[SPOILERS] Churchill of Portugal: Gallipoli Part II

[spacetyrantxenu]

Oh, I have a token unit in there for now and an archer partially completed on case it needs whipping. But I'm several turns behind in my reporting now, there are other things to consider now. Hopefully I can get to writing them soon. But it is Valentines Day, I suppose civ shouldn't be to priority tonight.

[regoarrarr]

I've already prechopped that tile down to being a 1 turn chop, but I'd like to leave that tile unchopped until I'm almost finished putting a mine on it, too, as it is a useful enough tile at 0/3/0 that I'd like to keep using it until the mine is ready. My understanding is that I can start mining the tile with the forest still on it, put three tiles into the mine, cancel, 1t chop to clear the forest, and then still be 1t from finishing the mine. Is that accurate? If so it seems better to keep getting the extra hammer from that tile as long as I'm going to be working it. If I have that wrong (or if someone wants to sandbox it) let me know.

Kind of a late reply, but my understanding is that you are correct. You can even just keep mining it the whole time and it will finish in the same amount of turns

(and I won't even make you name a unit after me)

[spacetyrantxenu]

It's Friday night, it must be time for some late reports. Wait, no one is reading -- you're all out doing things? (What happened to my social life???)

As best I can remember what was happening in game three days ago when I last reported, Nakor/Jester were being handily disemboweled by The Zulu, a.k.a., Scooter/Pindicator and their legion of super lurkers. They have Noble Helium filming midnight newscasts and I'm sure it's quite a show they're broadcasting, as Indian cities fall one after another in rapid succession. It's eerily reminiscent of what happened to Yuris in PB5 once Regoarrarr and Pindicator devoted themselves to the attack. The reader may recall the situation in PB5 for that Pingo team; bordered on one side by a powerful empire of Krillian proportions, they had to find a way to level the playing field against their primary adversary (Krill) by gobbling up a neighbor, in hopes of evening up the land count so they could make a recovery later in the game. In that campaign they ran over an adversary caught flat-footed with stunning speed, and the collapse was spectacular. Almost as fast as their two move knights could advance (and maybe pausing long enough for the horses to take a sip of river water), they captured city after city until they consumed the continent. Yuris was saved very briefly by the invaders' need to cross another body of water to finish the conquest. It didn't take long.

Similar need has driven team Zulu in this game, as Scooticator have been all but eliminated from their home continent. With a (temporary?) peace gained from the Khmer, they evidently came up with a plan to seek land and cities where they could, and the easy pickings looked to be on the Indian subcontinent. I don't know how many galleys they prepared, but it seems like they launched their entire remaining army over the waves and onto Indian beaches, catching the natives completely unprepared. From the start of the invasion (T117?) to the current turn (now T123 as I write this), the Zulu have taken four cities from the Indians, including their captial Flight of Fancy, home of the Great Lighthouse. In that time Nakor/Jester have whipped over and over trying belatedly to field an army that can stand up to the Zulu menace. So far it has been futile, as near as I can tell, because I don't see an end to the invasion or a recovery coming. As of T123, Nakor/Jester have three cities left, and I have it on good information that the latest capital may not long be in their possession, as a Zulu force approaches from the west....

[spacetyrantxenu]

T120 - As I opened the game on T120 I had a trade offer from India to consider.



OK, 10 gold isn't much to ask, except I need every bit of it to finish Currency this turn. Declined! Maybe some other time...but I don't think incurring debt from a dying nation is a great idea. I wonder if that 10 gold would have meant a unit upgrade that could have turned the tide of the invasion....? Nah, probably not. But I'd like to know what they wanted the money for later on, I hope I wasn't cursed for being stingy.

I looked around a bit, but there was no way I could cover the gap in beakers to squeeze out enough at 20%. How comes my conscience is so clean?

