AT loves it when a plan comes together!! [Spoilers]

[MindyMcCready]

The archer is just toast. Then we'd have 2 LB in his capital, with 2 more units a turn behind for reinforcements. Course, if he puts a LB in there and just lets it sit, we are basically done.

We have to assume that the archer is upgraded and an LB is dry whipped. At a minimum.

But it feels like kind of a gambit, now - one that might not work and one that is relatively expensive.

Agreed. And worse one that will benefit TT at our expense.

My gut says that we should offer peace for gpt - given that he asked for Paper for peace, he might not go for it. Either that, or drive on Eden Prime with what we have and hope that 3 cats can hurt the defense enough to allow us to to kill it - I think we'd ignore Rennoch and leave that to TT.

Agreed, 10/20 GPT is my preferred path. Its more convincing and encourages Jowy to defend more vigorously against TT. He asked for Paper, but that was before TT declared? Pretty sure that he'll change his mind once he sees that. We'll really need to get the 10-turns of forced peace clock ticking. If we back-and-forth offered for 2 turns or so that would hurt our schedule and allow TT those easy victories. Even if its white peace I think that we should accept it to stop the easy wins for TT. If you can log-in to offer/re-offer then you should do so if that's within acceptable turn split rules (not moving units ok right?).

I'm thinking option #3 or 4, myself. he'll take peace if it was offered straight up, I'm sure of that. I dunno if he'll take it if he has to pay, given that he asked for Paper before.

If its ethical to offer/re-offer within outside of your turn split, then I'd say start with gpt but cave if necessary just to close the deal.

Course, if we just sit and he sits, then TT rips apart his northern cities. This is a puzzler, all right...

I heavily council #3 and #4. During PB7 I think, xenu and MackSeven were in a war. Seven was pissed that xenu was 'over-defending' against Seven and therefore leaving other cities wide open for the vulture opportunists. I didn't really agree with Seven, because I felt that xenu couldn't defend all fronts and so had to pick one to defend. Jowy's going to do the same here and he's going to defend against us. I don't think that we can win this without a game ruining effort.

Now that Jowy has LBs, I think that the opportunity should still be there 10T from now.

It would be tragic to watch Commodore and TT gobble Jowy up while we're in enforced peace though.

PS: Maybe its just because I'm actually involved in this game rather than silent lurking,...but this map seems a lot more dangerous than most of the other PB games that I've watched.

[MindyMcCready]

Last thought. If we GA revolt into military Civics do you think that would help convince Jowy to take peace?

It might also help to convince Jowy that we're not going to war with him. For example if we revolted to military civics; made peace; revolted back to builder civics after 5T,....that might help with the surprise,....

[AutomatedTeller]

yes - CR3 is + 75% - LB is +25% and the city is 60%, so that's 85%-75% or 10% total to add to the LB. Make the LB CG1, though, and it gets much closer. Allow an LB time to fortify, and it's a disaster.

An amphi attack is a disaster, though- an addtional 50%, which makes them poor odds.

I'm kind of thinking peace, too. We can add some more cities, pick up the barbs, let him defend against TT, build infra and build up a stack of catapults.

Jowy may decide not to take peace or demand a tech or something, in which case we'll just sit at war - it doesn't bother me any.

[AutomatedTeller]

k - that's it then - we ask for peace. I'm not paying for it, but should we give it to him straight up? I mean - this little war did give us 2 GG and a city, which is good in itself.

[MindyMcCready]

k - that's it then - we ask for peace. I'm not paying for it, but should we give it to him straight up? I mean - this little war did give us 2 GG and a city, which is good in itself.

Need the deal ASAP. But worth a bluff. We came out of this about as well as we possibly could have given how unprepared we were when that 30-unit stack showed up. Overall we get a pat on the back, and a "Thanks Jowy"

yes - CR3 is + 75% - LB is +25% and the city is 60%, so that's 85%-75% or 10% total to add to the LB. Make the LB CG1, though, and it gets much closer. Allow an LB time to fortify, and it's a disaster.

An amphi attack is a disaster, though- an addtional 50%, which makes them poor odds.

But it has to be an amphi attack. A second turn means that Jowy could have his entire stack from Eden Prime into Citadel assuming that he has Engineering. And we need to assume that he has engineering. If we're surprised by that, it'll be a disaster. We also have to assume 2 LB minimum.

I'm kind of thinking peace, too. We can add some more cities, pick up the barbs, let him defend against TT, build infra and build up a stack of catapults.

Good, just want to say that 10T will go by quick. We'll need a lot of cats if we want to make a convincing run at Eden prime on T158.

