WW24: The Ashes of Brigdarrow: VILLAGE WINS

[Rowain]

Like I said at the time, I don't think it should have been so hard to decide who was scummiest of Tasunke and Brick. Also, this was getting close to the deadline, and I'd say it was time to take an actual stance rather than just manipulating the tally for tactical purposes.

Really then there remains the question why did you switch to Tasunke? Afterall I did explain my vote after you asked me.

Another minor point against him is that Rowain has a tendency to get embroiled in lots of quarrels as town, and get along famously with everybody when he's scum. And I feel like we've only seen his meek side so far.

[zakalwe]

You think Tasunke is scummy, Rowain? I don't see why anyone would have more than a null read on him.

If you want to do a policy lynch, be honest about it.

He turned up when several people had 2 votes (including him) then turned around and did a "I'm not here"-move again. But in all honesty I don't see BRick as that much more scummy in fact I can feel with him getting annoyed and therefor punishing the town with silence.
So far I really don't care who of those 2 get lynched as both have done little to nothing pro-village and I'm more interested in reaction to the current tally.

Yeah, you said the above, which didn't clarify much. You didn't care who hanged, but you still chose Tasunke.

Then later, you said this:

.... who might still return to the game is weak.

I disagree in this special case. Had he apon his return said something like'Sorry busy but will contribute D2' or shown any hint that he might play I would not have voted for him. But his return-posts and the fact that he found time to answer my one post but nothing else made me believe that he might be SK and not know what to do with it (similar to his King-play) because I didn't believe someone could be such a turd and sign up- block a fellow RB from playing and then not play.

Despite him turning blue I'm not unhappy to have the causa Tasunke removed from play.

I don't see why his behavior should point towards him being SK. It's just one more unconvincing theory from you, similar to the "Azza didn't know he was scum" theory. You keep insisting that Tasunke was suspicious, though.

As for my own switch, I said "policy lynch" when I made the switch, and later elaborated with this:

For my part, I as under no illusion that Tasunke was likely scum. But in the end, I thought there was reasonable doubt about Brick, and nobody deserved to hang before Tasunke. Mislynching Brick and being stuck with Tasunke still alive would have been painful.

I still view Brick as the most likely scum, but at least we now get another day to debate it and can make a slightly more informed decision. Also, we made him commit to "making it up to us", so we know that he can't just "defend" by clamming up.

[Gazglum]

Brick, what is your WW record to date, actually? In objective terms, please.

I only really remember you from the nerve stapling game where I was scum with you, and I remember watching the five cops game. Ichabod said you have been mislynched "loads of times", and I honestly can't remember if that is true.

Since Brick doesnt' seem inclined to answer for the moment, I'll fill in because this is what interested me too.

In his angry post, Brick says:

Okay that's it. So nonchalance screams wolf? Fucking fine then, I'll get all nice and fucking mad for you. I wa strying to stay calm cause the same shit happens every game. If I say "Yes", It's "Hey look, suspicious BRick!", if I say "No, It's "Hey look, suspicious BRick!". All That I've been trying to do is participate in this game and HOPEFULLY get to hunt some wolves instead of being burned at the stake because I opened my fucking mouth to say words. So now I"m obviously a wolf, cause since the same fucking thing is happening for the third time in the last three big games that I've played in, I decided I was going to keep cool, stick to being sensical, and wait and look for when I could actually contribute instead of getting worked up like normal and contributing to the worthless drama. But no, my desire to step back and look at things objectively, and to not get worked up over votes for me, is OBVIOUSLY a wolf ploy, even though if I was, it would apparently mean throwing my life away day 1, for what exactly? I'm not really sure.

The only big game I've played in with Brick was WW20, where he was the seer and we kind of ended up mutual suiciding with my insult duel coinciding with his reveal. Ah...happy memories.

Anyway, I went back and re-reda Day 1 of that, and Brick gets no real heat at all, except a joke vote from Zak and MOlach, then a throwaway wild accusation from the floundering Flug_Auto. I don't have time to go through the rest of that game, but I remember that Brick made it through to Day 3, and when he finally died it was to a nightkill, not a lynch.