Around the mini-empire my jungle workers kept hacking away between Black and Old, cultural infrastructure continues rushing into New Fish, and various military builds are underway because Churchill is one paranoid leader. Also, as highlighted, the missionary will finish in Blue Fish with no overflow, in a sign of rare micro efficiency by the Portuguese turn player. Four cities were set to grow and Currency was due at the end of the turn, surely a banner year for the empire.



Among my neighbors I'm still doing okay in food production, squeezing the most I can out of these tiles. Perhaps it would be a good idea to leverage the population to produce commerce soon? (Cottaging over the jungle belt farms will begin soon, just not yet).



Of course, being first among my neighbors is only good enough for 4th overall. Best of the rest, am I?

[spacetyrantxenu]

T121 - Our little tug on its epic overseas voyage (well, not quite overseas, just a long, long way off on the same landmass) has run into a bit of trouble:



It appears he won't be coming home any time soon. Obviously Commodore built that dumpy little city for ICTRs, and has a boat nearby to squash my work boat if I dare to try crossing the gap. I don't want a war declaration though, because hopefully I'll tech Alphabet soon and I may want to open trade routes with Commodore and his zillion cities. That will require further evaluation later. His economy is probably not in a great place now (excluding whatever pillage gold he found along the way), I don't want to help prime it by opening trade if I don't have to, but I do have my own crummy economy to think about, and there won't be a bailout of Portugal in this game to push me along.




In the north I moved up an axe to have a look at Serdoa's city, Mayapan. He has enough of a garrison on hand for now to deter any hostile action. Meanwhile the three workers I have toiling at New Fish are finishing up the last cultural building I'll pack in for the moment (I've added religion, a library, and a barracks, so everything I can do except a monument for now). Lighthouse is on deck here, I plan to have it in place by the time I take cultural control of the two lake tiles to the north of the city. That was part of the reason for positioning my axe to see into Serdoa's city. I wanted to see what cultural buildings he has in the city so I could guess at when I'd need the lighthouse. I guess I could have just watched the culture percentages in our overlapping tiles but I didn't think of that at the time. Anyway, it doesn't look like he's getting any additional culture outside of the +1pt from his religion. Advantage Xenu.

As a side note, it seems a shame to orphan the elephant and those three grassland tiles east of my city. I could cram in another city on that grass jungle tile, but that would be a bit provocative toward Brick, and in RB Mod it probably isn't worth that amount of trouble for war elephants. In vanilla, yeah, gimme that ivory for uberphants, as far as that goes I would probably build on the ivory and just throw in some cheap PRO walls and archers, and call it a day. But I've already taken a swipe at Brick, best to leave that alone unless I really want a hot war to deal with. Of course, if I'm not going to settle an obviously best left neutral site, Brick and Serdoa would do well to abstain as well....




The missionary from Blue moved to Black and will do his dirty work next turn. Brick's galley had me a bit worried that he would (in a fit of insanity) try to settle my one decent remaining city site. It turned out that he didn't, but you never know what's on those galleys. Elsewhere, HR requires a lot of units, so archers continue to build, as well as chariots. Horses, ride 'em while you got 'em.

In the event log you can see the Zulu cutting the heart out of India, capturing their capital and the Great Lighthouse. In less interesting news Commodore burned down the barbarian city I explored earlier with my work boat. Speaking of those guys, just going to swing back to the west with them, if I ever get open borders with Commodore I'll keep going west and hope to meet Lewwyn and his tribe of poets someday.



The approval rate and life expectancy show that I am pretty well full grown. I need to get a settler moving soon. And I need more land!

[spacetyrantxenu]

T122 - In which a half-baked plan is revealed:




But first, boring empire management. I need a galley out of Two Fish soon to retrieve the workers at New Fish, as they run out of useful things to do. But what will I need to do with these guys? I guess they can be the farm-to-cottage crew. The other worker gang completed their second jungle belt cottage, picked up by Old Fish, and then stacked up to get a mine tile ready for the city's upcoming growth. With Buddhism in place in Black Fish, I'll have a worker finish chopping in the library soon, with the completion of the PH mine. New Fish got a chop into its lighthouse, which will be whipped in next turn for immediate regrowth to size 4. At that point the city will be working pigs, grassland farm, and two lighthoused lake tiles, for a very healthy food surplus. I'll see quick growth here, but probably onto a pair of scientist specialists until I get the sugar improved. It will likely be cottaged until I can get Calendar researched, whenever that is.




