WW20: Legend of the Undercity

[novice]

You are mistaken or you lie, mister. I crazyeyed you AND answered your question. In fact, I had answered your question before and the post where you voted for me was not a question. And now you want yet another answer to the same question.

Well your first answer didn't really answer what your suspicion was about, you just stated that it "wasn't there" when you reread.

I reread the posts and it just wasn't there. I was probably too eager. I'll wait and see what he does. For now, there are better targets.

Your second answer at least tries to address this.

I concluded in my head that, if gazglum voted for me, he was scum. Then he made some preparation posts and voted for me on deadline. It seemed pretty damning at the time, because "I was right". When I reread things, it didn't seem so good anymore.

OK. Enough of that. Rereading the thread I came across this post by Mattimeo. Did someone point this post out before? Mattimeo starts his post by finding Molach's handling of the QT void of any negative intent. Then he says there's just one thing that's suspicious about Molach, related to mentioning timestamps. Yet somehow he ends up voting for Molach on the basis that one of the four quasineighbours must be scum. Really?

This was at the start of day 2, with Tasunke starting to pick up heat.

Mattimeo

I don't believe Molach's handing of the QT with flug reveals any negative intent. Possibly misguided, in hindsight, but the intent seems to have been getting a struggling player, who was obviously around at the time, to actually post and contribute to the game. And to be entirely honest, I'd wash my hands of (and probably go a step further and vote for) someone who, despite proving they were around, made no real attempt to interact with the thread in the 20 hours leading up to their lynch.
The one thing I do find slightly suspicious is this specific denial.

2. I won't have time to edit the thread and adjust the times or something. WYSIWIG. (I typed all date/time-info in so I wouldn't quote the whole thread as it contains Uberfish messages). All times are ET (US)

and again earlier on this page

And I could have edited it a bit to make me look better, no real need to rush it out at the start of the night because I could have gone to bed, right?)

Why is there a need to belabour the point that it's unedited? Surely that's the base assumption, and not something you need to specifically allay fears of...

Serdoa seems to be being standard Serdoa, picking something to run to the ground and subsequently doing so. Though getting started on day 1 rather than waiting for low-hanging fruit to jump on gives him a slight town lean for me.

Gaspar's limited interactions don't shed much light on anything. The fact he was so open about being prepared to save Ichabod against flug if it came down to it pushes Ichabod town in my eyes.
Tempted to vote Ichabod anyway for the length of #502 and #511 though

--

On the other hand, we have two known or suspected 'pairings' in the game - flug and Molach (with a QT), Jkaen and Ichabod (no info what abilities). Yes, there are reasons why they could be associated given backstory. Yes, alignment was randomly determined. But alignment was determined before roles, and I find it hard to believe that everyone in such links is town.
Therefore, Molach.

Too much effort right now to analyse anyone else intently. Niggling suspicions here and there for reasons I'm not entirely sure of myself (BRick, Bigger, Gazglum) that I'll see if I can substantiate later.

--

Hey Lewwyn and Mattimeo, you're both under 10 posts total so far, and this game is pretty active. What are you thinking?

I was thinking several things:
a) oh hey, Day 1. Usual shitfest. Let's wait 'til there's, you know, *any* actual information before jumping on stuff I'm pretty terrible at reading in the first place.
b) damn, this summer subject I'm doing is requiring rather more effort than I was expecting.
c) k, have time for forums. What to do? DnD character setup, or werewolf? DnD character setup looks to have better returns in both short and long term. Maybe when there's enough data in werewolf for me to analyse the hell out of the meta, or go stupid WIFOM.

d) anyways, doesn't matter if everyone dies, I can go back to the start of the month and begin again. With knowledge that might actually be useful immediately for once

Crossposting a bunch, will catch up later.

[Jkaen]

I find it funny that you completely dismiss the case on Meiz, basically stating we should not follow such ideas on D2, but then try to make a case (for meta-arguments I might add) on pindicator as SK. Which btw could be as easily be made on several other player-characters. The Nameless One could fit (he had some rather ugly reincarnations), Creeper would certainly fit as well.

