WW20: Legend of the Undercity

[Ichabod]

And lastly on some others:

Flug does resemble thestick in a ww16. I'm certainly not going to defend him. thestick, however, had a well established baseline, I know absolutely nothing about flug and I'm willing to give him a day to get his bearings - the "don't lynch" newbies isn't a pity thing, its for the village, to prevent mislynches of players we don't have a baseline on.

Plus, honestly, I hate the RB meta of always going after the low hanging fruit in the first few days, and I don't want to participate in that.

A mislynch is a mislynch and mislynching someone we can't read anyway is better for the village than lynching someone we can read much better. Also, when we lynched you D1 you also hated the RB meta, despite that we didn't go for the low hanging fruit in those cases.

If Flug_auto is town, he’s not doing a good job of proving it. If he’s a wolf, he’s not doing a good job of hiding it. Either way, I’m not too keen on lynching him, because he doesn’t feel like a threat. We can always get him later, and it’s the wolves that swim -beneath- the waves that scare me.

Bad reasoning Gazglum. If we believe someone is a wolf and he is the strongest read we have, we lynch him. Postponing him to lynch someone else on whom we have a weaker read is just dumb. Not lynching someone we believe to be a wolf because we fear the other wolves more is just ... I have no words for this. It makes no sense.

I think that Day 1 voting is a lot more random than people like to pretend. I guess mostly it comes down to noticing deviations from people’s normal playstyle, and not being too familiar with everyone here, I’m not able to do much psychoanalysing there. But I don’t like this reasoning from GaiusMarius

Actually nearly everyone likes to pretend that Day1 is a crapshoot. Especially the wolves. Makes it easier to hide. Only in WW18 I drew out a wolf Day1 and in WW19 several players again drew out a wolf. Day 1 is not a crapshoot, but only if village is actually thinking instead of just not paying attention because it is sooo random. It is not.

What information is there to share? None of us has information yet, except about our alignment and power. It seems obvious to me that Flug can’t have any special information that made him pick those names, he’s just fishing in the dark. Flug’s clearly erratic and it was a weird thing to say, but pressuring him seems a bit pointless, while jumping on the lynch-wagon for the guy who is perhaps playing less well than others seems cruel at best, and wolfy at worst.

Thats again not true. This game is only about what everyone is posting. Thats the way the village finds the scum. It is not cruel to point that out and it is not cruel nor wolfy to vote for the one who is giving the strongest reads. I might disagree that this is flug by now, but the reason you condemn his voters is still bad.

I don’t know if Flug is a wolf or not – I think that he’s playing badly and that makes it hard to know. I think he could well be a wolf, and if (for example) he doesn't give a measured response sometime in the rest of this day then I will switch my vote to him.

First you condemn everyone who votes for flug, now you state you will vote for him if he isn't answering. Funny how quickly you turned around on that one.

But I also think that, wolf or not, there are other wolves voting for him. If Flug is town, he makes a great distraction for us to lynch on Day 1, and I think some of the wolves will be encouraging it. If Flug is a wolf, then I think the rest of his team are going to be heading into panic mode about his play-style and will be looking to shut him up/distance themselves.

Thats expecting that a wolf-team is always playing rational. That is not the case, no matter how often someone tries to tell otherwise. Wolves often enough try to save one of theirs, even if it would be rationally better to let him get lynched. See Selrahc last game, whom the wolves really did not want to get lynched on D1, no matter the cost. And if flug is not around, what seems the case, wolves can't shut him up either.

BrickAstrley, Lewwyn, Novice and/or Pindicator are the enemies of the Empress's crown. Trust me, I know this kind, been once myself.

I will agree that this is a very scummy post. flug seems to be trying to throw out names because, what he later claims, in an attempt to try and see what this stirs up with the rest of people. However, this seems to scream almost too blatantly to actually be scum, because he's doing such a poor job of it. I mean, if he was scum, surely the others on the scum team would have told him he was doing something idotic, right?

Yes, they probably would. After it happened. I don't know but it seems you are the second player now that expects that the wolf team can tell one of theirs BEFORE he is doing something stupid that he shouldn't. I have never seen a wolf team run every single one of their posts first through the wolf thread before it is posted in the actual game thread, so why would you expect that they could have stopped him before he posted it?

