Qgqqqqq Wrote:Ok I'm gonna reply when I've had a chance to look in-game, which (despite my accusations of dragging this out) won't be for a couple of days.
Long chat with Q, moving from forum PMs to in-game chats to gchat. Lots of new information.
Brief summary: The deal as we proposed it is essentially acceptable to him. He will be attacked by Pirates in 10 turns, though. If we also cancel the NAP with Pirates, more concessions will be on the table.
Also, he is crippled by war weariness, which probably explains why he's willing to concede more to us than to Pirates. (Coupled with my skills of persuasion, that is.)
Qgqqqqq Wrote:Y u kill workur?
(I actually have very little use for them atm, just seeing if I could yank your chain a little)
Looking at it, I've eventually decided that the land terms are reasonable, but could you settle 2S of cows instead - just to prevent cultural domination, I'm hardly going to claim them back since you've already got them. I'd also appreciate the right to settle 2S 1E of the wheat near milk.
On a unrelated note, can I have a general good faith agreement not to push culture in any border spots? I'm a firm believer in faith over an agreement, so I'm not goping to stop you building anything, just a general agreement not to push it.
As to the gold, could it be reduced a (fair) bit? The economy will really struggle over it, and I'd like to at least reach rifles before I'm hit with tanks :P
I think we have a possible deal here though
In-game chat:
Gchat:
Chat Wrote:Tim Bradley
Here
Cheradenine Zakalwe
hi
Tim Bradley
I have about 5 tiremes that can help naval, but if they emphasise astro, then two colonies go poof
We only have eps on you so no idea
Cheradenine Zakalwe
currently pirates lack compass
Tim Bradley
Pirates tried to get me to gift cities earlier
Cheradenine Zakalwe
they're researching nationalism, due in 1
Tim Bradley
That's good, but again, long term they could kill.
We are on gunpowder (3 turns
Then nation
Cheradenine Zakalwe
right, what I was getting at with my ruthless 2-city elimination term was that if you're going down, we don't want our hands to be tied
so we don't want to hit you in the back while you're defending yourself
Tim Bradley
Hmm...I know what you mean
Cheradenine Zakalwe
but if you've already lost the war, then we want to be able to pick up the scraps
Tim Bradley
But two cities too little
If I'm folding maybe
Cheradenine Zakalwe
pretty heartless, I know ... yeah we could make it more than 2 cities
also, if we're getting a long NAP with you, we'll probably pick up astronomy ourselves
so maybe we could sell you boats or something
Tim Bradley
Still a bit of me thinks that's your responsibility
No nap against that?
Cheradenine Zakalwe
hmmm, we have a NAP but not sure how rigid it is
Tim Bradley
That idea was floated between me and Gillete
Cheradenine Zakalwe
alternatively we could just cancel our NAP with Pirates, but that would cost you extra
Tim Bradley
They wanted an army.
How much?
Cheradenine Zakalwe
Gillette wanted an army now?
Tim Bradley
What is your NAP (only fair)
Cheradenine Zakalwe
I thought they were in land grab mode
We've got a 10-turn rolling NAP with Pirates
Tim Bradley
No, they wanted to give me berzerkers and galleons
Cheradenine Zakalwe
I see
Tim Bradley
It was just a notion killed quick
Cheradenine Zakalwe
we got some of those in our peace treaty, too
ok, so what's your deal with Gillette then?
Tim Bradley
I asked for some form of protection they said that, I brought up NAPs
Cheradenine Zakalwe
shall we put all our dates on the table while we're at it?
Tim Bradley
Long.
Looking up now
Cheradenine Zakalwe
We've got until T200 with Gillette, T210 with M3, and now negotiating for T220 with you. And a 10-turn rolling NAP with Pirates.
our NAP with Pirates says nothing about unit gifting... although I do consider that somewhat dastardly
Tim Bradley
T210 (200 with rolling). They basically decided it was dasterdly and "aggressive" so dropped it
Heard nothing from M3
Cheradenine Zakalwe
Sounds like everybody wants a piece of you?
you have no NAP with M3 then?
Tim Bradley
Thing is, I think we do, but they won't talk to me and tasunke hasn't said a word.
Cheradenine Zakalwe
annoying
anyway, if M3 attack you we can't help you
since we have a NAP with them until T210
Tim Bradley
BTW, I can basically choose between a NAP with you and one with pirates (they want a city at central wheat gifted)
Cheradenine Zakalwe
but I guess it makes less sense geographically for M3 to attack you
Tim Bradley
Can you promise to eat me after M3 if it comes to NAP extending?
