, plus the Epic, would be more than enough hammers to 1-turn horse archers; maybe enough for one-turning tier 4 units as well. Only question is - won't we want to be building a Dragon and a Grove at about the same time?
Although, come to think, if we can accumulate the gold to rush both of those, we could take advantage of the fact that all production goes toward overflow when you rush. We could have two full turns of overflow into the Pillar, plus Avelorn's natural production.
There's a way to control the AC, though . Gotta go kill some Ashen Veil heroes, maybe find a way to control and Inquisition a bunch of Veil cities...I'm sure you can see the picture. The main question is timing, if we can arrange to do that before the Pillar is in. If not, perhaps we need to be building some Aqueducts and such while we head that way. Blight could absolutely crush the supercities if we're not careful.
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. Now, see, this we can work with. My worry was entirely on the question of whether I could handle Ilios without Kurio help - I really want to release the centaurs for offensive operations. But *with* Kurio help, we might manage to shred him. Here's my thinking.
I actually put one non-military thing into the Angel's queue; I'm still planning to keep the majority of our hammers directed at military, but I'll consider growing again as well.![[Image: PBEMXXI%20T107%20Basium.JPG]](https://dl.dropbox.com/u/16549110/PBEMXXI%20T107%20Basium.JPG)
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. Gotta go kill some Ashen Veil heroes, maybe find a way to control and Inquisition a bunch of Veil cities...I'm sure you can see the picture. The main question is timing, if we can arrange to do that before the Pillar is in. If not, perhaps we need to be building some Aqueducts and such while we head that way. Blight could absolutely crush the supercities if we're not careful.