Gillette Diplomacy Thread: Dossiers, Scheming, and Puppet Strings

[scooter]

Sent the message an hour or so ago btw.

[Old Harry]

My feeling is they wouldn't violate that NAP. I suspect that had more to do with TEAM than us, if you want to think a certain team influenced the settling of that location. My gut is to trust that they honor the NAP - with TEAM showing hostility, there's good reason for them to want a safe border on our side.

Yeah, you're probably right, but I want to be able to say I told you so later...

Here's another I told you so: What if TEAM's aggression is an elaborate double bluff? :mad:"We're crazy so don't mess with us!":mad: while they don't bother with military... Although if it results in Trolls making axes and going to visit it could work out well for us!

Anyhow I'll just relax and watch you and Seven build our way into the lead - as the FBI says "Winners don't start ancient-era wars"

[scooter]

Menagerie responded:

Gillette,

I understand your point, but let me explain our position:

1. The area you pointed to is vital for us, because without it our core would be very vulnerable to an attack from that side, and we just can't afford that. We planned to put a border city E of Cow, not because it's especially good city (because it isn't) but just for needed defense purposes. We are sorry that Trolls planted a city on your backyard blocking your designed way to the middle, but we can't be a victim of this situation.

2. Please take into account that we moved our capital 2N of the position designed by the mapmaker, and you moved yours NW too. This single fact means that your territory is bigger than ours from the start. If we would draw a border between the designed starting points, the border would be further to the south, and the Gold area would be in dispute. We didn't want to let this fact spoils our relation, so in the name of friendship we didn't raise any claims to that Gold, we didn't haggle about it and any of the tiles closer to our starting point.

3. The same situation happened when you planted your second city on the border taking some our tiles. In the name of friendship we decided we won't be fussy about such details. We think that it would be fair, to return that favor now. Even if some of the tiles of the proposed border are closer to your capital now, (two grasslands E of Copper) they are of no great value, and it would be a fair exchange for two our grasslands taken by Blades of Glory, not to even mention about a bunch of tiles closer to our starting point.

We hope we come to an agreement on the border, and in such situation we would be happy to send you a detailed map of your fogged western territory.

PS: As to Pirates, I would call it a small misunderstanding on the borders. They decided that a fait accompli method is a better way than a simple talk. It costs them one unit and a bunch of worker turns, but we hope we can reach an agreement in the near future.

PS2: The map of the proposed border is in the attachment.

Menagerie Trois

My reaction goes something like: "-2: you guys are annoying"

The attached picture:



Pretty lousy IMO. Just too bad we're not in a great position of power here. Our warrior needs to hurry up and meet Pirates. Also, with ridiciulous offers like this, I can't imagine why they and Pirates ended up in a war. Really shocking stuff. I also like how they originally told us there were no resources west of Blades of Glory and they would take that land, and now we see here they lied to us because there's clearly a Wheat on the coast.

[scooter]

Btw, this offer reeks of LP in PB4 swindling people into terrible border agreements. Let's not fall victim to that here. I'm still thinking about how to respond, but we can't agree to cede all land north of the yellow lines IMO. That would be crazy.

I'm also surprised they would be in a war with one neighbor and then try to strong-arm your other neighbor with a dumb border agreement. But hey, if you're not interested in friends that's fine.

[scooter]

I also like how they originally told us there were no resources west of Blades of Glory and they would take that land, and now we see here they lied to us because there's clearly a Wheat on the coast.

In the west, we suggest that it passes directly west of Blades of Glory Deer to the coast (4 tiles), and the tiles on the border would be ours (there are no resources on the border).

In the east, we suggest that the border passes directly east of the mountain tile (north of Gold) to the lake (6 tiles) and the tiles on the border would be yours (there are no resources on the border neither).

Ok ok, they didn't directly lie, they just arbitrarily drew the lines in such a way that they could claim there are no resources on the border. I see. Very different. Nice try LP and company.

[YossarianLives]

I agree that this is a deal that does not work for us. It's unfortunate that we don't really have any plans to put a city up there anytime soon. With Stonehenge, they'll have an advantage in any culture wars up by our borders, so things might get dicey if we can't come to an agreement. I hope they're willing to be more flexible than they seem right now. You'd think they'd want to make sure they keep us happy, seeing as how their army is probably paper-thin with their resources going towards a wonder, and having a hot war on their other border.

[Merovech]

If nothing else, that wet wheat/silk combo should be ours. Also, 1E of the cows looks terrible unless there is seafood in the picture they are not showing (which seems likely). I'd much rather see them move that city to 1W of the cows, with them allowing us to plant a city somewhere east of the cow, probably with the wheat second ring. Perhaps that copper is not exactly "ours" so much as it is on the border between us, but we should at least get ever tile that touches that lake.

[YossarianLives]

Well, we have visibility on the lake and there is no seafood that I can tell. I don't see how a Menagerie city east of cows can be acceptable to us. I agree with Merovech that it has to be west of cows. Any Menagerie city up there is going to make the borders really ugly, though.

Do we know where exactly the Trolls planted their city? That screenshot we sent them looks like an optical illusion to me! I know it's because we turned off the fog, but where could that city possibly be?

[SevenSpirits]

Doesn't seem like we can coexist peacefully with both neighbors. Questions then are:

1) Who is more annoying? Team who settled up on us, or team who wants annoying border agreement?

2) Dispute things now, or later?

3) Be forthright, or backstab?

4) How to treat the team we will keep as friend, given we feel unfairly treated?

[scooter]

My thoughts:

1) Who is more annoying? Team who settled up on us, or team who wants annoying border agreement?

I would say the latter solely because I felt the Trolls were more reasonable. Menagerie seems to think they can fight Pirates, build Stonehenge, and demand a unreasonable border from us all at once. Nope. Trolls looked to a pretty even split. Also, we would like a solid ally going forward, and Trolls seems more likely:

A) They are more timely in their responses
B) They have kept promises - they notified us as soon as they met people, Menagerie neglected to do so upon meeting Pirates (we found out from Trolls instead). Basically, Trolls are at least reliable.
C) Trolls has not deceived us as far as I can tell. Menagerie's description of the land west of Blades of Glory was mildly deceitful. It may have been unintentional so I don't put too much weight on this one compared to the first two.

2) Dispute things now, or later?

Later. We're in no position to do so now. Best we could do is some sort of HA rush, and that seems..... ill-advised to say the least .

3) Be forthright, or backstab?

I would prefer primarily forthright. Our first enemy will get to say whatever they want to the people living in this game, and we don't need the rest of the teams knowing we've clearly stabbed somebody.

4) How to treat the team we will keep as friend, given we feel unfairly treated?

I don't think Trolls have been too unfair. It seems the pattern for everybody is to settle in a slightly clockwise manner. It's ideal for us to settle north. It's apparently ideal for Trolls to settle west. Menagerie seems uninterested in settling south (but interested in claiming it all for...later). I think this is just the odd map design at play here. Settling patterns are unnatural because every single resource has been put in a place you must reach for and nearly all the first-ring areas are crap. So I dunno, I don't have much to complain about with Trolls, and as long as they're at war with TEAM, I'm content to let them worry about that.

Would love to hear others thoughts on all this.