[SPOILERS] Team Unpronounceable Unicode Symbol: True Grit

[Sisu]

So what do I think of what's going on so far?

I think I've chosen, maybe not the best starting build order, but a good one. It's weird to open worker first and not have a single improved tile until t25, but literally every tile of my BFC, apart from my city location and resources, was forested - not only does this represent a massive bounty of potential production, but it's almost impossible for me to find things for an early worker to do with all these trees in the way! Constant lumberjacking is like having a "free" 5hpt tile per worker on the job. While almost everyone else has grown to sizes 2 or 3, are they working all improved tiles this early in the game? I now have enough worker labor that I can double up on improving my resource tiles while continuing to chop, keeping tile improvement ahead of population growth, and there will still be enough forests left over in my capital BFC for significant hammers towards a wonder down the line.

That said, I can't do everything I would like. Having to research three expensive techs to improve my resources puts large constraints on my choices. As I've said in conversations with Ceil, I'd originally figured to go Mysticism->religion->Wheel after AH, but given how long that will take, I don't feel I can afford to. I need the Wheel - I need to be able to hook up that copper and produce axes and spears instead of a stream of warriors that will roll over and die to a casually passing axe. And if I'm getting The Wheel before religion, I might as well go all out and grab Pottery as well - I have no confidence in being able to land Buddhism/Hinduism at the t60 mark, and I'd rather have granaries and cottages at t50 that can then speed me down the religious line. Once I have Pottery (maybe grabbing Fishing first, since it's cheap and gives me 20% more beakers on Pottery?), things become much easier and I can zoom down the bottom of the tree. I will probably miss out on Hinduism/Buddhism, but I don't have any pressing needs at the top of the tree after Pottery, so I can just go Myst->Poly->Priesthood (chop out Oracle to land the turn after discovering - easy with four chops and whip overflow)->Masonry->Mono->Monarchy and double revolt to Org Rel and Hereditary Rule.

Meanwhile, of course, I need to keep expanding. Gotta find more food. My scout is currently beating back the fog on our southern border - I won't push too far there, because I want him back on our east side to explore the coast and find us more seafood. I really hope that in the forested region near my eastern peaks there is some food, because those forests smell like Colossus to me. Resource doubler + Industrious + Forge = 55h chops into Colossus, which would be awesome. While Colossus is a little weaker for Financial civs on coast (2->3 is better than 3->4), it's significantly stronger on ocean (1->3 instead of 1->2), and that makes more extreme fishing villages substantially more profitable. If we can't find grains inland, we'll turn to the sea. Beyond the Oracle play and drive for a religion, I have no strong feelings about particular wonders or plans at the moment. Just want to keep teching, fill up my land, and leverage solid play into a tech edge in the Medieval era.

Also, now I really want my next game to be one of those where a Greens team and a Vets team play the same map, I'd love to see what one of the experts does with this start. Some grist for the lurker thread, I guess .

Thoughts on opponents/map in general to follow.

[Sisu]

First of all, I've been taking demo screenshots every turn, but I'm starting to come around to Krill's way of thinking: C&D is probably not worth it here. Especially since I've got my back to the sea - I can spend EP on my nearest neighbors and let the rest of the world take care of itself. I'm not planning to slowbuild wonders when I can help it, after all; I can get a lot more mileage from spending more time simming and microing than spending that same time figuring out my opponents' actions.

As for the nearby opponents themselves...
I've said a lot about team BXB. They have a lot of experience on their side and one of the best UUs for offensive warfare. I'll be a natural target. I can't expect to get significantly ahead of them by that point. None of this is news. So I think the winning move is not to play; make myself a hard nut to crack so they go and 'phract someone else. I'm starting to tilt towards the thought that they might be to my west and that my north ends just above the jungle line, because suttree's scout vanished north and then quickly returned to my vision. If they are to my north, though, the jungle will severely restrict my ability to compete for the land between us, which is... irksome. Working the coast might again be a good bet to deal with that problem.

suttree is more difficult to evaluate, simply because this is his first game here, and in fact his signup in the org thread was his very first post at RB. From his posts in the tech thread, he seems serious and intelligent. A lot depends on how he leverages Philosophical and the Musketeer. Dammit, I really don't want to get pincered by Cataphracts on one side and Knights with Musketeer cover on the other!