More detail around New Fish shows that as of this turn I've caught up to Serdoa's culture production on the overlapping tiles. Next turn I'll own the lake tiles, in time to use them. I wandered forward a bit more with my axe to get a look from the hill tile, and it put me adjacent to two of Brick's workers. Mmmm hmmmmm. I guess we'll find out pretty quickly whether or not he has any chariots down here, huh? (Spoiler, one would cover the workers the next turn). Oh well, turn around, head back to town.

In international news....




That sums it up. Zulu captured IW first, knocking out the only Indian source of metal, which really put a hurting into their defense plans for countering impis + whatever else the Zulu brought. Lightning campaign + running a light military = Indian disaster. I don't know what India had on defense, but it doesn't seem like much. My military power is #2 in the world and I don't have a ton of nice military tech, so my position on this chart is not a bad measure of solid defense (on paper -- putting my troops into action has so far left much to be desired):



India has certainly made only casual efforts to build up power in this game -- they were behind even before I went nuts and attacked Brick earlier. And I'm wondering now how much of their rating is inflated by tech, since they've been teching very well (especially compared to me). If they did have a decent military garrison it obviously wasn't positioned well against an impi invasion, however that would have to work. I assume inside the city behind walls wouldn't be a bad place to be. Oh, and bring axes to that particular fight. What happens when things go wrong?



Nosedive. These guys need a net. You know what they don't need?




OK, so I've been planning an invasion. Here we have 3 galleys full of units (plus one axe that there wasn't room for) sailing for the newest Indian capital. Only to find in a bit of rotten luck that they've tried to put together a navy down there, I guess he's sailing west to stop more Zulu from coming ashore? So great, I'll lose some boats. But as long as they can't see my two ships behind the axe and block the path I'll be OK to sail in, drop off my troops, maybe lose a boat or two, but I can take a shot at the city.

I can see the walls around the city but I figured if I drop off seven units that may be enough to crack the city. I mean, why not, given the way they've been collapsing everywhere else? Just don't block the pass, OK?



Anyone taking odds on what happens next? Yeah, don't bother, it never works out for me.

[spacetyrantxenu]

T123 - A new turn, a new trade offer!



In what must be a single player style tactic, Jester has offered me his world map for apparently free. Now, my understanding is that him gifting it to me does not prevent me from declaring war, as I believe that is his intent. If I had asked the map from him with nothing on my side of the ledger, that would look like a demand and would lock us into a 10 turn treaty, I think. But him just out of the blue offering it wouldn't force anything from my side. However, I'm 99% sure about this, not 100%, so I rejected the trade. I don't have a legion of fast responding lurkers (optimistically because I don't post the reports in time to get timely feedback, one of the downsides of playing toward the end of every turn right before I go into work). Anyway, so I may have unnecessarily denied myself a free map. Whatever, when Scooter is done conquering India I'll get the map from him.

Here's the tactical picture:




Remember the one thing that would screw me over was India blocking the pass, and that's just what they did. I don't think they could see my two galleys there, so it wasn't a proactive blocking move, I think they either got lucky or have some great intuition. Anyway, that cocked it up for me quite a bit. One trireme in a position where I can't maneuver around it, and in a situation where time is probably not on my side. I can't sail west with the two triremes on the highlighted tile and hope Nakor doesn't attack, because I'd either lose three units with a loss or would have to unload everything onto the island, try to survive the trireme attacks, and then reload the units onto my tattered fleet for the invasion. That sounds like a great way to lose a lot of land units into the ocean. Unfortunately, I didn't move Ying forward to have a look at the city or I could have spared myself some trouble....

