League of Legends General Discussion Thread

[Gold Ergo Sum]

Yeah, but I suspect the average player on here is better informed than the average LoL player, so the informational disadvantage probably disadvantages our players to a greater extent. While I have no evidence for this, I would bet most people on this site are tactically and strategically superior, but mechanically inferior, to the average player at their proper elo.

Well that isn't saying much. The average LoL player is terrible.

Hence the "at their proper elo." Theoretically, they should all be only as terrible as you at your proper elo.

[spellman]

Another new Season 3 item: http://i.imgur.com/BSjP3.jpg

TOWER DIVE ALL DAY

[Gold Ergo Sum]

Seems like some junglers might benefit most from a 6-21-3 setup, with attack speed and minion damage from the offensive tree, and the movement speed bonus from the support tree.

[Cull]

So, I have a very specific question I'd like to posit to the group. I'm hoping for detailed analysis on the why of your answers.

Why does Pantheon not get higher-level play?

My intuition is because he doesn't scale as well as other heroes. The ult does give global presence but isn't amazing. He has a small amount of CC and his cone dmg forces him immobile while firing. He can off-tank, but not nearly as well as Jax absorbing/dodging everything.

Why don't people play Garen? Brand?

In competitive play, its because they are safer, better picks. Sure, you can find a team comp that makes that champion work better then the accepted norm, but people pick about the same team comp, with rarely any divergence. Not only that, even if you can play Panth at a Froggen-Anivia like level, thats one champ you can play AMAZING well. That one champ is weaker then other champs 9/10 times. Very few people are going to invest time in that losing proposition. In terms of Panth himself, he pretty much has to go mid lane. Panth top gets crushed. In mid, TF does 10x more then Panth, provides AP dmg, more CC, more dmg, more global presence, and more range. Other AP mids provide more after 30 minutes in almost all categories as well.

In non-competitive play, people play Panth, just a lot less then others because people don't want to invest time in a, frankly, weaker champ. See Arch Angoloid(sp?) on the NA server for a high-level Panth.

[spellman]

So, I have a very specific question I'd like to posit to the group. I'm hoping for detailed analysis on the why of your answers.

Why does Pantheon not get higher-level play?

Why don't people play Garen? Brand?

In competitive play, its because they are safer, better picks.

Right, I understand that, but mechanically/mathematically why? What makes his kit/match-up so much weaker?

Fundamentally I'm trying to figure out why certain champs seem to float to the top versus others and utilize that framework for understanding other champs.

Figuring out why certain champs are picked it much easier. The utility of Amumu and Alistar are obvious. The damage, reposition, and scaling of Ez, Corki, and Vayne are clear. But trying to tease out their strength/advantage against the discarded choices is harder for me.

[Cull]

So the idea behind most Panth is to dominate mid lane and gank side lanes with ulti/force pressure middle with constant push+pressure on lane/jungle. He does this well by high base dmg on spear and stun early game against traditionally low armor APs, with ulti pressure lvl 6 to late game. His top lane is super weak with no sustain, no escape, inability to come out in trades, high mana costs on harass, melee, and less ulti pressure(top isolated, mid lane=middle of map). If mid lane Panth works, either you can win off that before enemy team can catch up or they catch up. If they catch up, Panth falls off. This stuff is pretty much accepted across the board.

His gap closer is a high CD, low range, low duration stun that has no base dmg. His main damage comes from Q/spear. Q has meh range, only slightly ahead the shortest ranged AD. E does very little, outside of trying to get range(since you blew your 8-9 sec CD gapcloser earlier) to do the last ticks of dmg or in an AoE with certain comps on 2+ enemies. You can't ulti in, as if you don't build damage you do nothing but 1 second stun so that build is out, if you build dmg+GA you either blow like 2 CDs to suicide your ga/probably you or you don't have GA and you just die. Certain comps can work like Amumu+Sona with Panth, but then you suffer same problems as before.

What that translates into is past lane stomping stage, his teamfight is jump in with GA/wtf tank build, melt, try to stun someone if you aren't being kited to death, and die. You just kited for days with CC/gap closer being 0. You might get 2, maybe 3 spears off. This is caused mechanically by his ability to get kited with one of the worst gap closers in the game.

edit: i just realize i suck to answer this question, since i play so long and just assume certain things that everybody should know. like i 100% should elaborate on like everything i said and give comparison and stuff. too lzy. sorry spellman.

[spellman]

edit: i just realize i suck to answer this question, since i play so long and just assume certain things that everybody should know. like i 100% should elaborate on like everything i said and give comparison and stuff. too lzy. sorry spellman.

Don't be. That was actually exactly what I wanted. A clean breakdown of the weaknesses with specific values (CDs too long, most dmg from Q but it's super short, why he can't survive on top due to sustain/trade/escape failings) and how some build attempts would perform (can't tank as efficiently, bad innate dmg, gap closer too weak to avoid kiting).

