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(January 8th, 2013, 11:29)mostly_harmless Wrote: I am currently sampling some older works. Asimov's Foundation is not very agreeable to me. Larry Niven's Ringworld is more to my taste. Heinlein, despite all the political critique he is getting, has produced some amazingly well written stories, Friday, Stranger in a Strange Land and Starship Troopers (its far better than the movie, believe me).
The reason Heinlein gets a lot of political critique are quite simple, and really a type of praise:
One, he is still very readable today. Simply put still a very good and enjoyable storyteller.
Two, he has political (other) views that are made overt and can be critiqued. Eg, the reason that Heinlein is a target for much feminist critique isn't that he is a misogynist or anti-feminist (at least not more than any other white men of similar background, probably less so), but that he has actual women in his stories that actually get real characterisations. Compare Asimov, where there is no room for feminist critique beyond "where are the women" (besides Susan Calvin that is, but then she hardly has any personality).
Three, I'm really going to say that anyone reading Starship Troopers should read The Forever War (by Joe Haldeman) and Redliners (by David Drake) to get some opposing viewpoints from people who knew real soldiering on war and society.
That said, most people seem to agree that early Heinlein is a lot better than late Heinlein - what differs are where they place the line between early and late. 
Furthermore, I consider that forum views should be fluid in width
January 8th, 2013, 14:25
(This post was last modified: January 8th, 2013, 14:26 by Viqsi.)
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(January 8th, 2013, 04:59)novice Wrote: My in-laws gave me The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion
I'm enjoying it so far.
That one was also recommended to me (and to my parents)) by my grandparents while I was visiting them in Sarasota about two weeks ago. Haven't picked up a copy yet, tho, but it seems to have become popular among family members.
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(January 8th, 2013, 04:59)novice Wrote: My in-laws gave me The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion
Does he use The Other arguement? If not he's an idiot and I refuse to read his book.
Darrell
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Whats The Other argument?
Or am I an idiot? 
Erebus in the Balance - a FFH Modmod based around balancing and polishing FFH for streamlined competitive play.
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(January 8th, 2013, 17:55)darrelljs Wrote: (January 8th, 2013, 04:59)novice Wrote: My in-laws gave me The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion
Does he use The Other arguement? If not he's an idiot and I refuse to read his book.
Darrell
hooray for our side!
Please don't go. The drones need you. They look up to you.
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(January 8th, 2013, 18:05)Qgqqqqq Wrote: Whats The Other argument?
Once you've categorized someone as belonging to The Other, it becomes an imperative to attack and destory them. Reasonable compromise is out the window, since any agreement on any issue is tacit support of the The Other, a taboo. Its why the priest at our church can somehow come out in support of the NRA despite the near certainty that this is not what Jesus would do. My favorite The Other spoof is South Park's "Go God Go" episodes, where Cartman, unable to wait for the Wii, freezes himself. He wakes up, Buck Rogers style, far into the future where the entire world is Atheist, and divided into warring factions over The Great Question, which happens to be the best name for the atheists to call themselve by.
Darrell
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(January 9th, 2013, 17:28)darrelljs Wrote: (January 8th, 2013, 18:05)Qgqqqqq Wrote: Whats The Other argument?
Once you've categorized someone as belonging to The Other, it becomes an imperative to attack and destory them. Reasonable compromise is out the window, since any agreement on any issue is tacit support of the The Other, a taboo. Its why the priest at our church can somehow come out in support of the NRA despite the near certainty that this is not what Jesus would do. My favorite The Other spoof is South Park's "Go God Go" episodes, where Cartman, unable to wait for the Wii, freezes himself. He wakes up, Buck Rogers style, far into the future where the entire world is Atheist, and divided into warring factions over The Great Question, which happens to be the best name for the atheists to call themselve by.
Darrell
um, by what criteria are you deciding that Jesus is anti-NRA?
Please don't go. The drones need you. They look up to you.
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(January 9th, 2013, 17:34)Bigger Wrote: um, by what criteria are you deciding that Jesus is anti-NRA?
<debates internally answering this question becuase it just can't end well>
The whole turn the other cheek thing from the Sermon on the Plain.
I should disclaim I'm not actually a Christian altough I was raised one. My wife is Catholic, therefore my kids are being raised as such and hence my knowledge of what at least one current priest thinks about gun rights. I'm sure arguements can be made that Jesus thinks we should all be packing heat, and I'll listen to them politely, but this is as far as I'm willing to go to make the counter arguement .
ObOnTopic: Read A Fine Balance, you won't be disappointed.
Darrell
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(January 9th, 2013, 18:40)darrelljs Wrote: (January 9th, 2013, 17:34)Bigger Wrote: um, by what criteria are you deciding that Jesus is anti-NRA?
<debates internally answering this question becuase it just can't end well>
The whole turn the other cheek thing from the Sermon on the Plain.
I should disclaim I'm not actually a Christian altough I was raised one. My wife is Catholic, therefore my kids are being raised as such and hence my knowledge of what at least one current priest thinks about gun rights. I'm sure arguements can be made that Jesus thinks we should all be packing heat, and I'll listen to them politely, but this is as far as I'm willing to go to make the counter arguement .
ObOnTopic: Read A Fine Balance, you won't be disappointed.
Darrell
well I haven't seen you make any argument or counter argument :P.
I don't see why turn the other cheek would suggest gun control. It doesnt mean Christian's should make themselves victims, and it certainly doesn't suggest that Christians should force other people to be victims.
also, you're an idiot and I refuse to read your book 
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Since we're all giant nerds here and seem to exclusively read the Sci-Fi genre, I'll recommend some of my favourites, that can stand on their own without a ton of qualifying statements.
Red Mars by Kim Stanley Robinson. A classic hard sci fi staple, but unlike so many others, the story is focused on the interesting characters. What kind of messed up person would be both intellectually brilliant, socially sociable, yet lack the terrestrial rooting to blast themselves off a new world, knowing they will never return? The characters are so well realised and yet fun to read as they play off against each other. The science of it isn't bad, as everyone struggles with their vision of how they will realise the future of the solar system. It's wonderfully optimistic.
Blindsight by Peter Watts. A recent hard sci fi nightmare. Peter Watts has a distinctive voice, he has gazed a baleful eye over the future and found it wanting in its ability to provide for society. Blindsight is an extended biological existential crisis. Unlike so many other modern transhumanist tales, the very act of human dignity and agency is considered passe. Who cares if it's a post-scarcity society, you are either so heavily augmented that you are barely human, or so irrelevant that you're better off uploading yourself into simulspace. And what if all these advances are irrelevant to humanity's existence, what if the only way to attain a survival advantage in this cold universe is transform ourselves into Von Neumanns, as has happened to every single other intelligent tool-using species in this universe?
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