And the way you do it is just extremely scummy. I don't like that post at all. And as no one will vote Meiz it seems (I still believe he is scum):

Me as the SK only makes sense if you dont believe my reveal, are you saying you doubt I was telling the truth?

@Jkaen are you anywhere? I find your silence after you regained your memory a bit disturbing

Normally nip in and out of the thread during work, but was stuck in a 7 hour meeting this morning so just catching up now (memory came back at midnight for me)

[Ichabod]

@Lewwyn,Meiz: I see your case vs novice and yes his play is different than WW16 but still I have to agree with Serdoa that his play doesn't make much sense as wolf. (could still be possessed)

Why not? I gained massive villager points on my wolf game, where I voted Matt early, at a time when it makes no sense for wolf to do. Novice would be aware how well it worked, he had me listed as villager too.

Do you think you gained massive villager points by vigging your packmate today?

[Meiz]

Ye trying to trick me skull!

[Jkaen]

Ok, memory came back and I am a bit diisapointed tbh. I am now a vanilla villager, but the way uber's write up reads then there was never a chance no matter my actions for me to switch to anything else. Hence it seems that along with pindicator I have been given a penalty rather than a power this game.

Now for example the fact that I was first to try and push Tansuke cant be given as a tell for my alignment at all.

Other minor points is I don't get the Molach case, it seems to be mainly the fact he didnt post the QT earlier, which I dont think is any sort of tell.

Also feel Rowain has been putting in his groundwork for a case against me very early.

vote options I think are Mattimeo for the molach case, Novice for reasons everybody has covered or bigger for even suggesting policy lynching me made sense. Right now I will go Mattimeo

[Bigger]

Rowain - I'm definitely leaning on Lewwyn, and some others here. Thats not going to change until the weekend, tbh, to much to do learning a new game. I check in as I'm able but I certainly don't have time to research old posts or do very careful reading.

Doesnt mean my reads aren't valid, I'm actually a pretty good scum hunter, even ar less than 100%

I'm not worried about being lynched today. I have an ace in the hole. I'll be on at my lunch break (~4 hours) and I'll reveal it if I'm still at risk of being lynched. I'd rather not, of course, but I won't be able to be on near deadline so prob have to.

[Rowain]

@Lewwyn,Meiz: I see your case vs novice and yes his play is different than WW16 but still I have to agree with Serdoa that his play doesn't make much sense as wolf. (could still be possessed)

Why not? I gained massive villager points on my wolf game, where I voted Matt early, at a time when it makes no sense for wolf to do. Novice would be aware how well it worked, he had me listed as villager too.

Yes I could see novice bussing Tasunke hard but the jumping off is the thing that makes me doubt his wolfishness. Especially with practically no reasons given.

Also feel Rowain has been putting in his groundwork for a case against me very early.

Depends what you mean.
The meta-speculation is a meta-speculation and no I would not vote for you out of meta alone (contrary to mattimeo) only when you deserve it with your play. We can discuss the possibility (and the merits or lack thereoff) of a GM adjusting the side a player joins on the fly later in the lurker-thread.

OTOH The fact that you were not telling the truth about your relationship with Ichabod remains true. And your current lynch-cases are rather weak but understandable since you had a lot of catch-up to do. So I hope you now have some more time to go through and find some better reasons to put your vote (could still be the same target).

[Molach]

Q.
* Gonna change my title to 'solace' for the day.
* My defense is not that I played SCUMMILY but am innocent anyway. It is that I played BADLY and am innocent.

Back in 4.

[GaiusMarius]

@ Gaius Marius. Gaius I just…don’t trust. And Gaius, if you are a villager I’m sorry because this must seem like a pretty unfair and personal crusade. But Qqqqq seems to agree. You were comfortable on the Flug train all Day 1, not drawing attention to yourself, and today there hasn’t been much of anything. You also are a lot less emotional than me, like this post late Day 1:

Even now that I've read Ichabod's argument, I'm still not convinced that gazglum is scum. I think he defended well, saying he was looking for different leads based on the flug voters, even if he did find flug himself suspicious. I agree that the vote switch at the end of D1 was a bit strange, but I don't think that's enough to convict him. – no mention of me attacking him!