Yeah that's my though
Cheradenine Zakalwe
Well, I'm thinking if we don't eat you now, it probably doesn't make sense to do so later either
though it's hard to predict
I'm really unsure where Gillette will be
they're expanding like crazy in the new world
but that is hurting their GNP in the short term
Tim Bradley
I choose you because you can eat me (long term survival of Civ) and Pirates are slightly less friendly (despite the fact youre at war) and I can actually stand a chance there
Yeah, they cut you off yet?
Cheradenine Zakalwe
Well, if you really want to ensure survival you should "vassalize" yourself to us
some of my team members weren't so hot on that though
Yeah, they've settled all along the coast of the new world by now, I think
we basically decided some turns ago to let it go and focus on the old world
which is why we're so thirsty for more territory
Tim Bradley
Yeah, my general philosophy for this game is TEAM survives as long as possible (I don't really enjoy it). But vassalage is a) controversial (I'm a wimp) and b) not really about TEAM surviving
Cheradenine Zakalwe
well vassal states are off so what I'm really talking about is a game-long NAP with us promising to protect you
i.e. we'd cancel the NAP with Pirates immediately, making them think twice about attacking you
Tim Bradley
But at the same time, my gifting cities is inevitably going to be controversial, so it comes down to support and Civ life.
Yeah I know they're off, meaning in game - that's why I want 50t rather then game long (I think that'll be game anyway), because it kind of preserves team as not just there to remain balance of power
Cheradenine Zakalwe
ok, so I think the main question is do you want us to cancel the NAP with Pirates, too? if so, I could try to get some quick feedback on that from the team
Tim Bradley
Make no mistake, I get that Im basically boosting you (by helping economy etc.) and that's kinda vassal, but keeping it distinctive somehow? Like a ally even though they're borked as an actual force
I would definitely prefer it (if your willing to intervene properly 900gold?) But can stand (and probably have a chance without)
Sorry if I nattered on about vassals annoyingly :/
Cheradenine Zakalwe
no need to apologize
I was the one who brought it up
I'm open for the "ally" route too.
I'm just trying to be honest... calling it a "vassal" because your actual chance of victory would be theoretical
Tim Bradley
And I do realise its WPCesque ally
Yeah I've no illusions
Cheradenine Zakalwe
but having you on our side would be useful for us, and we could try to make it mutually beneficial even though in the short term we're obviously the ones who are wringing concessions out of you
Tim Bradley
I don't care about victory really
Cheradenine Zakalwe
I mean, game theoretically speaking, we should either be friends or enemies
Tim Bradley
Yeah, like I said WPC (you are in DG right?) is best analogy.
Cheradenine Zakalwe
something in between doesn't really make sense, if you know what I mean
Tim Bradley
Nod
Cheradenine Zakalwe
yeah I'm following the DG
Tim Bradley
After this, do I have *anything* of use to you?
Apart from land
Cheradenine Zakalwe
What do you mean by "after this"? As in, would you be a useful ally in the future?
Gold is always useful, at least.
Tim Bradley
As in, resources
anything
Cheradenine Zakalwe
Right. I think we all have the same resources.
Except for the silver that you popped.
I think we could probably benefit in a joint attack too
Tim Bradley
Internets suckz
Cheradenine Zakalwe
Sometimes, we just need big numbers
Tim Bradley
So weight of numbers swamping a side border while you reap benefit
Yeah, even muskets good with cannon
Cheradenine Zakalwe
well yeah, you could tie up his forces while we blitz through with cavalry, for example
something like that
Tim Bradley
Oh and don't take that last negatively, I mean it honestly
Yeah
Cheradenine Zakalwe
let's say WPC and us were attacking from the same front in the DG
that would be unstoppable even if WPC only have "junk"
Tim Bradley
Yeah I get you
Plus knights looping round that border
Cheradenine Zakalwe
this is just hypothetical of course
Tim Bradley
Course no commitments
Cheradenine Zakalwe
just saying that if we're allies, you could still be of use to us in a war
and vice versa obviously
Tim Bradley
Id have to ask my team
Cheradenine Zakalwe
LOL
Tim Bradley
Obviously
Casper tends too want to input
Should I assume nap when playing?
Lol if you took Casper as Gasper
He's still on the team (technically)
Cheradenine Zakalwe
I was kind of wondering if you meant Gaspar, yeah but I think I got it
are you going to bed soon?
