WW 19 Game Thread - Mobster Mayhem - GAME OVER

[waterbat]

@pindicator: That's what I was trying to say to llewyn. Lewwyn had given Azza a village lean, but accused zak of going after easy targets. I pointed out that if zak wanted targets, why didn't he pile on azza?

Similarly, if zak was village, why not scum hunt on azza?

So as a pairing scum-scum makes sense. Just to keep in mind when one flips.

[pindicator]

Waterbat, i think i am starting to see how a zak-azza pair does make sense.

Why not join us on zak?

[zakalwe]

I don't have time to look up those post numbers, Pindicator, but it sounds like you're cherry picking. I haven't tried to discredit anyone. I just call out bad arguments and echo good ones.

[Serdoa]

But i asked you about Azza b/c you've never questioned him or his motives. You've commented in post 1275 that yoy wanted to hear Azza's reason for using the picks, and then in 1330 said you agreed that Azza gave bad reasons for why he attempted to steal, but you never follow that up with questions of your own against him.

1275 is a direct answer to me. In 1330 he answer again directly to me. And tbh I don't think there was anything more to ask Azza about this. He gave his reasons, we still think they are bad, but they won't change simply for that. If they did, I'd actually be certain that we found a scum. I do see your point if you mean that he should have questioned him in general more about his play to maybe find more scumtells though.

Further, in the same post that you said Azza gave bad reasons you then discredit the case on him as being "for not coming up with a bunch of meta theories on how to exploit the lock picks." You also discredit the case like this in post 1326.

Well, he discredits Selrahcs point, which was indeed mostly that Azza didn't come up with several theories how to use the lockpicks best. My whole case was more along the lines that his reason for using them on Tasunke is bad / tries to garner sympathy and does not sound honest. But if he has good ideas how to use the lockpicks I can see why he wouldn't necessarily post that in the thread.

Anyhow, I don't think it is true that he discredits the case against Azza in full. Only parts of it. What I think is ok - at least I like zak as a sounding board to get a feel if I start to get tunnel vision.

Additional curiosities:

1068 & 1205 - more defending Azza? questioning his attackers

I don't agree with those points. He questions MJW in 1068, what I did as well and I think for a good reason. And in 1205 he asks me why I want to lynch Azza and if I believe it to be better to get the lockpicks out of the game. He adds that he wants to lynch Merovech. Thats seems pretty neutral to me.

805, 809, 811 - you never doubt azza's reveal and 816 even sets up a situation where Azza could be wrong by being jailed. Sounds like you're unsure about Tasunke but sure about Azza

805 - zak states that he can't understand why Tasunke played like he did
809 - 3 minutes later zak adds on to his post, explaining why Tasunke can't have been jailed and states that the only way that Azza says the truth and Tasunke isn't lying is that Azza was blocked by a mysterious item
811 - 2 minutes after that, zak asks Azza how he can know that he wasn't jailed by Bigger
816 - 6 minutes later, zak quotes the order of night actions and asks BRick to verify if Azza could have been jailed

Also not forget that Azza states in his reveal that he was not blocked. So, I can see how this flurry of posts is zak actually thinking. I could as well be scum, realizing that he should question Azza about the jailing. But pindicator has one point here: zak never questioned if Azza could be lying. He always assumed he says the truth. Now, there is one point to this though: Scum has not reason to lie in this case. They would trade themselves 1 for 1, even the gun isn't worth this. So he is insofar right that you don't have to ask "Is he lieing maybe?" but just "could he have been blocked?".

-------

All in all, I think there are intersting points you bring up, but certainly not enough to make a quick run at zak 2 hours before lynch IMO. Also, I am not sure if you are not actually scum together with Azza and try to get zak lynched to clear him when zak is villager. You are already now trying to tell us there would be a connection. I can see how that gets changed if zak is villager to "Oh well, I guess I was wrong. At least that means that Azza is not scum either." More eloquently of course.

[pindicator]

Yep, just cherry picking away. Totally cherry picked by going to the scrapper, looking at your posts, and searching for every time Azza's name came up. So cherry picked by listing all the posts where you discuss Azza and all ZERO of the posts where you push him or question him.

Anybody can look this up, and if anybody finds something where you do push Azza i will drop my vote and apologize profusely.

By the way, way to dodge the question YET AGAIN

[pindicator]

Serdoa, i've been pushing zak since day 2. I can respect people don't see it my way, even if it is a little frustrating

[Serdoa]

Btw: I really don't think Selrahc should dodge the lynch yet again. Even if he is village. Bigger said once that RB-village is not lynching the lurkers and he is right with this. And that allows "lazy" villager-play that ultimately is the reason why village has such a bad win-ratio at RB. Too many players seem to just skim the thread and don't write anything or only 4-5 posts each game-day. Scum can to easily hide in that.

But it is not only Selrahc. The same is true for Mattimeo (24 posts, really? is the tracker faulty or has he really posted less than Rowain?). And uberfish is following closely with 53. Don't get me wrong, I know that often there are RL-reasons that prevent someone to post. And less posts with more content are actually preferred (so this is not a request that players start to spam in the thread). But if there are nearly no posts and those that are there are rather low-content, it gets hard to justify why not to lynch / vig that player.

[Selrahc]

Hum.

Well, I'm actually around for todays potential mislynch on me, so I might as well.

I have the Cloak. I watched Novice night 1, Serdoa night 2. On both nights they were unvisited. If you think I'm lying on that then by all means call me out.

If people are dead set on lynching me, I would request that they do it tomorrow and I'll hand off the cloak to the villagers choice of person. The cloak represents a really good chance to catch scum in this game situation, and I'd hate to see it lost to the village.


Now I'd prefer you not lynch me at all. I can't really complain about today though. I haven't really put tremendous amounts of energy into defending myself. Today feels like an inertia lynch more than anything. I haven't really seen any compelling arguments against me. Just a litany of minor complaints, but because they've built up over several days people have been willing to finally go along with them.

Azza I feel is a much more sensible candidate though. He has been even less forthcoming than me, and his tone and reasoning behind his item use are very poor.

[Serdoa]

Serdoa, i've been pushing zak since day 2. I can respect people don't see it my way, even if it is a little frustrating

Just be aware that - especially with zak - one is easily getting tunnel-vision. I wanted to lynch him WW18 (Tasunkes game, I think that was 18) despite him being village and needed some time to actually get off him. And in an earlier WW I got him lynched (he was village of course...), and again I didn't want to get off him, even after it became obvious that I am in tunnel-vision. I just believed everyone telling me that is just not seeing it. And his posts - calm, sometimes seeming condescendingly - didn't help.

[MJW (ya that one)]

Hum.

Well, I'm actually around for todays potential mislynch on me, so I might as well.

I have the Cloak. I watched Novice night 1, Serdoa night 2. On both nights they were unvisited. If you think I'm lying on that then by all means call me out.

If people are dead set on lynching me, I would request that they do it tomorrow and I'll hand off the cloak to the villagers choice of person. The cloak represents a really good chance to catch scum in this game situation, and I'd hate to see it lost to the village.


Now I'd prefer you not lynch me at all. I can't really complain about today though. I haven't really put tremendous amounts of energy into defending myself. Today feels like an inertia lynch more than anything. I haven't really seen any compelling arguments against me. Just a litany of minor complaints, but because they've built up over several days people have been willing to finally go along with them.

Azza I feel is a much more sensible candidate though. He has been even less forthcoming than me, and his tone and reasoning behind his item use are very poor.

zakalwe just to piss Serdoa off.