It might just be different minds, but I can’t quite believe your Gentleman Gaius persona. I attacked you hard Day 1, and you respond with a “yes, I think Gazglum made some fair points”. No mention that I was gunning for you, no quip or barb or insult or apology or any emotional engagement at all. In your shoes as a villager, I would at least have mentioned my attack. In you shoes as a wolf, I might not have, because I didn’t want to remind anyone about it.

And if it turns out I’m attacking a villager for being more high-minded than me, again, I apologise.

Your major interaction Day 2 was that squabble with Qqqqq, which I’d probably rate a draw. You voted for Bigger based on him being too close to Brick, but that wasn’t your call was it? You were quoting Brick himself saying that.

Again, it’s not so much what you’ve done, it’s just the vibe, to quote a great Australian movie. More specificially, it’s the pattern of your posting. I feel like both your days have gone like this,
- Friendly talky Gaius, a helpful member of the village
- Gaius attacked! Gaius defends himself, and does a perfectly reasonable job
- But then Gaius vanishes for 24 hours, perhaps because of real life or perhaps not. But both times the anti-Gaius sentiment is left with no fuel and so sputters out.

I don’t want you to fade away again, I want to hear more from you. And so I’m swinging back to Gaius for now.

Well, I could be more emotional; I could be like "Gazglum attacked me, therefore he has no clue what he's talking about." I just don't think that helps anyone though. It doesn't help me defend myself, nor does it help the town find the scum - the goal of this game. If you bring up fair points, and I could reasonably see myself doing the same, then I'll acknowledge that.

I have disappeared at times, I realize for that. But WW has been more of a time commitment than I realized, and I've simply had other stuff that I needed to do.

As for suspects:
I don't want to pressure him too much, because I believe him when he says he's going through a lot of stuff right now, but I guess it's still possible for Ryan to be a wolf.

Also, Ichabod. You want to lynch me to get a good read on gazglum? I'm sure there are better reasons for voting someone than that.

[Serdoa]

@Jkaen: I take your reveal into account and accept it. But I don't dismiss the possibility of it being a lie. Is that likely? No, not really, there is no sensible reason for it. For plays as those though I expect rational reasons for a wolf, and I don't see any. Thats basically the differentiation I make. I can see reasons why Meiz would as scum shoot Tasunke. And there are some emotions involved in the reasons I see there. But your play? No, you sound like villager Jkaen, grumpy, but logical.

@Meiz: What Rowain said. I just don't see novice playing like that as wolf. I might come around to a different point of view later on, depending what he does, but for now (as much as I would like to lynch him) it makes for me no sense to do it. Especially as he had enough suspicions on him by now that I don't fear any longer that he could talk his way out of it later on, when the stronger villagers are killed off.

Rowain - I'm definitely leaning on Lewwyn, and some others here. Thats not going to change until the weekend, tbh, to much to do learning a new game. I check in as I'm able but I certainly don't have time to research old posts or do very careful reading.

Doesnt mean my reads aren't valid, I'm actually a pretty good scum hunter, even ar less than 100%

I'm not worried about being lynched today. I have an ace in the hole. I'll be on at my lunch break (~4 hours) and I'll reveal it if I'm still at risk of being lynched. I'd rather not, of course, but I won't be able to be on near deadline so prob have to.

Bigger

You have already revealed everything necessary to get you nightkilled anyhow if you are a villager. So why not reveal fully? All the time I only saw lieing villagers or wolfs do a reveal like that. But that is certainly not your style Bigger, as you know that it makes no sense. Either reveal full or don't reveal. But hinting at an ability that also is confirming you as a villager but not revealing? No.

Also, you are just to full of yourself in that post. That sounds for me much like a wolf that is trying to appear as certain as possible to make the others reconsider and not like a villager. Also stating that you don't have time to read carefully but at the same time state that you are even in that case a good scum hunter just makes no sense at all.