As for the map itself: I still haven't seen stone, which I feel I should have by now. If there's no stone, there's probably also no marble, and this has several ramifications if true:
1) Industrious is a relatively more powerful trait, since +50% vs +0% is stronger than +150% vs +100%.
2) Defending cities is slightly harder since walls and castles are more expensive.
3) Masonry, and thus wonders/techs that require it, are less in demand.

I haven't seen enough of the script to really evaluate it (lurkers probably have it drilled down to the specific settings ) but this landmass is large and shows no signs of stopping. I don't think this is either of the RB PB favorites, B&S or Lakes. I think we're looking at Old Reliable, Continents (or even Pangaea!). Going to want an exploratory work boat or galley with chariot when I get the chance.

I think that's all I've got to say for now. Going to open the field up to questions from lurkers if there's any aspect of my thinking you want me to go over . When Ceil is available again (he sounded busy when I poked him on chat) I'm sure he'll poke holes in a lot of this, so don't be shy .

[Sisu]

Quick update:

The copper mine finished last turn and the corn farm this turn, so now we're working the 5f tile and our workers are moving into position for chops in accordance with the micro plan. The Merovech Patrol dodged a bear in the south, and another bear, weakened to .3, showed up in the northwest. I'm guessing that some other animal weakened suttree's scout and then this bear made a snack of it; well done Baloo!

But the real news of the turn is... a challenger appears!




That flag belongs to Oxyphenbutazone, Gandhi of the Netherlands. Another Philosophical leader with a decent civ to back him up. Oxy is a newb to MP but a single-player vet, so probably not one of the softer players in the game (I'm pretty sure the title of softest is mine ). He's backed up by Mindy McCready, about whom I have no knowledge whatsoever.




He doesn't know anyone we know. Depending on his EP spending or lack thereof next turn, we can find out if we're his first contact overall or just his first contact over here in the east. I'm planning to not start spending on him until we get suttree's graphs.

[Sisu]

Turn 27

Hopped into game, with a post-it note on my monitor reminding me to check F4 every turn from now on to see when Oxy met my other friends.




Well, that was fast. Either BXB's scout stumbled onto Oxy's homeland right around the same time as Oxy stumbled across mine, or BXB's scout is somewhere in the fog nearby. Hopefully Oxy is nearby enough that BXB will 'phract him instead of us.




We're also not the first people Oxy has met - he's sinking 3 espionage into someone(s?) else. Probably not BXB - I'm guessing they met this turn, not last, since BXB and Oxy both played t26 before I did (Oxy was just delinquent about pressing enter ) and they hadn't met then. So maybe we're two continents of five? Also, we found food! ...just not anywhere we can hope to settle for anytime soon .

Demographics dump + analysis coming in another post.

[Sisu]

I've been lax about posting demos for the last few turns, so here's lots of that:

Thoughts:
While I still feel that our start was a fine one, its weaknesses are pretty apparent in the demographics. We're down in the dumps both foodwise and hammerwise as a result of being size one and not working more than one improved tile, and that's not going to change for a while yet. That said, we have three workers chopping at the moment, which is a virtual 15 hpt that don't show up on the demographics, and I highly doubt anyone else has three workers, or even that there are many with two. And since it's not like we have more than one high food tile to work anyway () we aren't missing out on much in that department by not growing. Starting turn 31 we'll be working a 5 yield and a 6 yield tile, though, and then 39 we'll be at 5/6/6, while also founding an additional city along the way. I expect to catch up in the Sullla-endorsed Food+Production stat in the next twenty turns.