Any other thoughts on this line of thinking? Or points that were missed out? Or how Panth can potentially (but unlikely) work?


My main point of comparison when mulling over this was Jax. He has some similarities (gap closer, shield, melee bruiser), but his kit is just straight superior imo. His leap includes excellent damage for trades and lategame or even escapes. Combined with empower provides great bonus damage for trades. This dodge and stun cover good range and help his tank while getting into the backline. His passive can mean insane IAS in longer fights. And his ult amps his damage even more. He lacks the sustain of other top/jungle champs, but lategame becomes a scaling terror.

[Dantski]

edit: i just realize i suck to answer this question, since i play so long and just assume certain things that everybody should know. like i 100% should elaborate on like everything i said and give comparison and stuff. too lzy. sorry spellman.

Don't be. That was actually exactly what I wanted. A clean breakdown of the weaknesses with specific values (CDs too long, most dmg from Q but it's super short, why he can't survive on top due to sustain/trade/escape failings) and how some build attempts would perform (can't tank as efficiently, bad innate dmg, gap closer too weak to avoid kiting).

Any other thoughts on this line of thinking? Or points that were missed out? Or how Panth can potentially (but unlikely) work?


My main point of comparison when mulling over this was Jax. He has some similarities (gap closer, shield, melee bruiser), but his kit is just straight superior imo. His leap includes excellent damage for trades and lategame or even escapes. Combined with empower provides great bonus damage for trades. This dodge and stun cover good range and help his tank while getting into the backline. His passive can mean insane IAS in longer fights. And his ult amps his damage even more. He lacks the sustain of other top/jungle champs, but lategame becomes a scaling terror.

Well Panth's ultimate is just far inferior to the globals of other champions, it has a windup time and people can move significantly away from where you selected to jump by the time the circle even appears on the ground. After that they can still evade you to a certain degree. So the ult is unreliable for getting on a target (unlike Nocturne/Shen) and takes too long to animate. Panth is better in soloQ because in a team environment when everyone is on voice chat, people can inform their teammates when Panth starts to jump and they can backoff a second or two earlier.

Like Cull said, Panth's items are rather unclear too. He isn't a AD assassin like Talon able to burst someone down and his DPS over time is lower than a Darius/Irelia pick. His reliable CC is equivalent to Sion only it has a longer CD and poorer scaling. Riot has a major problem with Panth just like they do with Vladimir/Mordekaiser/Katarina, these champions are either doing too much damage or not enough and currently Panth is not doing enough. Riot needs to rethink his W, E and R even if its just in CD's, AD ratios and animation speed because after Panth does his W/E/Q combo he's got nothing and those skills don't do enough.

What Cull has written applies pretty well to why Garen isn't played in tournaments. I don't believe Garen is underpowered right now personally, I think he's pretty good but unfortunately Garen 2.0 exists (AKA Darius) and Darius just does everything Garen does plus more (ult that resets + low mana costs + bleeding passive). Heck if we don't see a big nerf to Darius sometime in the next 2-3 months I'd be very surprised.

[Deceptus]

Any other thoughts on this line of thinking? Or points that were missed out? Or how Panth can potentially (but unlikely) work?

About the best role I can see him fit in a team is similar to the reason people run Evelynn mid lane. She's a squishy melee caster with extreme ganking potential who falls off in the late game. So she's ran as a roamer first and foremost who focuses on dominating skirmishes and ganking lanes and then later on exists only to blow her entire kit on as many people as possible and then probably die. She probably wouldn't see play in, say, CLG.EU, whose strategies are extremely Froggen-centric for all stages of the game (their comps are built around Froggen's ability to carry with heavy scaling mid lane champions, not Froggen helping everyone get to their late game; about the only exception to this I've seen is his Lee Sin).

If you are interested in Pantheon in high Elo solo queue play, check out Arch Angeloid.

About the only thing I can say about Garen vs Darius is that Garen utterly craps on Darius in laning phase in a typical matchup, but Darius does have numerous other counters that are more useful to the team (Jayce, perhaps Irelia and Nidalee). His late game isn't great (in comparison to Jax, who deals really well with Darius after a few items) and his lack of gap closers is crippling against good AD carries. Darius is IMHO mostly an answer to certain melees or a great addition to a pick-focused composition, but does he need nerfs? Ehhh, I'm very averse to the idea.

[v8mark]

About the only thing I can say about Garen vs Darius is that Garen utterly craps on Darius in laning phase in a typical matchup, but Darius does have numerous other counters that are more useful to the team (Jayce, perhaps Irelia and Nidalee). His late game isn't great (in comparison to Jax, who deals really well with Darius after a few items) and his lack of gap closers is crippling against good AD carries. Darius is IMHO mostly an answer to certain melees or a great addition to a pick-focused composition, but does he need nerfs? Ehhh, I'm very averse to the idea.

Darius is in a good place right now... he destroys 800 elo people who don't know how to kite or build armor against him. Against everyone else, he's meh because of the problems Seyruun outlined.