I decided I couldn't get around the trireme, I'd have to go through it. I ran some sims and it looked like a 50/50 proposition, more or less, to sacrifice one galley, damaging the trireme enough so that the second galley could finish it off. I wasn't hoping to have to engage a coin flip battle before I even got to the city. Well, close odds in a battle, with a LOT riding on the outcome of the first combat roll. Does this sound familiar yet??? Here we go...



Well for fuck's sake, we're PORTUGAL, why can't we field a decent navy? I mean, I guess thanks for getting in that one hit before you scuttled the boat guys. But a second attack is out of the question, I'll get horrible odds on the second galley against a mostly intact trireme. And still no way to bring these units to the fight, I have nothing left to do but retreat with the second galley. Scorecard: in two important naval battles in this game so far, I've lost them both. I assure you, Henry the Navigator is an invention of fiction, not a real person from Portuguese history.

Now, what really kills me is that if I had only moved forward with the third galley first (from the east), I could have saved myself the trouble of suiciding a boat:




That city is already doomed, more than likely. If I had moved this boat first my moves would have been simpler and MUCH better for me. I would not have declared war, would have sailed both western galleys (loaded with units) through the trireme, and would have begun sailing east, ostensibly toward my own territory, but ultimately over to India's island city FG. The trireme could not have followed me into my territory without a war declaration, and I could have unloaded the units onto land if I was worried that they might just attack a three ship stack of galleys with their trireme. At that point although it may have looked like an invasion fleet, they couldn't be 100% sure (well, maybe they could... ), they may not have attacked, you never know. Anyway, again I'm disappointed by the outcome of a coin flip battle, especially after finding out it was likely futile anyway. I think the Zulu are going to take that city and be a closer neighbor than I'd like. They're playing aggressively (may as well, when you're in last place) and will be a pain in the ass later if they manage to rebuild their empire in Indian lands.

Back to the situation at hand, I withdrew my western galley north so it can't be hit by the trireme and then pulled my eastern galley back out of range as well. If they want to chase me back to port they can feel free, but then they won't have a guard against further Zulu vessels. I doubt I'll be chased that far but if I am, no biggie. I'm sure having that trireme out of position would carry a real cost, so it's unlikely.

iRandomDogpile!



Demos:



Someone's GNP has taken a significant jump lately. I'll bet they aren't at war.

Around the empire not much changed, other than adding a galley build at One Fish (using some overflow) and whipping in the lighthouse at New Fish (not pictured). I shuffled the tiles at Blue Fish so that I wouldn't waste a lot of hammers on the archer whip. If I had planned ahead that would have been an axe and I wouldn't have had to minimize my overflow to avoid waste. As it is I'm sacrificing one hammer but that's a reminder to be more careful in the future.

I guess this would be a good point to decide how much effort I want to commit to fighting India. I could whip these galleys, whip several axes, and go after them, but I think I'm too late to the game now. I may be able to take their island holding, depending on how many triremes they build, but I could be beat to that by the Zulu as well, as fast as India is collapsing. It's disappointing, really. As soon as I saw the Zulu war declaration and capture of the Indian iron city I mobilized the forces that ended up sailing down the coast, seven units on three boats isn't an insignificant effort, and I did it in only a few turns without whipping myself too hard to do it. The main problem was that two of the boats were on the northern coast and slow to arrive. I shipped them half empty, some of the units boarded during the southern transit. It's just a result of where my boats were positioned that I was slow getting them down there, and then India's luck or intuition in blocking the straits that has stymied the first effort down there. I'm not sure it's worth sending over one galley to take the island city, and by the time I can shift my attackers that way it's probably either going to be already taken by the Zulu or heavily defended, now that I've tipped my hand (and India continues to whip for its life). I wonder if I'm going to win a relevant coin flip battle in this game? Maybe I'd be better off not trying to fight anyone until I have overwhelming force and odds. But whatever happened to fortune favors the bold??? Wait...that's what the Zulu are doing, maybe I'm not doing it right.

