WW16: The Outlaws and The Olives

[Lewwyn]

Ugh, I went back to the front to look at the roster and I'm thinking, "What? These guys are playing too?" There's still so many people in the game. I'm not going to go through everyone, but I'm going to go mention peeps that are sticking out to me.


-It seems novice is getting a lot of flack but I'm still leaning innocent on him.
-Injera has been, IMO, comeback villager of the game. Welcome back from the wolf den.
-Serdoa has seemed pretty clean to me. Not biting on that last minute vote on Sareln. Been there as a villager, and if I had been awake at the end of the day I might've done the same.
-Another rebounder in Jkaen personally feel that Jkaen has been a lot more clear minded this game. Certainly a departure from last game. I'm hoping its because he feels he did poorly last game and not because he suddenly has a cheat sheet.
-I mentioned earlier that I'm not getting a good enough read on Pindicator either way. As I stated earlier, I'm not willing to base it on whether I think one action is more scummy than another. I'm willing to wait, or at least in case I'm dead, willing to have the village give him a few more days to prove his innocence before making a final judgement
-Tasunke
-Molach is playing?
-Remember that big opening day post by Waterbat. I haven't seen a continuation of that really. Dunno yet if that's more or less suspicious. But I'm actually thinking it might be less suspicious because a villager would tire of the act... right?
-Do I buy Ichabod's latest defense? He certainly tires me out.
- Catwalk
-We have a pair of excellent lurkers in Selrahc and Arromir, either of whom could be scum, or both. They both remind me significantly of GES in WW3 who would regularly check in simply to say RL was being a pain before disappearing again. These two may have actual RL issues, but so did GES.
-Uber and TT are so at each others throats that I can't tell anything. They both... make a lot of noise.

Yeah I didn't go through everyone. My feet hurt. What is this Night 2?

[pindicator]

Why did you believe that it was better to lynch Sareln (who has made an effort on scumhunting and brought forth a case) than Ichabod who's posts to contain many words but nothing besides 'I'm not scum'?

To be clear: I have no problem with you voting Sareln to save your skin but this argument is simple not true.

Most of that was how little time I had to give to the game Day 2. Had a great time Tuesday on my birthday - taken out to coffee, lunch with my dad, then roommates took me out for dinner and drinks - but that doesn't give much time for WW and I was skimming when I did get some free moments. So I honestly didn't even read much of what Sareln or Ichabod wrote - I skimmed it and can't recall either's arguments off the top of my head. I will need to read them in depth now. So I was going off what I saw with the voting - that Sareln had been put in the early leed with lots of other candidates put up. The second late run on me seemed like a last minute effort to save him; except that theory falls apart now we know he was a villager.

If you thought Ichabod was a good lynch why did you never state that? You were on me most of the day and never shook off. (Or did you and I missed it?)

[Ichabod]

Ichabod, at the time, this post read to me like "I'm giving up, and I'm not going to give the village anything more to go on to find my packmates." But you kept at it. This isn't necessarily an accusation, but I'm curious how you would comment on my interpretation.

At that specific point in time, I was very disappointed and wanted a break. But the vote had a purpose, at least a small one. I wanted to see what people will say about the vote. During most of the day I was constantly asking people stuff and waiting to see their reactions. All I got was few responses (Lewwyn comes to mind) and a lot of players saying I'm obviously scum, only making noise, whatever. I wanted to see if a vote would bring more reactions than questions (and while at that, vote for the player I had the biggest lead on, rather than a suspicious one, that had more votes already). Didn't work so well.

To clarify, I never intended to simply follow you everywhere. I think I explicitly stated that in an earlier post where I addressed my piggybacking. My argument was that in absence of any reads of my own, it made more sense to me to follow the lead of a mostly established townie (is your head going to explode yet TT?). I did have a read on Azza, as I thought it extremely peculiar how he got minimal attention with practically no activity day 1 and nothing with any substance day 2. I still think that's a good read, and I'm still wondering why noone picked up on it.

There's something strange with your reasoning here, Catwalk. You said that following a mostly established townie is a good thing to do, in your opinion, when you don't have a lead on anyone. Than you say you have a good lead, a lead that you still thinks is good. So, how does this fares with you following Novice, then not following him and voting Azza (your good lead) and then following him again? It's hard not to make a connection with the player that Novice voted that you didn't follow (Selrahc, if I remember correctly).

COuld you comment about this a bit?

I forget who said something similar, but it bothers me how all Bigger's posts come across scummy, which of course conflicts with the bandwagon evidence from day 1.

I pointed out some scummy posts by Bigger, especially the ones where he kept saying that I was... forgot the exact expression he used, but something like obvious scum, not only me but 3/4 more players, but without givinmg any justification of any of this. Later he dismissed my defenses in a similar fashion.

