League of Legends General Discussion Thread

[abuzeus]

I wouldn't pick Tristana to counter Vayne. With the caveat that I often pick Trist into Vayne because I play her an awful lot, and I don't think she is countered by her.

I believe that I never wrote that Tristana counters Vayne. I just feel that she is a strong pick into Vayne, in a nutshell because you don't get outscaled by Vayne and because your skills allow you to opt out of any duels that Vayne picks. I dislike the "counter" thingie that seems to be so popular in League. For me, a counter is something that fundamentally invalidates an opponent's mechanics, e.g., Kassadin vs. TF or Anivia. At mere mortal level of play, familiarity with a champion and outside factors are probably much more important. Especially around Silver, where I believe I am currently placed (if you don't think that's true, because I have not proved it, I believe to be at least a Silver Trist for the sake of the argument). And I have seen people's champion mastery trump "counters" even at tournament level, for example when Froggen stomped that Kassadin...
Point being that "counter" is not a good notion, and certainly Trist does not counter Vayne. But I still feel it's a good pick, especially when you are not confident in your skills to shut her down.

Caitlyn (range) and Graves (burst) are much better counters. And I agree with Gustaran that 'doing something approximately as well as another champion' is pretty far from any definition of 'counter' that I've ever heard.

Caitlyn is probably another good pick. As far as I know she is also said to have a weak mid game though.

Some points about abuzeus's post:

Vayne's power spike is with BotrK, but IE is only 600 gold more expensive. All things equal, you should be ahead a few CS, so I would say you get your power spike not much later.

No, Vayne's power spike is first of all with her ult (her ult is SO good - Trist gets a power spike around this time too) and then a further spike with BotRK, and it's a MUCH bigger power spike than Trist getting IE. Vayne is strong mid-game; Trist is very weak mid-game (of which more later).

My point was that you can opt out of the duel with Vayne. As soon as you hear "the die is cast", you jump away or wait until Vayne pops out of stealth and ult her away (assumption is you are not dead already). You can, of course, get CC-locked. But I feel it's only fair to assume that Tristana gets a kill earlier then (CC-lock assumes a support with CC or the jungler coming. Might as well have the same with level 2+ Tristana burst). I'm a terrible Vayne though, so I might be wrong about all of that.

And finally, a six item Trist should beat a six item Vayne, assuming that Q is up and that Vayne does not get the stealth from her ult (or a condemn).

Firstly, this is irrelevant. ADs never ever face each other in a fight to the death with six items. That's just not a situation that ever happens in any normal game of League of Legends. Six-item ADs are primarily judged on their ability to kill tanks. Second, I'm not sure it's true... I think for a fair fight you have to assume Vayne's ult is up, and I think it would be close.

Sure, generally you don't face each other, though that has happened to me (I'm Silver, remember). I would say that Vayne has probably the better tank-killing ability with Silver Bolts. Maxed Trist Q and the added range sure help, but I have run into tanks that took too long to kill even as maxed out Trist (Randuins, Sunfire, Warmogs, Thornmail takes a while to take down even with six items, LW included). However, I feel that Trist makes up a bit for this by her safety and her ability to re-enter a fight with Rocket Jump.
About Vayne ult, I must have phrased that badly. I meant that you need to be able to deny her stealth. Either you carry a pink (if not maxed on items), have your support do it, or you buy Oracle's (at six items). If Vayne gets extended periods of stealth, you lose. I feel that this is not an unreasonable assumption super-duper late game, because tactical stealth (Vayne, Talon, Akali) is easily denied when everyone has spare gold. That rarely happens, of course, but if I as a Silver level support can always carry a pink when facing those champs, so can other people

Of course the IE rush might be a noob tactic, but I feel that Vayne is one of the champions against which you can get away with it

No, you should always rush BotRK, and I'd be surprised if Phreak said that recently. IE doesn't benefit Vayne very much... she benefits from attack speed and doesn't really need AD because of the AD on her ult. BotRK also benefits Vayne in her chasing skill, and it complements her tank-killing abilities.

The IE rush was on Trist. Rushing IE on Vayne feels about as useful to me as rushing BT on Tristana. I meant that on Trist, you can rush IE when against Vayne. Sorry if I wrote this ambiguously.
I remember Phreak saying that BotrK rush on Trist is bad probably sometime between spring and summer splits. I tried it out and buying IE first against "safe" lanes (i.e., lanes without heavy damage that you can not avoid, Draven or Cait say) felt good, so, since it works for me, i tend to stick with it unless I feel that I need added sustain.