So that makes me suspicious of his outburst this time. It feels more like a ploy to me, because I don't think his anger is deserved. He's NOT always the target of mislynches, at least no more than half the rest of us.

I'm not sure what to do with my vote right now. I think Brick is most supicious, and I don't like the idea that if someone stays quiet long enough then the votes on them should migrate away. But I also don't feel like it's doing a lot of good at the moment, since Brick hasn't checked in for a while.

So, for my imaginary Zaphod second vote, I am willing to finally listen to SlowCheetah and push ICHABOD a bit. Icky, where is the mouthy chatterbox that led me to my doom in WW20? You're feeling a lot more like Assassin in the Palace Assassin Ichabod right now, or AITPAI.

[Gazglum]

Only just got round to reading the intro... just a minor thought but if our characters/professions represent our powers in any way, and Rowain just gave his profession out, did he just accidently let us all know he is scum?

My own character has a profession that actually sounds exactly like a particular power-role, but I don't have that role. There's no connection with my actual game status.

I'll defend against Serdoa this afternoon. Short answer - I didn't make any cases because I couldn't find any big cases to make. This puts me in the same basket as half the players here (Mattimeo, Jkaen, Novice, off the top of my head). I did interrogate Brick on points I thought were contradictory in his posts, because I thought Lewwyn's case against Brick was better than anyting I could find on anybody else.

[BRickAstley]

Okay, hello again. I feel more calmed down now, and have been busy with family over for Memorial day weekend, so first I'm back. And sorry to see you go novice.

Before I get into analysis of what's going on today, I want to briefly revisit my outburst in game day 1 and why I was making such a big deal of it.

This is a social game, so yes, people accuse people of lying, and yes, I've been around it alot and expect it. However, when playing these games, I tend to try and put all of the energy and focus on the logic side of it. Look at if someone was lying, and
in doing so, the facts of what they said and did and all of that. However, I try to stay away from some of the more personal sides of the matter, like issues with personal life, or base emotions, and not let those play into my play of the game. That's why I flew off the handle at Lewwyn, and the following posts make me tempted to do so again:

I don't really believe that outburst was honest though.

His outburst was based on the idea that he was being unfairly persecuted, but he knows that that often happens in WW. In this case he was being attacked by me for a very specific tone and he tried to switch it up to show he wasn't that tone. Of course he went to far and it turned out fake, so then he disappeared until right before lynch where he could murmur apologies and slink into vote on the policy lynch.

Yes, unfair persecutions happen in WW, that happens to everyone and I understand and deal with that. That's why on the start of the day, i recognized the unfair persecution and didn't get all verklempt over it; it was mostly due to starting day nonsense, I did not see anything major I would need to get upset over, and took a composed approach to it, confident that as the day wore on, I would be able to redeem myself by helping hunt for wolves. But after Lewwyn's post, that all changed. Why?

I think partially it's cause personally, I have emotional problems. I don't care if people say I lie, but when it crossed the line into saying that I was faking the way I felt about the matter, especially when I was trying hard as it is to stay nice and cool, that threw me over the edge. The rest of it is expected and fine; I've accepted that I'll get lots of early flak (Which upon re-reading, was either day 1 or day 2, not all day 1, my bad). I think because I don't try and get to people through the emotional angle, since I feel like that crosses over the line, and it messed me up.

Also to say, there was nothing fake about my outburst. I was truly peeved, but at this point it's a matter of opinion and I'm certain it would be fruitless to try and argue about it, so I'm letting it slide.

And I'm content to let all of this slide as well. I feel bad about it because it was less than helpful and a bad reflection on myself.



Now I need to take a break for tonight, going to go see my dad run a memorial day 10k in the morning. I know I have more to offer and need to offer more, because I have been less then helpful, so I can't ask those on me not to vote for me. So I'll come back on tomorrow when I can to hunt and offer opinions, and hopefully help enough to prove the worth of keeping me around.