Noted. If you succeed in mislynching me tomorrow then you can puzzle out if Serdoa jumping from villager to villager at the end of a day makes him likelier scum or village. I'm leaning villager, myself

This is probably just a mistake by you, but, well, maybe people will make something of it. Serdoa jumped from me to Sareln, so how can you say it was from villager to villager. He didn't jump from you to Sareln.

Is noone interested in Azza? He's gone completely under the radar, chipping in every now and then to put a vote on me or uberfish with minimal or no justification. Posts 423 through 432 stick out to me, in case anyone wants to investigate.


Don't forget that thestick could have saved himself by voting Bigger. There might be a very obvious reason for that, after all we already know the wolves had a bad first day.

Azza, just like Arromir, that Gaspar talked about in a later post (didn't quote it) are mostly lurking. And it makes it hard to get something out of mostly silent players, especially ones you don't have a baseline on and which are playing their first games here (coupled with the fact that this is a massive game for our standards, this could very well lead to a mostly lurking mode).

Regarding the posts you quoted, they are indeed strange. But why would Azza decide to antagonize you at that point in time, if he was scum? It seems to bring an entirely not beneficial spotlight on him, which is difficult to believe a new wolf, mostly lurking, would do (in my opinion).

He ended up voting for Uberfish, as I can see from the end of day 2 tally. Reading some more of his posts to see how he went from you to uberfish might be good. Especially if he forgot entirely about thaty exchange with you, that would be more scummy, in my eyes (because such exchanges mean nothing, or almost nothing, to scum, so it'd be more likely for him to just forget it, if that's the case).

I can't let this pass though. I've seen this attitude before, but I think this attitude contributed to a village loss in ww13 and ww15.

If you are a villager, you are in fact on a team. Even if you don't know who your teammates are! If you a villager slack off you are letting your teammates down just as much as if you were scum slacking off.

Your talking about something rational, I'm talking about something emotional. You don't know your team when you are a villager, so you don't know who you are letting down (besides, there are times when your team wants to kill you). Way different from when you are a wolf.

Ok, will try and catch up everything I missed since I was last properly active yesterday. Quite a abit to go through, is anybody currently waiting on any sort of response from me I should look to first rather than go through cronologically?

I want to know why you voted for me near the deadline, if you had previously changed your mind about me and even defended me (if I can remember correctly).

Indeed. Since I'm quoting him, here's my read on Gaspar so far: I agree with the observations he makes, especially in hindsight. He doesn't push much though. For me this is consistent with a villager Gaspar that is actually on top of his game but doesn't have quite enough time.

Of course you don't have to be TT or Tasunke to come up with a scummier interpretation, but my feeling right now is akin to Uberfish - either playing a good scum game, or a valuable asset to the village. I don't think we should start to paranoia lynch yet.

Could you exemplify the bolded part a bit to me.

Second up, Meiz. Now I know Meiz caught a lot of heat last game for being alive despite always dying and then had anything but his best game, but the Meiz I know usually has really good insights, posts with lots of links I never click and nobody follows him if zakalwe isn't around to champion his cause. Actually, the part I found most odd was that he didn't get on thestick bandwagon with novice and zakalwe. I think we can find the number of times where he didn't agree with those two when they were so sure to be extraordinarily small. So what gives, there?

I recall thinking (and I really should learn to take notes when I read these threads - I'd be like 100x the WW player if I wasn't so lazy) when reading day one that Meiz was all over Jkaen. But as I reread right now, really, he's just defending or saying nothing. Check out his lone Meiz-ish post from day one, here. Its basically nothing but defense. That just seems very un-Meizish for a player who is normally not so defensive.

Day two is mostly some quick hit reads and lands on pindicator. I know he's busy (rearing its ugly head again) but I'd expect a bit more piss and vinegar from him. I guess I don't really have a smoking gun and quoting all of his blase scum-hunting isn't worth the trouble but I just don't like what we've seen so far... feels like a muted version of usual Meiz.

Meiz following Zak and Novice? I seem to recall him being one of the more consistent independent thinkers in WW games, almost always coming up with cases of his own. I didn't exactly remember him being willing to follow Zak and Novice most of the times, but maybe I'm just wrong.

Regarding the post you quoted, it's interesting to notice that one of his defenses is against a post made by thestick. In my eyes, that points more to villager, but with the usual observations. And he is, at least a bit indirectly, approving of Novice's attack on thestick in that post, which goes against your initial argument.

I think this particular post you quoted goes against most of what you said about Meiz. He didn't use his usual links, he quoted instead, but that's it. But I agree thhat he's mostly lurking, or better, there were no posts made by him that called my attention, which is unusual. But he hasn't done anything too suspicious.

[Catwalk]

To clarify, I never intended to simply follow you everywhere. I think I explicitly stated that in an earlier post where I addressed my piggybacking. My argument was that in absence of any reads of my own, it made more sense to me to follow the lead of a mostly established townie (is your head going to explode yet TT?). I did have a read on Azza, as I thought it extremely peculiar how he got minimal attention with practically no activity day 1 and nothing with any substance day 2. I still think that's a good read, and I'm still wondering why noone picked up on it.

