0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
I'm unsure how to react to them here. Any thoughts? I'm inclined to just say we're not interested in a border agreement given that we're much closer to these spots they're wanting. I know some of them may be closer or equal to their capital and all that, but the facts are we've settled this way, and they haven't as far as I can tell. We've got the land east of us more or less handled, so it makes sense for us to claim as much land this way as we can. They've expended resources on Henge and a war, so let's take advantage and get a little more than our fair share.
Basically, my gut says we should say we aren't willing to include a border agreement clause in any NAP agreement. Say it kinder than that of course, but that's the root of how I'm feeling here. Maybe we get lucky and still get a NAP with them, but if not, that's why we got archery and we're headed for horses. They may still sign a NAP anyways if we're convincing enough.
If we can't get what we consider a fair border proposal, I don't see much choice.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
I think they are looking for us to make a suggestion. How about drawing something more favourable to us and let them be the bad guys and turn it down? We're happy to keep stringing out the discussion aren't we?
(October 16th, 2012, 19:10)Old Harry Wrote: I think they are looking for us to make a suggestion. How about drawing something more favourable to us and let them be the bad guys and turn it down? We're happy to keep stringing out the discussion aren't we?
I think this is a good idea. Talking doesn't mean they aren't building up a military, but it's a heck of a better sign than not talking.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
Just to be clear - I'm reading that they are suggesting this:
(sorry the image is getting a bit mangled now - green is M3, blue is us)
Which we aren't happy with. We're okay with the western city, but not the cow/copper eastern one.
I think Scooter is right, their suggestion is that we stop settling totally and shut ourselves out of the middle, which we aren't going to accept.
So how about a counter offer where we have the wheat in return for letting them have cow/copper (should it be a tile further north?):
or where we have the copper (perhaps a tile further north than this?):
They aren't likely to accept either, but if they do then we've done better than we would by racing for teritory and placing non-optimal cities.
Scooter could say something like "I've tried to convince the others, but they're not buying it - if we're going to have a border agreement it's got to look more like this - we're still happy to give you an X turn NAP though" ?
Hm, ok I would be vaguely OK with those. If it was my solo game I'd probably just say "sorry, no border deal, speak up if you want that NAP and have a great day" and push in my chips that they wouldn't do anything about it. However, I'm not real comfortable doing that in a game where more people than me have a significant stake in the game. Also, if literally all 4 teams are fighting each other right now, our best bet may be to try something like the above and continue our silly farmer's gambit.
I actually don't think it's impossible that they accept one of the above. I'd really like input from several team members on this one.
I like the second option as long as we can move our city 1N. Now, that causes overlapping BFCs, but the two tiles overlapped are a dry grassland hill (okay) and a dry plains (very weak), and I don't mind giving them those tiles with their Henge culture. The main benefit of 1N would be the wet wheat.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
Ok I'm chatting with HitAnyKey for Menagerie now. Their war with Pirates is definitely real. Pirates pink dotted them and HAK basically said he doesn't see a peaceful solution because it's such an aggressive and important plant... There's a chance he's lying, but I believe he was telling the truth (I think you'll agree when I finish chatting and paste the log). So basically, I think we're in an amazing position here if this is true. I have no idea what all the other teams are thinking right now getting into all these stupid wars, but let's be aware of our position and maximize it for sure.
So the point is they're not really equipped to screw with us, so we don't need to take a crappy deal just to get a NAP. We don't even really need the NAP in my opinion. I'll try to have that log up soon.
![[Image: borders.png]](https://dl.dropbox.com/s/6vancrskyb05mm6/borders.png)
![[Image: borders%20offer%201.png]](https://dl.dropbox.com/s/n0xgudvx8niw5pc/borders%20offer%201.png)
![[Image: borders%20offer%202.png]](https://dl.dropbox.com/s/bhyyfnqigm6lphx/borders%20offer%202.png)