Tim Bradley
You waiting for me on the turn, cause id prefer to take a hour break (work)
Cheradenine Zakalwe
you could hold the turn for a bit longer and we could try to reach a deal
if we're getting cities, the sooner the better, from our point of view
Tim Bradley
Cool
Same (WW)
Cheradenine Zakalwe
but we can wait one more turn if you just want to play it
Tim Bradley
HOW many turns you up to in slaving?
Cheradenine Zakalwe
I guess SoZ hurt you
we whipped like crazy earlier
Tim Bradley
Nah, I want to take a couple hrs for work then come back
72T crazy?
Cheradenine Zakalwe
and drafted, but now we're not so unhappy anymore
Tim Bradley
Hate that statue
Yeah that's why I want nation
Cheradenine Zakalwe
hehe don't think we had 72T anywhere
btw, about cultural pushes
fine with an honor agreement on that, in general
Tim Bradley
You know we went guilds before CS!
Cheradenine Zakalwe
but our border cities are kind of cultural monsters as it is
yeah I know
Tim Bradley
72t in my beautiful cap
Cool
I know, just the idea bring to avoid it
Cheradenine Zakalwe
Irish Breakfast will probably be swamped by your culture
but it's kind of unavoidable
Tim Bradley
Reset IIRC
Cheradenine Zakalwe
ok, shall I talk to the team, and you can get some work done?
Tim Bradley
Just no cathedrals
Cheradenine Zakalwe
hehe, that's fine
you're not going for a cultural victory then?
Tim Bradley
Yeah, that'd be good
Can't be blowed
Cheradenine Zakalwe
ok, let's talk more later then
bye for now
Tim Bradley
I'm just acknowledging defeat
I wouldnt get it anyway
Cya
So in short, we need to decide whether we take the deal that we proposed, and leave Q to fight off Pirates on his own, or whether we also cancel the NAP with Pirates and get an even better deal from Q.
If the former, we need some kind of "piling in" clause, maybe just say that if he loses two *mainland* cities, the NAP is off.
If the latter, how much do we ask for? He already upped his offer to 900 gold, so we could probably get 20 gpt throughout the 50-turn NAP without much issue. Maybe we can even get more land. If we cancel the NAP, there's of course a risk it could lead to actual hot war with the Pirates.
If we tell Q "all deals are off", the result will be that the Pirates extort a city from him. We might be able to kill him and take the rest of his territory, though, since he is hurting so much from WW. Still... a bird in the hand, and all that.
Chatting on a bit, and then he made us an offer and ended turn. Seems like we're not communicating perfectly at all times; I thought he would wait to end turn until we had settled on something final.
But we can still accept his deal and get the GPT and resource trades sorted out afterwards.
Chat:
Chat Wrote:(Unnamed)
Hmm, can we swap workers?
Cheradenine Zakalwe
your workers become fast when we capture them, if that's what you're asking
and can be gifted back as fast workers
but that's an exploit IMO if we do it deliberately
you already have two fast workers running around somewhere, right? I saw our "Wooden Horse" was still in action
to clarify, I guess the exploit would be if you deliberately let your workers be captured so that they could be gifted back
gifting fast workers in and of itself should be fine
Also, if you gift a worker to us, it stays as a regular worker. It's only when they're captured that they get converted.
(Unnamed)
Yeah I meant if we're continuing the war a turn - probably too inconveniant though
If I whip a unit and then gift it, do I get it first?
Not spite whipping, just 1pop cat.
Cheradenine Zakalwe
If we become best friends, trades for fast workers will always be on the table. It's just the part about deliberately letting them be captured that feels a bit cheesy.
(Unnamed)
k
wasnt deliberate
Cheradenine Zakalwe
Though come to think of it, I wonder if we actually did something like that in our first peace treaty with you way back when - so maybe I'm being a hypocrite.
I know. Those workers were trying to chop OUR forest though. Otherwise I would probably have left them alone.
(Unnamed)
I honestly had nothing else to do with them lol
Cheradenine Zakalwe
Not sure I understand your question about whipping/gifting
you mean you whip a unit, then gift the city?
(Unnamed)
I wip city this turn. do i get unit before accepted?
Cheradenine Zakalwe
Right.
No idea.
I'm a pitboss newbie.
(Unnamed)
same
Cheradenine Zakalwe
This is sequential turns to boot.
(Unnamed)
You're doing SLIGHTLY beterr
Cheradenine Zakalwe
Obviously I would prefer that you NOT whip the cities.
In fact, please settle all your great people there before gifting them.