Finally, some general points about Trist. The thing about Trist that is that she's basically a burst caster until she hits about level 9-10. She has no skills that scale with AD at all; in fact, three of her skills scale with AP. So getting big AD items isn't nearly as impactful in lane as it is on other ADs, and her skills are much more important by comparison. Once you lose your burst, which happens at about level 8, you start putting points in Q, which means it's maxed at about level 13-14. (Usually my first point goes into Q at level 8, but then I usually max it. So 9 is either Q or E depending on the situation, 10 is Q, 11 is R, 12 is Q, 13 is Q, 14 is Q if necessary.)

My wording must have been horrible. So, I put three points in E and max Q after. I learn Q at level four (might as well). So Q has two points in it at level 7 and is maxed at level 10. Then I max Rocket Jump and the last two points go into E at levels 17 and 18. The rationale behind that is that E hits diminishing returns after a few levels because you don't have the AP to back it up (and the grievous wounds effect does not scale). On the other hand, once you invest into some AD, having additional attack speed becomes really good.

I feel that it is not unreasonable to assume that you can buy some AD once level six has been passed. Specifically against Vayne, my Silver level experience shows that you can get a lot of harass in with a BF sword and E, and the harass potential is low, so you don't need extra lifesteal beyond quints and Doran's. I felt that I outlined in my previous post how Vayne in particular has a hard time retaliating against Tristana harass. Technically, you also have the range advantage come level 2 (E also ranges up with levels now). It may be true though that people at my level are terrible at evading auto attack harass and I suck at other parts of the game, whence that would be a point I overestimate and people at higher rating laugh at it.

That is when you really start scaling with AD, assuming you've not fallen too far behind. It's also about when your range really starts ramping up to something noticeable. By this time you'll typically have at least IE and PD, and you'll be working on the Last Whisper. When you get LW, that's when you really start to scale and become a big threat as an AD carry, as you can begin to shred tanks from long range with a 90% attack speed boost.

But in the downtime between level 8 and level 14, Trist is very weak indeed. She doesn't have any meaningful burst any more, as you don't have AP, and her only AD scaling ability is still being levelled. She just can't compete with the majority of AD carries during this period (and she's certainly a LOT weaker than Vayne is).

My personal experience seems to be that the gap closes a bit earlier. You don't buy PD for the attack speed (you have plenty come level 10), you buy it for the crit chance. And I rarely leave laning without at least IE or close to it (of course, there is the occasional game where everything goes wrong and you have four and five man dives against you at minute ten. But then the game is probably lost anyway, regardless of ranged AD choice). I would not disagree that you may be weaker than many ranged ADs during mid game, but I feel that Tristana's early game and good scaling make her a strong pick against Vayne. I really dislike games where the clock is against me, so maybe that serves a preference of mine (don't have to shut down Vayne, only pull about even). Coincidentally, I am also a CLG.eu/EG fan

Sorry if I feel like a zealot. The above is just my personal experience at Silver level of play. Given how a bell curve works, it might apply to some people though

[v8mark]

Yep, agree with a lot of that, and the first two points weren't addressed to your post, but at the rather bizarre discussion that was occurring in parallel

I also agree with IE rush on Trist, and that makes a lot more sense. I do that too. The only thing I do really differently is put at least four and sometimes five points in E, and generally this is to aid with farming and pushing. Farming with level 1-2 E is quite difficult as Trist, whereas farming with level 4 E is very easy. It also lets you push, and you can often get good harass on opponents who don't realise that standing next to a creep that's about to die is a poor idea.

[Jowy]

Sulla, watching you suffer in Silver solo q is making my day (just found the stream)

[Sullla]

The last game was particularly absurd; we had a duo queue on both teams, which meant that there were four Bronze players (two per team) in the game. It was just as bad as you would think. I'll link the recording for the curious: http://www.twitch.tv/lcsullla/b/443314220

[UberTri]

The last game was particularly absurd; we had a duo queue on both teams, which meant that there were four Bronze players (two per team) in the game. It was just as bad as you would think. I'll link the recording for the curious: http://www.twitch.tv/lcsullla/b/443314220

Oh yeah! Since that nidalee built Tear into Archangels, let's dance.

[UberTri]

For those that want to see the last game Sullla did quicker, here's the link to the game. Enjoy.

[Gustaran]

Sulla, watching you suffer in Silver solo q is making my day (just found the stream)

Disappointing. Only regular support play - was expecting legendary Annie top 1v2 action!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCn5kYUWw0I

[Jowy]

Just checked out my old NA account, got 900 RP there. Anyone want some skin gifts? :P

[UberTri]

Just checked out my old NA account, got 900 RP there. Anyone want some skin gifts? :P

I do! Maybe that Reverse Annie skin.

[Voldymort]

Just checked out my old NA account, got 900 RP there. Anyone want some skin gifts? :P

Veigar Greybeard would be nice...so i'm all set for when "The Hobbit part 2" arrives