That said, my vote still remained on him and still does for the time being. Why? Because I do not see any of the other leading candidates to be a good one to lynch right now. I think the Meiz case was too related to some of the beginning role-play cuteness, and Gaspar's case (which I'll examine next), doesn't seem to have any good grounds for it on first glance. So even though I don't like the flug case the best, I do not see any better leads to try and jump onto at this time.

Maybe you need to look harder. Voting for someone you believe to be a misguided villager surely is not going to help the village. That mainly for your benefit, so that you can always point back if he shows up villager and state "Told you so".

It seems that, apart from your suspicion of me, we have the same suspicions, Serdoa.

. The fact that bigger is following you guys espically Zak on every train that starts and immediately switching votes ? Isn't that exactly the opposite of what you told me bigger I just wrote A few posts up . Your are trying to blend and just follow everyone with your votes while providing 0 reasoning which I think is pretty wired . In the lurker thread you theory crafted and in the scum thingie you were gathering a ton of info about powers and who everyone is while you did nothing in the main thread . I don't think this matches your play style at all if you were town since I'd expect you to post something out of your thoughts and not confirming everyone and following them around .rp wise you got away with really softly with all *HEY* Bigger if there's a town seer please check Q to please me

If there's a huge fallacy in what I am saying please tell me

sure. but please LISTEN!
1. This is the first time I have engaged you at all this game(ok, now I vaguely remember pointing out one of uberfish's rules to you, but I don't see how the two situations are similar).
2. I started wagons on gaspar AND Ichabod already, thats hardly blending in. A few people followed me onto both, so they must have thought there was some validation in my vote.
3. I haven't followed Zak onto anything. In fact, he followed me onto Gaspar, not the other way around. I didn't switch to azza, I just mentioned that I suspected him as well. if he gets more traction than Ichabod, my current #1 suspect, I may switch.
4. Its day 1, give me a break for not having a smoking gun. There was a reason for both votes. For Ichabod, I quoted Lewwyns post, which was enough to convince me to vote for him even if it wasn't enough for Lewwyn. For Gaspar, there was a clear reason, even if I didn't spell it out at the time. I hinted at it later, and I don't really see any benefit to spelling it out more now.

This is actually a town tell for Bigger, I think. That line number 2. is too wolfy to be wolf. I guess Bigger is just trying to prove how he matches the good villager playstyle rather than prove that he's not a wolf. That matters because proving that you are not a wolf in such a situation is actually a scum tell, in my opinion. So, less points for Bigger wolf.

I'll go with Gazglum. I don't understand why he picked specifically Gaius from the flug_auto voters, when other voters had no better reasons. His post indicates that he found Gaius's post more suspicious than others, which I don't get.

Well, I did admit that it was a bit of a shot in the dark. But I did, and do, think that the pile onto Flug was suspicious, and I wanted to put some pressure on those involved. Of those,

Frank Fontaine, legitimate businessman. I'm gonna run this Undercity tits to toes. To do that somebody's gotta die.

Would you kindly vote for someone, flug_auto?

Lewwyn gave the first vote, and clearly did it to push Flug out of hedging. I see nothing suspicious there.

Well that formatting went all screwy. Short of it when I was trying to figure out what the heck flug's character is, it revealed he's part of the conspiracy against the crown.

- Brick's was a roleplay joke vote, there wasn't much traction for Flug at the time.

flug_auto

"No lynch"ers are my personal pet peeve in mafia/ww.

Azza I thought could be wolfy, he was my second most suspicious in this list, but he still was only pushing Flug into equal lead and it's a reasonable statement to make.


Ryan voted Flug for a second, but unvoted him as soon as Flug changed his vote to Azza, which made it look genuinely like a prod to get Flug to get moving rather than a real attempt to lynch him.


Then we get to Gaius.

I don't agree with Meiz's claim that Gaspar and Mattimeo are more likely town than not, based on them not knowing who we are hunting. I simply read it as roleplay, which I don't think necessarily leans one way or the other. Additionally, I'm not quite sure what Meiz was really hoping to get out of novice, but I guess it did start conversation, which is what he wanted.

That being said, I find this:

Azza, I hope this will help to change your mind.

Who said there is any villains? Maybe we all are nice guys and there is no need to lynch nobody.

Its hard being a newbie wolf... I really don't want to lynch you first day, but you're so scummy.