Jowy may decide not to take peace or demand a tech or something, in which case we'll just sit at war - it doesn't bother me any.

Well it wouldn't bother me to stay at war if I thought that he would defend against TT. But he won't. He'll continue to park all of his troops in Eden Prime. So when you say "sit at war" I'm not sure that that's an option. We'd either have to march on Rannoch and get in a showdown with TT or we'd have to excute our Operation Lobo while distracting at Eden Prime. Neither of these are safe options or reasonble hammer exchanges which is why I'm advising total peace right now.

Crap, if I had to give him Paper in exchange for 3 easy cities, I'd say go for it. That's one way to convince Jowy that we legitimately want peace. He'll assume that we're terrified by Cornflakes or just softie pushovers. People will wonder wtf is going on.

[AutomatedTeller]

he does NOT have engineering. he is multiple techs from engineering (metal casting and machinery come first). he might later, of course. The thing is, it's not physically possible to amphi attack citadel in one turn with Nav II galleys from out of the fog.

The problem with giving him paper is that he'll bulb education and then trade up for metal casting and machinery - he'll be at tech parity in 5 turns. Giving him paper brings him back into the game. Ok - if he's offered peace straight up, I'll take it.

btw - it looks like 2metra is making a fight of it - he took back his city and did 9 (NINE!) whips - 15 pop points!!

I really don't think we should give him anything for peace. If TT gets free cities, well that sucks, but if jowy demands stuff for peace... well, what the heck is that about? He wsa the aggressor in our war. just because we kicked his butt, we should pay him?

[MindyMcCready]

he does NOT have engineering. he is multiple techs from engineering (metal casting and machinery come first). he might later, of course. The thing is, it's not physically possible to amphi attack citadel in one turn with Nav II galleys from out of the fog.

Right, but the way you've positioned it.
-Galley(s) show up 2/3 spaces outside of Citadel. We end turn.
-Jowy whips and upgrades archer. Jowy also sends troops from Eden Prime. Jowy ends turn.
-We amphi attack Citadel. End turn.
-Jowy counterattacks if he has engineering by then. We get one extra turn of travel if he doesn't.
That's how I'm envisioning it anyway. Did I miss something?

When I say that we have to assume that he has engineering, its in the time before a counter-attack occurs from Eden prime. Someone has Metal Casting and machinery other than us right? So he could easily get that from outside. Not sure what Jowy's done to stay outside of the trading blocks,,....maybe he just hasn't asked?

The problem with giving him paper is that he'll bulb education and then trade up for metal casting and machinery - he'll be at tech parity in 5 turns. Giving him paper brings him back into the game. Ok - if he's offered peace straight up, I'll take it.

RIGHT! Don't listen to me. I don't know what I'm talking about. Yes, definately bad advice. Maximum white peace it is or there abouts.

btw - it looks like 2metra is making a fight of it - he took back his city and did 9 (NINE!) whips - 15 pop points!!

Awesome. And yes, Commodore's presense on Lake Superior is most unwelcome. One day {shakes fist},....

Maybe Cornflakes will try to get his city back that Commodore took from him. It would be so nice to see that stack of Cornflakes head in another direction. For some reason I feel a strange kinship with Cornflakes right now. Him moving that settler was very reassuring. Even if that city would eventually get culturally dominated by us, it would have provided a jump point to many of our cities. Diplo points for Cornflakes. Let there be peace until there is no one else to conquor. I mean that sincerely. Ok, soft talk ended; guard back up.

[AutomatedTeller]

Right, but the way you've positioned it.
-Galley(s) show up 2/3 spaces outside of Citadel. We end turn.
-Jowy whips and upgrades archer. Jowy also sends troops from Eden Prime. Jowy ends turn.
-We amphi attack Citadel. End turn.
-Jowy counterattacks if he has engineering by then. We get one extra turn of travel if he doesn't.
That's how I'm envisioning it anyway. Did I miss something?

Well, I was assuming a different 2 step attack, where the first turn, we land next to citadel, then the next turn, we attack. We still fail against 2 LB, though

When I say that we have to assume that he has engineering, its in the time before a counter-attack occurs from Eden prime. Someone has Metal Casting and machinery other than us right? So he could easily get that from outside. Not sure what Jowy's done to stay outside of the trading blocks,,....maybe he just hasn't asked?

He fell behind and has nothing to offer to anyone. Literally - there is nothing he can offer to anyone - he already traded HBR around.

Awesome. And yes, Commodore's presense on Lake Superior is most unwelcome. One day {shakes fist},....