Ceil, now that there's three enemies who know exactly where to find us, there's no way I'm not teching Wheel after AH. With any luck, AH will reveal horses in a spot from our early dotmap and we'll be fine for defensive military for a long while.

Lurkers, any questions/feedback? I'm looking to improve, so if there's anything you can say while keeping to the code of conduct, I'd greatly appreciate it. This is a Greens game, after all (also this thread has been pretty lonely for a few days, and I'm itching just to talk about the game).

[Old Harry]

Not a lot to add - I like your analysis - but that 90 degree overview did my head in...

[Ceiliazul]

Hey, sorry I skipped out, Catching up here throughout the day:

Okay, did lots of simming. My head hurts now
-Our copper isn't hooked up
-Also, we have no trade route income to offset our maintenance
-we chop a few monuments (uuuugh) and go for Judaism.

Yes it's dangerous to skip wheel, especially in a game full of uncharted players. On the other hand, you're surrounded by Frenchies and Byzantines who can't wait to get to the middle ages, these are not your prime candidate to try a chariot choke. However, if you can't stomach the risk, then tech wheel. But then you're risking your Oracle play... it's totally up to you.

As for trade routes, as soon as you pop borders in the 2nd city you'll have them via the river.

If you try meditation, Judaism is far away. The main thing that elevates the good players here is they pick their best shot and damn the torpedoes to get it. But hey, you're also FIN. You could play safe and just rex on the cottaged river valley, and leave wonders/religion for later. I totally support either option, but I don't think you can meander thru wheel (and pottery?!) and still land the religion/Oracle. You will not win this game by taking no chances. You will *definitely* not win this game by trying to do a little of everything all at once.

(To stop AI from popping religion, enter WB every couple turns and remove their knowledge of Mysticism. Tedious, but usually doesn't have to be done for long.)

[Ceiliazul]

Also, now I really want my next game to be one of those where a Greens team and a Vets team play the same map, I'd love to see what one of the experts does with this start. Some grist for the lurker thread, I guess .

Yep, those are lots of fun... after the game ends. It's a particular kind of torture puzzling over a start while thinking that a resident pro is showing everyone exactly how to do it right in the forum next door. But after the game ends it's cool to comparel. :-)

[Sisu]

Glad to have you back, Ceil!

The issue isn't so much that I'm worried about deliberate chokes as I am of being a target of opportunity. Until I hook up my copper, a single scouting axe could conquer my entire civilization. A chariot wouldn't outright end the game, but it could probably steal workers and generally set me horribly back.

I'm confused about why you say Wheel/Pottery risk my Oracle play, since Wheel and Pottery are required to sling Metal Casting! I need to research five techs to get there anyway: Mysticism, Meditation/Polytheism, Priesthood, Wheel, Pottery. I'm just proposing changing the order such that the economic techs come before the religious. I'm going to chop Oracle rather than slowbuild it, so I'm landing the wonder the turn after I get all the required techs in any case. Where this does set me back is in hopes of grabbing one of the first two religions, but I'm okay with that if it means not losing the game before the AD years. Furthermore, earlier access to river-FIN cottages can only help me in finishing the required techs faster.

Thanks for the tip for worldbuildering out religions. Guess I'll have to redo the sim for that, but I need to redo it anyway to figure out the Wheel-first path.

Not a lot to add - I like your analysis - but that 90 degree overview did my head in...

I'll try to figure out screenshot stitching from the tools in the IT thread, then, for my next dotmap Glad my walls of text have an appreciative audience!

[Sisu]

T28 report:




Okay, so BXB is hanging around in our area. Now that our southeast is deforested, they can see into our capital from the grass hill 99 of their current position. Oh well.

Had to end turn on flatland to beardodge. Next turn is 3 and then either 9, 6, or 3. If the bear moves 9 and there's an animal 6 of the sheep we are screwed, but we need to go scout out our east coast for food.




Our demographics continue to be shitty and not good. 3 early workers should pay dividends down the line, though.