There's something strange with your reasoning here, Catwalk. You said that following a mostly established townie is a good thing to do, in your opinion, when you don't have a lead on anyone. Than you say you have a good lead, a lead that you still thinks is good. So, how does this fares with you following Novice, then not following him and voting Azza (your good lead) and then following him again? It's hard not to make a connection with the player that Novice voted that you didn't follow (Selrahc, if I remember correctly).

Following novice's lead doesn't necessarily mean backing every single vote he makes. About Selrahc (and someone else I didn't follow him on as well), I responded to that earlier when novice inquired about the same thing. Anything specific you find contradictory about this?

Azza, just like Arromir, that Gaspar talked about in a later post (didn't quote it) are mostly lurking. And it makes it hard to get something out of mostly silent players, especially ones you don't have a baseline on and which are playing their first games here (coupled with the fact that this is a massive game for our standards, this could very well lead to a mostly lurking mode).

I distinguish between inactive players and lurking players. It looks to me like Arromir and Azza are deliberately not contributing, not merely too busy. And to me, that's a lot more suspicious.

Regarding the posts you quoted, they are indeed strange. But why would Azza decide to antagonize you at that point in time, if he was scum? It seems to bring an entirely not beneficial spotlight on him, which is difficult to believe a new wolf, mostly lurking, would do (in my opinion).

I think it matches a new wolf quite well. Aggravate an easy target, generating noise and seeming active.[/quote]

[Gaspar]

Couple quick thoughts, I had unexpected lunch company and haven't gotten to my 3rd hunch yet...

• I disagree with about 2/3 of what Lewwyn said but I'm going to continue my ignoring Lewwyn until later policy.
  
• On Meiz: To say that he follows zak and novice is overstating. To say that he frequently jumps in bed with them is more accurate. At least in the games I've played with him, I pay attention on a different level when I'm playing, of course.
  
• I don't get suspicion on Azza. He's one of my strongest village reads - sounds exactly how a new player who is trying would sound, IMO.
  
• Precisely the opposite of Arromir, specifically. He sounds like a new player who is just trying to survive. Could just miss the point of the game, could be scum. I report, you decide.
  

I'll get my 3rd hunch up a little later, need some more time to parse.

[Ichabod]

Following novice's lead doesn't necessarily mean backing every single vote he makes. About Selrahc (and someone else I didn't follow him on as well), I responded to that earlier when novice inquired about the same thing. Anything specific you find contradictory about this?

But why would you follow Novice in the first place if you already had a player which you suspected? That's the problem. You said you follow him becuase you didn't have you own leads, but as it turns out, you had a lead.

[Lewwyn]

Couple quick thoughts, I had unexpected lunch company and haven't gotten to my 3rd hunch yet...

Horndog?

• I disagree with about 2/3 of what Lewwyn said but I'm going to continue my ignoring Lewwyn until later policy.
  

Like?

[/quote]

[Ichabod]

[*]On Meiz: To say that he follows zak and novice is overstating. To say that he frequently jumps in bed with them is more accurate. At least in the games I've played with him, I pay attention on a different level when I'm playing, of course.

But what about the other things I pointed out about that specific post you quoted by Meiz, how does that fare with your suspicions of him?

[pindicator]

This is probably just a mistake by you, but, well, maybe people will make something of it. Serdoa jumped from me to Sareln, so how can you say it was from villager to villager. He didn't jump from you to Sareln.

You're right, it was a mistake. I thought he had been on me, probably because he had voted me day 1. Shows how close I was able to follow things

[Gaspar]

Regarding the post you quoted, it's interesting to notice that one of his defenses is against a post made by thestick. In my eyes, that points more to villager, but with the usual observations. And he is, at least a bit indirectly, approving of Novice's attack on thestick in that post, which goes against your initial argument.

I think this particular post you quoted goes against most of what you said about Meiz. He didn't use his usual links, he quoted instead, but that's it. But I agree thhat he's mostly lurking, or better, there were no posts made by him that called my attention, which is unusual. But he hasn't done anything too suspicious.

Ok. Firstly I don't think the fact that he's defending against a thestick post means anything at all - thestick's play was so... half-hearted I think he's just as likely to have attacked a wolf as a villager. Not to mention one of the traits most common to newbie wolves is they have a hard time going after villagers because they know they are innocent. So I don't believe there is anything at all in that interaction.

And meh - I guess I didn't explain it well (though I'd argue you don't want to hear me well, because you are either scum or pursuing vendetta.) I guess I just felt like it was a bland aggregation post, as opposed to his usual 47 link opus attacks. I pointed that post out because I was expecting to find that there, and instead found nothing. It was the closest thing I saw to typical Meiz and felt it still didn't measure up.