[Gazglum]

Alright, Brick, I'll give you some time to get back on the horse. Hope to hear more from you soon. Enjoy family time.

Ichabod, what happened in the second half of Day 1 to make you think that Slowcheetah was, again, a better case than Brick? And if you thought he was always a better case, why switch to Brick at all? Is Zakalwe that scary?

[Lewwyn]

That's all well and good brick but who do you suspect?

[Lewwyn]

From this:

I've been out longer then I meant to, and don't have the energy to look through and make any sort of post of value. I'm sorry for my outburst, and I can't blame people for lynching me, all I can say is if you let me live I'll do my best in the next day to make up for it.

To this:

Before I get into analysis of what's going on today, I want to briefly revisit my outburst in game day 1 and why I was making such a big deal of it.

[Emotional defense stuff]

Now I need to take a break for tonight, going to go see my dad run a memorial day 10k in the morning. I know I have more to offer and need to offer more, because I have been less then helpful, so I can't ask those on me not to vote for me. So I'll come back on tomorrow when I can to hunt and offer opinions, and hopefully help enough to prove the worth of keeping me around.

I mean... you say don't lynch me I'll prove myself. Then you say I'm going to do analysis but first this defense. Now I'm all tired from defending and I'll be back tomorrow with that analysis that I said I was going to give at the beginning of this post.

I mean how much bullshit do you want me to swallow? You specifically say in your post that you reread. So why is it that you can't even state one person that you suspect or you think is suspicious?? Maybe because its hard to do so when you have a cheat sheet? Being scum is hard. Lynching you when you're scum is harder.

Look back to that last statement one more time. I'll be back tomorrow with "that analysis" when I can hunt and offer opinions. These nebulous promises of help and "hunting" and analysis, which I think are simply bullshit buzzwords at this point in our WW vocabulary that scum simply appropriates, are nothing more than bullshit.

The emotional defense feels pretty good I admit. But when you pop in to give a defense and an excuse and then jet off again its pretty obvious you're stalling and you don't really have any suspects or any intention of helping the town.

[Gazglum]

Gazglum on the other hand made some scummy posts yesterday which were pointed out already. He also started the game, after a joke vote, with:

But while we're kicking the quiet ones, I'll give Novice a poke. Two posts so far, his first a jokey revenge+block vote post against Brick, which is fine. But his second post, now into 'real discussion' part of the game, kept that vote without any further analysis. Why do you think Brick is the best vote right now Novice?

In retrospect that seems like an odd post to me. Not only because we know he targeted a villager, but also because he questioned novice on his BRick-vote, just to turn around a little bit later and vote in his next post for BRick himself because "he is a better target than novice". And that was followed up afterwards with the post that basically told BRick to shut up and don't defend himself.

- I've already said that I didnt' want Brick to shut up forever, I wanted to wait for the others to come online. I felt sorry for Brick, and thought that he, Lewwyn and me were starting to go in circles and it was going to descend into ill feeling.

- Novice flipping villager is irrelevant. I targeted him because he had made only 2 posts, despite being awake the whole day, and he had retained his joke vote on Brick even as real discussion was starting to happen.

- I then voted Brick AFTER his nonchalance > shouty flip, and because I thought his responses to Lewwyn were unconvincing.

- Novice had answered my initial question, and I thought Brick was, indeed, a better target for a vote. How is that scummy?

Now, that might be me, but I am normally pushing for my case and if I have the one I suspect most available to me, I try to question him and get answers to what I found to be odd behaviour. I don't see Gazglum doing that. Actually I don't see him pointing out odd behaviour in the first place. He just concluded that BRick is a better target than novice and that's the reason for his vote.

- Lewwyn had summarized the emotional side of the case, I then pointed out that I thought his line of defence was hypocritical after his attack on Azza. I also challenged Brick’s line that he was always being targeted for mislynches, which I consider an exaggeration at best.

And when we go back and look what the others had as reasons to vote BRick, it was a first vote by zak for "Brick looking extremely scummy" (on page 1 of the thread, so a joke I'd say) and novice, following zak on BRick because "that's what I always do"-first post votes are just lame in his opinion. Finally the last vote being Rowain, so that someone else besides Azza is in the running.