(Unnamed)
1 pop 40 h already...
lol
Cheradenine Zakalwe
My best guess is that the end-of-turn production/research/growth happens when you end your turn.
(Unnamed)
same
again, do you mind?
Cheradenine Zakalwe
Then it becomes our turn (after M3 and Pirates and Gillette), and we get the diplo offer and can accept the city.
The unit that you whipped would teleport to your territory.
(Unnamed)
Ooh just realised you stole our gold
Can we have that
Only now realising I might have a happy cap soon...
What are Great People?
Cheradenine Zakalwe
annoying little critters... sometimes they spontaneously appear in your cities
you should just gift them to us and we'll dispose of them
(Unnamed)
Thanks. Tasunke deleted ours IIRC
Cheradenine Zakalwe
for real?
(Unnamed)
*checks* nope, just left us with 6/200
He did settle on wheat...
Cheradenine Zakalwe
well you have lots of cheap GPs to enjoy then
yeah, we noticed that
probably didn't know about the 2-tile distance thing
(Unnamed)
Yeah ok, that was honest mistaek
The rest of the horrible micro tho...
Cheradenine Zakalwe
so you'll want gold and furs, right?
we can only offer furs to T200
but we do have two gold resources now
(Unnamed)
Why T200 BTW?
Cheradenine Zakalwe
maybe we can secure one of the silver islands, but I won't be surprised if Gillette's taking ALL of them
because we're getting furs from Gillette as part of the NAP
(Unnamed)
Can I get a WM thrown in
I know nothing
Cheradenine Zakalwe
sure
(Unnamed)
didnt whip it turn rolling
Cheradenine Zakalwe
Ok, you ended the turn?
in that case we've got some time to iron things out
(Unnamed)
idiotically
moved all units ou, ruined micro
Cheradenine Zakalwe
I logged in and see your offer
(Unnamed)
eh well
Cheradenine Zakalwe
I wonder if it could have been offered and accepted while it was still your turn?
(Unnamed)
It is right right
Cheradenine Zakalwe
perhaps not
(Unnamed)
I didn't wanna do that for the production - then lost that when evaced :banghead
probably
Wonder what culture will do
Cheradenine Zakalwe
ah, you became unhappy and messed up the city micro, I get it
annoying
(Unnamed)
Was microing for merchants, scientists, exactly 5 prod
You taking the deal?
Cheradenine Zakalwe
Actually, I hear the city is undefended right now so I think I'll reconsider...
(Unnamed)
I mean, 1 HA could do a nice backstab now...
:nervous:
Never trust a troll bearing gifts
Cheradenine Zakalwe
I guess that part of the deal was set either way, I just don't know what the other details will be
concerning Pirates
(Unnamed)
Please report this in thread
what???
Cheradenine Zakalwe
I'm asking the team if we want to cancel the NAP with Pirates, etc.
(Unnamed)
Oh yeah, lets say that only mattersfor gold gift
gpt that is
Cheradenine Zakalwe
Right. That's probably fine.
(Unnamed)
going to bed soon, please offer if you want peace this turn
Cheradenine Zakalwe
Sure, I'll leave this open for the moment so I can potentially accept it as is.
That would let us have the cities for one more turn if I understand correctly.
(Unnamed)
So you dont need me to offer
Cheradenine Zakalwe
As opposed to reoffering.
(Unnamed)
?
Ok GN
Cheradenine Zakalwe
Yep. GN
(Unnamed)
Oh and like I said, report to your teamates,
as I will to mine
Cheradenine Zakalwe
Of course, I'm already waiting for them to chime in.
Go ahead and accept. Gold deal can be negotiated later and to be honest I'm ok even without it. I'd prefer to see them strong enough to face Pirates. I feel we could also gift our weakest maces. We can't be sure their final usage. I don't like burning bridges towards Pirates so I suggest we don't start NAP cooldown.
Sent To Q Wrote:I accepted the peace offer, and sent you furs and gold. I also offered to trade maps.
We're still talking about what to do about the Pirates. Some of us don't want to burn our bridges with them.
So give us some time to discuss that and then we can sort out the GPT component of the deal.
Another thought - perhaps you would like to acquire some of our maces? We don't KNOW that you'll end up at war with the Pirates, so a trade like that would probably pass our ethical board.
Sent To Q Wrote:Oh and I also offered open borders.
![[Image: gillettesettling.png]](http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/5959/gillettesettling.png)
(I actually have very little use for them atm, just seeing if I could yank your chain a little)