BrickAstrley, Lewwyn, Novice and/or Pindicator are the enemies of the Empress's crown. Trust me, I know this kind, been once myself.

a bit scummy. I don't like the lack of reasoning, nor the "Maybe we all are nice guys..." quote. flug_auto, would you like to explain your suspicions?

Gaius made the fourth vote on Flug, pushing him into equal lead and by 4 votes you're starting to get into territory where someone could really hang. I remember Zak found this post a bit suspicious too, because Gaius was mainly recapping other peope, and i'll admit that that influenced me because Zak has a good reputation. But my suspicious were more raised by his post #140

As for flug, I thought (and still do) that he has been reluctant to post his thoughts. I believed that he needed the extra pressure to finally share some information.

The use of 'information', rather than saying share his suspicions or whatever was a little bit of a warning flag for me, becuase it felt like trying to get Flug to reveal his Secret Power or something, as what 'information' could he really have? But I'll admit this is partly me being pedantic with words, and clearly nobody else was worried by it.

Anyway, Novice was next

Azza, I hope this will help to change your mind.

Who said there is any villains? Maybe we all are nice guys and there is no need to lynch nobody.

Its hard being a newbie wolf... I really don't want to lynch you first day, but you're so scummy.

BrickAstrley, Lewwyn, Novice and/or Pindicator are the enemies of the Empress's crown. Trust me, I know this kind, been once myself.

flug_auto, have you played mafia/werewolf before? Let me tell you how this reads.
1. You start by voting for nobody to be lynched. You realize this will lead to a village loss? The only way we can kill wolves is by lynching them.
2. Revenge vote + following up with saying we're all nice guys, nobody's suspicious. By not sharing suspicions or even random votes you deny the other villagers information. Going back later and analyzing how various players voted and who they suspected is one of the key methods for catching scum.
3. After catching heat for your opening, you come back with 4 random names, and the reasoning "trust me". This reads like
a) Somebody explained the errors of your previous play to you (in the wolf thread)
b) You've already started distancing yourself from your scum buddies since you've caught some heat.

So, care to explain what's going on?

He's trying to engage with Flug, give him some advice for his play. Not Wolfy, because he's encouraging Flug to build a defence.

Finally mattimeo,

This needs elaboration. What reasoning is behind your apparent certainty?
flug__auto 'til an adequate justification is forthcoming.

But this post seemed a lot more casual than Gaius', and by this point (many hours of Flug silence...which is still ongoing...Bueller...Bueller?) I thought more justified.

So I guess it was not so much that Gauis idd anything different to the others, it was the just the way he said it. Like I said, I think that at least someone on this list is scummy, and I think it was reasonable to pick GaiusMarius as the most suspicious of the group. I think he's worth putting pressure on.

I'm for bed, and I'm not sure if I get up before lynch-deadline or not. I'll try to chime in again before then.

Oh, and lastly, before anyone else uses it against me: yes, Lucasarts made the Monkey Island games using the SCUMM engine.

The timing in this post seems to be off. It seems like just a post-facto created reasoning. Gazglum says that he things someone on the flug_auto voters is scummy (he doesn't say why he thingks that, though, at least I didn't see it). He voted for Gaius Marius and got called on that. Now, in this post, after he already voted and got called on it, it seems that he really went and analysed his suspicions. It seems that he only analysed them because of the suspicions that started against him. It's hard to explain, but it's a problem of timing, the timing doesn't seem to fit.

I want others to chime in on this. I think Meiz picked up on this same point in the thread. What do the others think? Am I seeing things? Confirmation bias?

Ichabod is playing too scummily to be scum. He's just having fun IMO.

No, I don't accept that explanation zak. Look at what I quoted. That has nothing to do with having fun. He was absolutely serious about going for pindicator - till he backed off because Lewwyn called him on his bad vote without reasoning. His following of Jkaen might be having fun simply - his votes are not.

Actually I am having a hard time even responding to that because it is so unbelievable that you really try to dismiss the whole case I made on Ichabod by posting "He's just having fun.". Thats mind-boggling.

I was serious going at Pindicator and I still find that Pindicator post suspicious. I backed off not only due to Lewwyn, I seem to remember there were others that said my read was bad. I believed them, much because Pindicator's point on gazglum was good (he made it in that same post). I'll keep reading, though. If Pindicator pointed that out about Gazglum and never reafirmed the thought in following posts (and maybe he kept going after Zakalwe, which was a bad point of his post, I think), this will be a great scum tell against Pindicator and a good innocent tell for Gazglum. I don't think a villager would let go on such a wonderful tell like Pindicator found *the one on gazglum).

