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The Dark arts - C&D Master Thread

#371
October 16th, 2012, 09:26
Sullla Offline
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That sounds like good detective work to me; if the GNP numbers fell like that, it was probably the end of teams researching techs with multiple prereq discounts, and Animal Husbandry fits very logically into that position. Spanish Apolyton needing 17 turns to research anything is simply hilarious. [Image: lol.gif]

I've fixed the title of the thread as requested. Many thanks to kjn & regoarrarr.
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#372
October 16th, 2012, 09:48
regoarrarr Offline
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(October 16th, 2012, 09:26)Sullla Wrote: I've fixed the title of the thread as requested. Many thanks to kjn & regoarrarr.

Sullla made a funny!!! cool

In honor, I took a look around the C&D spreadsheet and made a row on the Tech sheet that lists total beakers for each team. I did not see that anywhere and of course that is useful information.

Sullla has commented a few times that the other teams are quite a bit behind on techs compared to us, but here's the actual numbers, which are pretty eye-opening.

Us: 1188
Apolyton: 990 (Up Fishing, Writing?, Down Pottery, Poly and BW)
CivFr: 828 (Down Polytheism and AH)
CivPlayers: 792 (Down Polytheism and BW)
Spanish Apolyton: 774 (Down Mysticism, Polytheism, Pottery)
CivFanatics: 756 (Down Hunting, AH, Polytheism)
UniversCiv: 720 (Up Fishing, Down Pottery, Polytheism, BW)
WPCiv: 720 (Also Up Fishing, Down Pottery, Polytheism, BW)
CivForum.de: 684 (Down Pottery, AH, Polytheism)

Uh....

Now granted, we're a bit ahead due to us having just discovered a tech this past turn, whereas teams that are in the middle of a tech may have ~100 or so beakers invested in not finished techs that don't show up. On the other hand, 3 other teams also discovered techs this turn.
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#373
October 16th, 2012, 10:19
kjn Offline
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Heh. Look at the bottom of the tech sheet: it lists total beakers, delta with us, power from tech, score from tech, estimated beakers per turn, and estimated delta in beakers per turn with us.

To continue with some more C&D work, the rival worst power didn't rise despite CivFr doing a 1-pop whip last turn. It might be that there is another 21k-power and they emergency-whipped a warrior, but I doubt that. No idea what they are doing right now.

Another interesting thing is that land rose with 78 tiles. We know there has been plenty of overlap between the first and second cities of each team, and that third-ring adds 16 tiles at the most to the empire. CivFr has already expanded, and CFC expanded last turn.

We know that we and CFC added 13 tiles with our third-ring borders; and CFC added 15 tiles back on T25. This means that every team but CFC (SPI) and CivFr (CRE) expanded their borders this turn, making CFC the new rival worst.

This also means that the only teams that are in Slavery besides us right now are the Spanish (settled T0), the Germans (settled T1 and SPI), and CivFr (CRE).
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#374
October 16th, 2012, 10:22
regoarrarr Offline
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(October 16th, 2012, 10:19)kjn Wrote: Heh. Look at the bottom of the tech sheet: it lists total beakers, delta with us, power from tech, score from tech, estimated beakers per turn, and estimated delta in beakers per turn with us.

Ah nice. I was surprised that it hadn't been put on. Guess I just didn't scroll down far enough lol

Really think that Apolyton tech on T49 has to be BW instead of Writing but I assume the power increases just didn't support that?
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#375
October 16th, 2012, 10:30
kjn Offline
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On T49 we had a global power increase of 5000, with a rival worst change of 18000 to 20000. CivPlayers also gained 1000 power from pop. So there is simply no room for Apolyton getting BW there.

Remember that Apolyton chose Elizabeth, so early libraries sorta make sense for them.
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#376
October 16th, 2012, 13:39 (This post was last modified: October 16th, 2012, 13:40 by Sullla.)
Sullla Offline
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Yeah there simply hasn't been enough of a global Power increase to assign Bronze Working to most of these teams. Half of them are still missing BW tech! This bodes well for our chances to land Stonehenge, as many of the teams cannot chop or whip at all. It also matches up with the revolt data that kjn posted - only 3 revolts into Slavery civic. Suggests that most teams just don't have the tech. (I think many teams were completely unprepared for the expensive tech costs on this map. There are a lot of ways to botch the opening to this game, and few correct ones. Two or three of the teams have crippled themselves and are virtually out of the running to win already.)

Here is the tech comparison data at the bottom of our spreadsheet for the curious:

[Image: ISDG-178s.jpg]

Over the first 50 turns, we're sitting just about 50% above the average team's research pace. Yes, this is based on incomplete assumptions and all that, but it's still pretty staggering regardless. The fact that we're also leading in Food and Total Pop (despite working all those 2/0 cottages while other teams were working 0/4 mines) should give a good indicator of how far ahead we really are.

Now we need to keep snowballing that early lead. Hopefully Stonehenge is up next. [Image: biggrin.gif]
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#377
October 17th, 2012, 00:53 (This post was last modified: October 17th, 2012, 00:54 by Nicolae Carpathia.)
Nicolae Carpathia Offline
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You'd think working 2/0/3 cottages would give more food/pop than the 0/4/0 mines wink (it's not like our production numbers are particularly high).
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#378
October 17th, 2012, 22:31
Merovech Offline
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Do we know which team or teams have the 50GNP and 19 MFG? Not a good sign if they are the same team, imo. [Image: ISDG-180s.jpg]
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1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.

2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.

3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.

4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
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#379
October 17th, 2012, 22:52
Tyrmith Offline
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How hard is it to mask C&D data? Could some of the teams be only working their real tiles when they end their turn? Obviously some data (ie them researching a tech, pop increases) can't be hidden, but can't some be hidden?
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#380
October 17th, 2012, 22:59
Merovech Offline
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(October 17th, 2012, 22:52)Tyrmith Wrote: How hard is it to mask C&D data? Could some of the teams be only working their real tiles when they end their turn? Obviously some data (ie them researching a tech, pop increases) can't be hidden, but can't some be hidden?

Wouldn't those count as the tiles that they are working at the start of their next turn and therefore show up anyways, or can they change the tile configuration after ending turn before the turn rolls without affecting their yields?
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.

1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.

2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.

3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.

4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
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