[novice]

Wouldn't an unharmed India have been a more annoying neighbour than a Zulu empire rebuilding from an invasion?

Accepting the world map would not have precluded you from declaring war. That's an AI thing.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

I have to say, that's disappointing, but even more so given that you should have moved your eastern boat first to get a better view of the situation.

2 Axes, Chariot, Impi vs. what? You said 6 units on the 3 galleys, plus the axe, but I can't see what other than the axe that is disembarked. In any event, I'm guessing that you had at least 2 axes and 2 spears? That would have been sufficient to prevent getting mauled by scooticator's stack if you landed on the adjacent forest for +50% defense, so probably that was your best move. Then the trireme would be forced to attack 3 galleys, you'd get the 10% bonus as defender, and your two surviving galleys could mop up his trireme.

I'm praying that you unloaded your galley before taking a 4.4% fight?

[spacetyrantxenu]

Wouldn't an unharmed India have been a more annoying neighbour than a Zulu empire rebuilding from an invasion?

Accepting the world map would not have precluded you from declaring war. That's an AI thing.

Good to know about the map, that was the 1% doubt that kept me from pulling the trigger on the freebie deal. If someone else offers me a free map I'll take it next time.

As for who I'd prefer to have as a neighbor, can I ask instead for the Zulu piloted by Nakor rather than the Zulu run by the league of veteran dedlurkers? Nakor is a good player, I'm sure he's better than I am because it doesn't take a lot to meet that bar. But he's not an aggressive player. He is usually content to build for as long as people let him (in the games I've seen, anyway, I haven't read every game on RB). That's a good neighbor to have, as long as they don't get too far ahead in tech to attack later. Honestly that's probably where he was headed, though, with my economic struggles, so it may be that the Zulu have done me a favor. But if they incorporate their holdings down there in the New Zulu empire they may be able to cause me problems later on. I know the two turn players are much better civ players than I am, never mind the impressive dedlurker roster giving them advice. I have a severe knowledge and skill handicap to overcome against those guys if I'm going to try anything in the future (or now). I'll have to have a lot of extra hammers to waste to counter that, because I'm not exactly playing the best game here. One thing I don't have a lot of is extra production, given the type of land I have and the RB mod whip nerf. Sure, if I could ever get MC researched I could scatter workshops around my territory, but then I'm at a disadvantage because of a lack of tiles to work. I'm not sure how to resolve that short of conquering someone with more land, and the Zulu have apparently taken the low hanging fruit already.

I'd ask for advice but I think everyone reading this thread is globally lurking. So I'll keep muddling on as I've been doing. I'm still not sure what to do with the invasion plan, though. Double down or cut bait? If I commit to the attack I'll pick up a few scraps from Nakor and probably set myself as a long term adversary/target of the Zulu (which is probably inevitable now in any case as they're backed into a corner with only two neighbors, me and Commodore, and they probably don't want any part of another fight with him). If I call off the attack I can go home with only a sunk galley in the books, with the only other losses being economic for supporting the units out of borders for a few turns. Not catastrophic, but failing the opportunity to gain land sucks. In that case I'll probably keep slumping along for a while until I /roll and decide to invade someone else, or am myself invaded by a more powerful neighbor.

Anyway, back to the original question, in no way would an unharmed India be more annoying, Nakor seemed happy to leave me alone. In the long run it could have been fatal if he had teched past me significantly and ever decided to go to war, so in that sense I'm happy to have a less advanced neighbor now. But I don't believe for a minute that the Zulu won't come after me later, if they successfully consume India and consolidate the new empire. Better players usually prevail, water finds a crack, etc. So eventually I'm going to have to deal with them, like it or not, because if I don't they're going to try to deal with me. I'm not sure if the better time would be now while they're militarily strong but economically very fragile, or later when their army is obsolete and before they've successfully rebuilt their economy. The second option assumes that my army isn't also obsolete, something yet to be determined.

Thanks for the question, it sparked a bit of (inconclusive) thought.