Diplomacy Master Thread- Helping Your Opponents Beat Themselves

[Ceiliazul]

Tech stealing costs only, iirc, 40% of the cost of self learning. If we agree tech steals are ok, we basically double their research rate.* We shouldn't just give that benefit to another team freely.

*yes, they have to build and pay for spies. Still a huge gift we'd be giving them.

[novice]

Tech stealing costs only, iirc, 40% of the cost of self learning. If we agree tech steals are ok, we basically double their research rate.* We shouldn't just give that benefit to another team freely.

*yes, they have to build and pay for spies. Still a huge gift we'd be giving them.

It's not a gift, they already have the option of stealing our techs. If we don't give it freely they'll just take it freely. What does it matter anyway who they steal techs from? Better that they use the EPs that they have on us than the EPs that they have on CivFr.

[Nicolae Carpathia]

Why would we "welcome" the arrival of missionaries that grant another team gold income, let them spy on us and steal our techs, and can even cause us to lose the game outright if they can line up enough AP cheese votes? I don't see the logic in that.

As I said in the Turn Discussion thread, we politely but firmly tell them not to spread religion in our territory, and if they refuse or don't answer, we close borders next turn.

We might keep a friend this way. The spying and tech steals will happen either way. And part of the deal would be no AP cheese, like I clearly said. This approach also insures us against the consequences of a random buddhism spread. Finally, we get the option of building AP boosted monasteries and temples in our border cities.

Pretty much agree with Novice. And yeah, we need Alphabet the moment CPers tech Alphabet, and start putting some defensive spies in our border cities. I want to focus on taking all of the German's land.

We're at risk of CPers deciding that the NAP is tied to Open Borders.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

Apologies for the many multi-quotes.

Why would we "welcome" the arrival of missionaries that grant another team gold income, let them spy on us and steal our techs, and can even cause us to lose the game outright if they can line up enough AP cheese votes? I don't see the logic in that.

As I said in the Turn Discussion thread, we politely but firmly tell them not to spread religion in our territory, and if they refuse or don't answer, we close borders next turn.

We might keep a friend this way. The spying and tech steals will happen either way. And part of the deal would be no AP cheese, like I clearly said. This approach also insures us against the consequences of a random buddhism spread. Finally, we get the option of building AP boosted monasteries and temples in our border cities.

I'm not convinced by the benefit to us to build AP boosted monasteries/temples. If CP is playing to win, they have to grasp at their best straw. Right now, they aren't out-expanding us, they aren't out-microing us, they aren't out teching us. The only competitive advantage that I can see within game mechanics is the AP. Diplomatically, we have more OB than they have, so even on the diplo front, they do not have a competitive advantage. I do not casually dismiss their motive here, as it may well be their best chance to win, particularly with geography conspiring against them with CivFr to their west. There are no easy outs for expansion for this team.

Also, what avenue of retribution would we have toward the team who promised not to use AP-cheese to get a victory, after that team uses AP-cheese to win? The game would be over at that point, right? I don't imagine any post-game negotiation about a stolen victory would go any better than the pre-game shenanigans went with CFC. A promise in this case is empty words. They would have exactly one chance to snipe a victory. If they lose, we declare jihad. If they win, we're hosed.

Tech stealing costs only, iirc, 40% of the cost of self learning. If we agree tech steals are ok, we basically double their research rate.* We shouldn't just give that benefit to another team freely.

*yes, they have to build and pay for spies. Still a huge gift we'd be giving them.

It's not a gift, they already have the option of stealing our techs. If we don't give it freely they'll just take it freely. What does it matter anyway who they steal techs from? Better that they use the EPs that they have on us than the EPs that they have on CivFr.

Even better still that they not receive the massive discount on teching. Let's not do anything that makes it any easier for them to get value out of espionage steals. We stash spies everywhere we need to, once they get Alphabet.

[SevenSpirits]

I think we should take a hard line on not allowing the missionary to spread religion into our city.

Btw we need to resolve it immediately, as they can spread religion in just a single missionary move. Closing borders next turn could be too slow.

[Sullla]

You guys are nuts. There is no reason to allow CivPlayers to spread their religion in our territory. Only bad things will result from that. It's incredibly easy to make promises about not holding AP victory votes right now and break them later. Stop doing the RB thing and overcomplicating every decision. Just tell them no. Please.

[Nicolae Carpathia]

Cons of closing borders:
-They deem it a breach of the NAP. Accelerates the timetable of the dogpile.

Cons of letting them spread:
-Risk of AP cheese. Counterpoint: We're probably going to conquer a Buddhist city
-They get a discount on tech steals. We can soft-counter this by building some defensive spies.

Cons of simply requesting they don't spread the religion
-Cooling of relations, but probably not a critical diplomatic incident. Safest move.

[fluffyflyingpig]

Are any of the German cities we plan on taking already Buddhist?

[kalin]

I agree we should talk to CP first, however let's close borders if they enter the borders without responding. If they want to steal from us, let them... we cannot stop them anyway and as novice said removes their EP advantage on us. Anyway in some 20 turns with drafted maces *they*'ll have to be careful with us!

EDIT: Regarding taking a Buddhist city at some point... well, it may very well be from CP and once we do that we probably won't stop until we get the AP.

Kalin

[spacetyrantxenu]

Are any of the German cities we plan on taking already Buddhist?

Maybe, but if we're that worried about AP nonsense we can announce a Crusade and burn every Buddhist city we ever send an army through.

I don't know that we have to go through maximum contortions to avoid AP cheese yet. At this point I think closing borders before the end of this turn would be appropriate, barring an acceptable diplomatic outcome. If they decide to be dicks and spread religion before we close borders, well, they aren't in position to win an AP victory yet, right? There are cheese mitigation techniques we can use to rid ourselves of an offending Buddhist city, if need be, if we exhaust all reasonable options. We're not about to lose the game yet. We will have a lot of flexibility in contingency planning soon with completion of the HE and early access to the draft. Potential international incidents like this can be solved.