So, Gazglum was on BRick for NO reason at all except that he is easier to lynch than novice (nothing else does that "he is a better target than novice" mean).

- Serdoa…no. “A better target than Novice” doesn’t mean he is easier, it means that he is scummier. Which he was. Are you suggesting that I announced I was voting for Brick because he was an easy mislynch?

When you go back and read those posts, you feel like there is some case built around it (I did believe that yesterday too) but at least at that point in the game, there was no case at all imo.

- My understanding of the Realms Beyond etiquette is that if you are challenging/attacking someone, you put your vote on them. Otherwise you are scummy for avoiding leading a hard voting trail. My vote on Novice was a pressure vote, I wanted to change it, and at the time I was weighing in on the Brick case. Of course I voted Brick.

In his next post Gazglum than points out that he agrees that the BRick-case is weak (there is none, just saying...) to follow that in the SAME post with

I think Brick is the best of a bad lot of cases at the moment

and he kept his vote there. Still no sign from him to actually hunt wolves. I think he was happy to keep his vote on BRick so he had not to think about other cases or look himself for wolves. Next post he answers to novice who found his interaction with BRick odd, especially the part in which he tried to shut up BRick. And part of Gazglums answer is:

and like Rowain, I wanted to look at other cases as well, because I wasn't sold on Brick.

Are you kidding me? The whole first day I can't see any sign that Gazglum did look at any case. Not even the one he was voting with.

I am guilty as charged as to poor hunting, this is the only attack you have made on me that I think is fair. But I looked, I did not find. Half the players were posting so little that I couldn’t get a read on them, and there seemed no reason to vote on of them over another. Ichabod and Slowcheetah were counter-accusing in a way that left me uncertain, and I couldn’t see evidence either way. You and Zakalwe seemed pure town to me. And the Azza and Brick cases were being pushed so hard by Lewwyn and you that I felt I couldn’t do much more than tag along.

I kept my vote on Brick because he got very defensive, made a misleading emotional defence about always being the victim, made a weak attack at Lewwyn, then disappeared under pressure. I thought that was scummier than any quirk of wording in somebody else’s post. I am happy with where my vote ended up yesterday, and I was hardly alone in putting it there.

Quite honestly, I found the points that other pointed out about Gazglum already good enough to vote for him (and that was the reason I did in the first place). But going over his D1-play, I really don't find anything helping his case. He did not once hunt, he did not look at other cases, he just tried to push BRick to the gallows. I'm fine with my vote where it is:

Gazglum

Serdoa, I respect you as a WW player, and I like how you go hard for your cases. You told me once that you want people to stand up to you, and counter your points, otherwise you assume they are scum/agree with you.

Well I refute you, sir! You are aiming at the wrong target, and you’re doing it alongside your Day 1 number one enemy. And you know that you have a recent history of being wrong in your early lynch preferences.

You have much more experience with the personalities of Ichabod and Rowain than I do. I understand if you want to keep your vote on me for now, but I ask that you consider their cases too, and see if their style fits with their usual town games.

[Gazglum]

I mean how much bullshit do you want me to swallow? You specifically say in your post that you reread. So why is it that you can't even state one person that you suspect or you think is suspicious?? Maybe because its hard to do so when you have a cheat sheet? Being scum is hard. Lynching you when you're scum is harder.

I'm still suspicious of Brick too, thoguh currently waiting to see what he finally offers us.

I would say, as an aside, that I think Lewwyn's attacks on Brick make Lewwyn seem pretty likely town. If Lewwyn was scum, and knew that Brick was innocent, and therefore knew that Brick really was getting upset, then it would be pretty cold to keep pushing his buttons, and would leave a bad taste in everybody's mouths after the game. I don't think Lewwyn would do that. So I'm putting him in my town basket alongside Zak and (probably) Serdoa.

I guess that means the Superwolves aren't out this game, or else I've finally succumbed to Stockholm Syndrome!