Maybe Cornflakes will try to get his city back that Commodore took from him. It would be so nice to see that stack of Cornflakes head in another direction. For some reason I feel a strange kinship with Cornflakes right now. Him moving that settler was very reassuring. Even if that city would eventually get culturally dominated by us, it would have provided a jump point to many of our cities. Diplo points for Cornflakes. Let there be peace until there is no one else to conquor. I mean that sincerely. Ok, soft talk ended; guard back up.

I was thinking that if we could work it out, cornflakes could go east and we could go west and divide up the world. Then, fight it out later. basically, demilitarize SWAT/Blimp area. that's tough - SWAT is 1 city from MASH, which is an important city for us, and Blimp is one city from his cap.

Well, that's a pipe dream in this game... and, frankly, that level of diplo is time consuming, so I'm just as happy.

[MindyMcCready]

Well, I was assuming a different 2 step attack, where the first turn, we land next to citadel, then the next turn, we attack. We still fail against 2 LB, though

Ok. Well that explains the catapult then. The catapult is not necessary if we have complete surprise on our side. He won't have enough troops in his capital to bother collateralling. Pure hitters and defenders in those boats.

We could do it your way, but that's much more of a grand battle where we'll smash his walls or overwhelm with many cats rather than a dagger in the back. That extra turn means that we'd have to assume that we're up against 4 LBs not just 2. If we wanted to do it your way, we'd build up a lot of troops at BJ for a second wave of reinforcements.

The critical part was that he couldn't meaningfully counter-attack because Eden Prime was threatened. He had to lose one or the other maybe both. As it stands now with LBs that's not necessarily true and he might be able to hold both.

He fell behind and has nothing to offer to anyone. Literally - there is nothing he can offer to anyone - he already traded HBR around.

Yeah, but I'm still surprised that nobody has gifted him tech Azza style. Are we the only ones who spite our neighbours needlessly?

I was thinking that if we could work it out, cornflakes could go east and we could go west and divide up the world. Then, fight it out later. basically, demilitarize SWAT/Blimp area. that's tough - SWAT is 1 city from MASH, which is an important city for us, and Blimp is one city from his cap.

Well, that's a pipe dream in this game... and, frankly, that level of diplo is time consuming, so I'm just as happy.

Prisonner's dilemna. Both sides have an incentive to cooperate but a greater incentive to cheat. There will be no talk of peace and trust. Hit Girl ON!

[AutomatedTeller]

Well, I was assuming a different 2 step attack, where the first turn, we land next to citadel, then the next turn, we attack. We still fail against 2 LB, though

Ok. Well that explains the catapult then. The catapult is not necessary if we have complete surprise on our side. He won't have enough troops in his capital to bother collateralling. Pure hitters and defenders in those boats.

We could do it your way, but that's much more of a grand battle where we'll smash his walls or overwhelm with many cats rather than a dagger in the back. That extra turn means that we'd have to assume that we're up against 4 LBs not just 2. If we wanted to do it your way, we'd build up a lot of troops at BJ for a second wave of reinforcements.

The critical part was that he couldn't meaningfully counter-attack because Eden Prime was threatened. He had to lose one or the other maybe both. As it stands now with LBs that's not necessarily true and he might be able to hold both.

Well, we never had a 1 turn complete surprise on his capital - we could 1 turn it with a 5 mover - how much would that suck for him? from out of nowhere, he loses his capitol, and has no idea how. We could do that in a few turns - it would require a turn to upgrade a galley,a turn to pick up the units and then "boom!" Of course, that's risky, too - a fortified archer defends at 8.55 with a 60% city against an amphib attack.

He fell behind and has nothing to offer to anyone. Literally - there is nothing he can offer to anyone - he already traded HBR around.

Yeah, but I'm still surprised that nobody has gifted him tech Azza style. Are we the only ones who spite our neighbours needlessly?

hey!! I resemble that! 10 turns ago, Jowy looked like he was going to kick our ass. 5 turns ago, we still had a huge stack in our land. I think people just havent' been able to react yet. Also, I think TT picked up Metal Casting, so he's the only one who could trade it and he clearly wants Jowy behind

I was thinking that if we could work it out, cornflakes could go east and we could go west and divide up the world. Then, fight it out later. basically, demilitarize SWAT/Blimp area. that's tough - SWAT is 1 city from MASH, which is an important city for us, and Blimp is one city from his cap.

Well, that's a pipe dream in this game... and, frankly, that level of diplo is time consuming, so I'm just as happy.

Prisonner's dilemna. Both sides have an incentive to cooperate but a greater incentive to cheat. There will be no talk of peace and trust. Hit Girl ON!

very true.