There were several other posts about me from Serdoa, but they were more responses to Zak/Novice than attacks on me. I think this is something about Serdoa case against me. It seems he wants to lynch me more to prove that he can do it to Zakalwe and Novice then because he really believes I'm scum. I feel the same that Serdoa is feeling from time to time in this game, but I think he needs to stop and reassess here. All his other suspects are way better than me, mostly because I'm a goodie-no-shoes.

...must never drink.....wine....again

I am liking Serdoa and his effort atm. Seems a bit un-wolfy do commit so hard to color Ichabod black, too early (and out of the blue) to throw fellow wolf under the bus - and if Serdoa is a wolf and knows Ichabod to be innocent he is using up any goodwill thence for this game - better hope he does not end up needing Ichabods vote for anything down the road. So the Ichabod case is worth considering, "too scummy to be a wolf" "just having fun" - if this is so, if his fun is making him appear scummy it's not pro-village. Novice having fun "Havent seen village Zak yet" and Zak "I know what I'm hunting" is fun - once one gets the joke it's harmless.

Then about Gazglum. I thought he answered well why he picked Gaius of the flug-voters, so I'll consider Gaius a bit too. But there is little to go on, and new guy too.

Azza - mabye it's that hated avatar, but I'm suspicious about him too.

Mommy's home, gotta go.

Wolf post, for the same reason why my Meiz post from early in the game is being considered as a wolf post. He considered me as a wolf, Serdoa as a wolf, every scenario, no information given.

[BRickAstley]

Hm... Brick voting for Bigger... Later Brick will follow Bigger on me... I want to see how this came to be...

Well the reason I posted for you wasn't based at all on Bigger, it was based on Serdoa's post #234, which I took to have the gist of "you seem dodgy and not wanting to actually offer up reasoning for your votes" But now, I'm reading what you're trying to say, and I think that it would be worth listening to you. Especially because

Sorry, Serdoa, but all this shows to me is that I wasn't careful with my tongue during this game. This is partly roleplay, partly due to very low time commitment to the game and partly because I don't care that much about what i'm going to say when playing village. I spent the whole AitP game counting my words, I want some rest now.

because that resonates with me. It might be more on the emotional and un-logical side, but I get the same way when I play these games as well. I mean, look at my first day in the Game of Thrones game, I was village but I got over-excited and got everyone's scumdar pinging enough to be vigged night 1. And I think this is starting to feel similar to that for me. So I'll back off you a bit and give you a listen and then we'll go from there.

[BRickAstley]

I think comparing Gazglum's argument http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid336538 and my voting zak while also suspecting flug & ichabod are two different things. Very much an oversimplification. Gazglum is wishy-washy back and forth on flug. I'm saying I suspect all three and wanted to vote zak to get some information out of him first. Gazglum was saying flug was innocent or maybe he was guilty, but people who were pushing him for information were suspicious for doing so.

Wheres your countdown robot lady?

[Ichabod]

I think comparing Gazglum's argument http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid336538 and my voting zak while also suspecting flug & ichabod are two different things. Very much an oversimplification. Gazglum is wishy-washy back and forth on flug. I'm saying I suspect all three and wanted to vote zak to get some information out of him first. Gazglum was saying flug was innocent or maybe he was guilty, but people who were pushing him for information were suspicious for doing so.

You voted Zakalwe while suspecting Flug and Gazglum, Pindicator, not Flug and Ichabod.

Don't you remember your own suspects, robot lady? You didn't even mention me in that post...

Hm...

[Ichabod]

I think comparing Gazglum's argument http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid336538 and my voting zak while also suspecting flug & ichabod are two different things. Very much an oversimplification. Gazglum is wishy-washy back and forth on flug. I'm saying I suspect all three and wanted to vote zak to get some information out of him first. Gazglum was saying flug was innocent or maybe he was guilty, but people who were pushing him for information were suspicious for doing so.

Wheres your countdown robot lady?

Stop copying my words, champion from a rip-off-of-DotA.

