May 20th, 2013, 10:15
(This post was last modified: May 20th, 2013, 10:16 by MWIN.)
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Yeah, I am thinking along same lines. What happens, if WPC is invaded somebody else (CFC or UniverseCIV). If we give NAP, we will lose any opportunist chance to take WPC cities. I doubt we will do much defending WPC, if they are too weak to at least support bulk of their defense.
Also, WPC may not feel us that friendly after we take bulk of German cities. There is vast difference between what we think a fair share of German lands vs what they think. NAP might work better in this case though.
Mwin
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(May 20th, 2013, 10:15)MWIN Wrote: Yeah, I am thinking along same lines. What happens, if WPC is invaded somebody else (CFC or UniverseCIV). If we give NAP, we will lose any opportunist chance to take WPC cities. I doubt we will do much defending WPC, if they are too weak to at least support bulk of their defense.
Also, WPC may not feel us that friendly after we take bulk of German cities. There is vast difference between what we think a fair share of German lands vs what they think. NAP might work better in this case though.
Surely they won't assume an equitable split of gains would be half. In war as in much else, might makes right. If by force of arms they get what they feel is fair, then fine. If not, they should have brought a bigger army. If this makes them unhappy, we tell them we no longer like their face. 
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I really don't know what will happen with WPC and the split of German lands. We will (deservedly so) get the bulk of the cities, but I don't believe that we want to articulate that to WPC in advance on the off-chance that they have it in their head that we're just going to hand them exactly half or something. I believe they'll understand this, but I'd rather not run the risk.
In the past agreements, there were only two real clauses when it came to post-war conditions:
1) Any hypothetical peace deal with the German team MUST include both us and WPC (to prevent German team from buying out WPC or something)
2) We will attack from different directions and come to a fair split of the land.
#1 I will probably verify in my next message to them - ensure that's still understood. #2 I think we want to leave vague, and if they complain when we continue capturing cities, we can cross that bridge when we get there.
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I think we should go ahead and agree to the WPC NAP and not leave them hanging. Suggested draft:
Draft to WPC Wrote:Tatu,
We are happy to accept the NAP extension through T200.
One thing I did want to verify if you don't mind. We talked about this a couple months ago, but do you guys still agree that there will be no peace deal with the German team unless both our team and your team agrees with it? We don't want a scenario where their team cuts a deal with only one of us in order to fracture the alliance.
Thanks,
scooter - Team RB
Any complaints?
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Sounds good, scooter. Also, I'm in agreement about the division of lands. Less said the better there, in my opinion, as we look to be better positioned to take the larger partition. They can argue with our promoted maces/knights afterwards if they don't like the final distribution of annexed lands.
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Looks good to me, scooter.
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Message looks good. Maybe add a question on their plans for connecting their dyes. I think we should offer them gems early if they can move up their Calendar date in their tech plan.
If WPC manages to take a few German cities using slow-movers with the bulk of the German army arrayed against them, then I think they deserve every one of them. Finishing the war quickly is arguably the most important goal.
Furthermore, I consider that forum views should be fluid in width
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(May 20th, 2013, 14:19)kjn Wrote: Message looks good. Maybe add a question on their plans for connecting their dyes. I think we should offer them gems early if they can move up their Calendar date in their tech plan.
If WPC manages to take a few German cities using slow-movers with the bulk of the German army arrayed against them, then I think they deserve every one of them. Finishing the war quickly is arguably the most important goal.
No argument from me about that. Keep what you capture. The game rules prevent city gifting anyway.
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Sent the above message.
(May 20th, 2013, 14:19)kjn Wrote: If WPC manages to take a few German cities using slow-movers with the bulk of the German army arrayed against them, then I think they deserve every one of them. Finishing the war quickly is arguably the most important goal.
Agreed.
May 20th, 2013, 15:25
(This post was last modified: May 20th, 2013, 15:25 by scooter.)
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Ok I want to chat briefly about the message the German team sent us the other day. For reminder, here it is:
GWT Wrote:Thanks to your kindly help, we could finally connect our own gems and please our women with presents made of it.
As agreed, you can take back your gems now. We assume that the marble deal is still valid.
Our trade agreement was clean and nicely executed and we thank you for the bargain.
The thankful men of the inca
Issues:
1) We cannot cancel gems without also canceling the marble + spice as they were sent together. We could of course re-offer marble + spice after canceling gems. Also no, the automatic 10T minimum would not prevent us from declaring war on T150 (seems to be a common misconception)
2) The more messages we exchange with them between now and T150, the more likely/sooner they will ask us about a NAP extension, which of course we will not give them. Once we have either rejected their NAP extension OR ignored their request for one long enough, they'll figure out that war is coming on T150 and prepare accordingly. The longer it takes for that to happen, the better.
First, what I think we need to do is some serious slowing down of our reply to them. Example, it's T143 right now. We got that message yesterday, during T142. If we are prompt, I could see:
T142: they send above message
T143: we reply saying we may need to cancel the deal and re-offer
T144: they say "ok fine, also, about that NAP"
I don't want that, I'd like to minimize the number of turns that they realize we are coming after them. I don't think T150 being a total surprise is particularly likely, but if they don't piece it together until T148, that's still pretty good for us. Anyways, I DO think we should respond like we normally would. Were we not planning to attack them on T150, I imagine our response would be "Hey thanks. We'll cancel the gems, but that will cancel everything. So we will cancel and then re-offer the trade." I think we should respond exactly like that, but not for another 3-4 days. A 5 day response time is very typical for teams in this game, so it'll make sense. That way they get the message back from us on T145-T146 or so, they take a couple days like usual, and suddenly we're on T150.
If someone wants to make a case for doing a full cancel by letting them know we're just not interested in the spice/gems deal, we can consider that. It's within our right to do so - we're not bound by any agreements. I would imagine the rationale would be denying them the spice happiness leading up to the war would hamper their ability to produce. I'm not 100% convinced that's worthwhile, but I'm open to it if someone is convincing. The current reasoning for not canceling it is to continue to lull them into security so they don't remember our NAP is expiring soon.
Hopefully that makes sense? I think this would be profitable to discuss, moreso than Yet Another CFC Discussion. 
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