[BRickAstley]

I think comparing Gazglum's argument http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid336538 and my voting zak while also suspecting flug & ichabod are two different things. Very much an oversimplification. Gazglum is wishy-washy back and forth on flug. I'm saying I suspect all three and wanted to vote zak to get some information out of him first. Gazglum was saying flug was innocent or maybe he was guilty, but people who were pushing him for information were suspicious for doing so.

Wheres your countdown robot lady?

Stop copying my words, champion from a rip-off-of-DotA.

I really don't even play League very much, I was just on a kick of it when signups for this game was going on. Therefore, your bash at my game means nothing you freaky disembodied skull. Why don't you go find a Hamlet to hold onto you so someone will listen to your philosophizing.

[Rowain]

@novice
Thanks for reading and answering

@novice & Ichabod:

Rowain would get pretty angry at the GM for giving villagers such an easy way to clear themselves. So someone should look at Rowain's vote against Meiz and analyse if it's an "angry-at-GM" revenge vote or just an "I-suspect-you" vote. I'd do it, but I'm a poor judge of character.

As you see novice he doesn't say he has not the time for it. Ichabod simple doesn't want to do it and prefers others to do his dirty job. And it is this BS which drives my blood-pressure crazy. It is the same BS scum has used in the past as said. Zak knows that full well thats why he prefers to not answer to it and hides behind you novice.

About Ichabods great posts. When he was a wolf in WW7 he also made long posts about whom he thinks guilty (example here so as long as he doesn't address the main point (for me) which is the above sentence as long I can't and won't consider him in villager-camp.

But enough of that. I was willing to give him anotherday (thats why I switched). I recommended to Serdoa to let the Ichabod-case rest for day2 and see what happens and I have every intention to follow my own advice. So I won't vote Ichabod on day2. Day3 and following we will see. Depends what he can deliver.

qzak

Now what do you think of my case against Azza, Rowain? Why are you so DISMISSIVE? You scummy scum, you!!1!

A bit hard to take your case on Azza seriously when you happily voted with him to lynch flug.

[Ichabod]

@novice
Thanks for reading and answering

@novice & Ichabod:

Rowain would get pretty angry at the GM for giving villagers such an easy way to clear themselves. So someone should look at Rowain's vote against Meiz and analyse if it's an "angry-at-GM" revenge vote or just an "I-suspect-you" vote. I'd do it, but I'm a poor judge of character.

As you see novice he doesn't say he has not the time for it. Ichabod simple doesn't want to do it and prefers others to do his dirty job. And it is this BS which drives my blood-pressure crazy. It is the same BS scum has used in the past as said. Zak knows that full well thats why he prefers to not answer to it and hides behind you novice.

About Ichabods great posts. When he was a wolf in WW7 he also made long posts about whom he thinks guilty (example here so as long as he doesn't address the main point (for me) which is the above sentence as long I can't and won't consider him in villager-camp.

But enough of that. I was willing to give him anotherday (thats why I switched). I recommended to Serdoa to let the Ichabod-case rest for day2 and see what happens and I have every intention to follow my own advice. So I won't vote Ichabod on day2. Day3 and following we will see. Depends what he can deliver.

qzak

Now what do you think of my case against Azza, Rowain? Why are you so DISMISSIVE? You scummy scum, you!!1!

A bit hard to take your case on Azza seriously when you happily voted with him to lynch flug.

So, that's it then?! It's either lynch one of my fellow scum on day 2 or be lynched on day 3? And how can you assure me that you won't lynch me after I lynch my pal? I'll need solid proof on that...

...

Oops...

[novice]

@novice & Ichabod:

Rowain would get pretty angry at the GM for giving villagers such an easy way to clear themselves. So someone should look at Rowain's vote against Meiz and analyse if it's an "angry-at-GM" revenge vote or just an "I-suspect-you" vote. I'd do it, but I'm a poor judge of character.

As you see novice he doesn't say he has not the time for it.

Oops, my bad.

[Ichabod]

@novice & Ichabod:

Rowain would get pretty angry at the GM for giving villagers such an easy way to clear themselves. So someone should look at Rowain's vote against Meiz and analyse if it's an "angry-at-GM" revenge vote or just an "I-suspect-you" vote. I'd do it, but I'm a poor judge of character.

As you see novice he doesn't say he has not the time for it.

Oops, my bad.

Rowain also took my joke off that post. I said I was a poor judge of character because I judge all characters poor.

Why did you take my joke off, Rowain? Trying to make a better case by hiding relevant information?