RB Pitboss #1 [SPOILERS] - Louis XIV of Byzantium

[Kodii]

From Krill/Memphus:

Hi mh, Kodii,

Congratulations on making to the other side of the world And great timing as well, what with alphabet and all. Depending on if your warrior can survive the barbarian onslaught, sunrise is only 3 turns away, moving 9, 9, 6.

I'll gift you HBR and anything else you need off me as soon as one of us has Alphabet. Congratualtions on the pyramids and the GW btw, they must really be helping you happy cap on this map.

If they is anything you want to chat about or ask me about, please feel free to use googlechat or gmail to contact me

shadyforce to the 3Some:

Hey,

I've been chatting with regoarrarr trying to acquire Maths off him for small fee. To do this, I've told him I'm getting Maths from someone in the near future, but getting it a few turns earlier would be some help so I can do some chops earlier, and hence I'm willing to pay a small fee. But he's been asking me who I'm getting maths off and seems unwilling to make a trade unless I reveal who's teching maths. My guess is that he suspects it's you and wants confirmation, probably to evaluate his probability of getting the Hanging Gardens.

Are you still hoping to beat him to the Gardens? It seems that if you're not getting Maths until T85-87 or thereabouts then assuming rego is genuine about having a few turns in the Aqueduct, he'll surely beat you too it comfortably despite your industrious trait. Let me know how you'd like me to handle this. If you have given up on the HG then I could tell you are the one on Maths and maybe you can also get something out of him for a no build clause.

He's expecting an answer soon so please let me know as soon as you see this.

For your information:
The city in question, the one with copper on a plains hill is called Green Township. I can only see the city and it's BFC tiles south of it. I cannot see the north half of the BFC, but I can extrapolate through tile bleeding. The city is on a grass hill. There is 3 coast tiles, one of which contains a netted fish, 2 lakes, 7 jungles 2 of which contain dye, 1 banana and 1 concealed. There is a plains hill tile which I can't see fully but rego told me there was copper there really early in the game so no reason to think he was lying. There are 2 concealed grass hills I can partially see. There is 1 grass forest I can see and unless I'm mistaken, there is 2 flat grass tiles and a grass forest concealed in the fog. The city is on size 5 and there is 47 hammers invested in whatever it's building.

Us to the 3Some:

Hi,
we will have Math on T85.
Our attempt on HG will depend on whether reg has Stone. I think he will at least be able to trade it from the UTA.
That said, we are fine for you to tell him that you were getting Math from us. Maybe you can be a bit less specific on our ETA.
Saying you would like to acquire it a couple of turns earlier would help you. (?)
I guess if you get Maths earlier from him, you want to go Construction next?

I will have more time to look at things in 4 hours or so.

Us to the 3Some:

We are about to offer regoarrar our assurance not to pursue HG for a cash payment from him (after Currency, which he is already researching).
Out of interest, how much are you offering him for early Math?
Would be nice to get that cash back from him (if it is cash).

Although, if he believes Math is sufficiently far away from the NUTA, he might decide to risk going after the HG without an agreement.
Again my question, any of you guys can see his trade screens? Does he have stone?
Thanks

shadyforce to the 3Some:

40 gold and info on who is doing Maths (deal not yet confirmed). He may reject the deal if he gets assurance from you about HG. Does he know that you are the one doing Maths? If not then the info is still worth it for him. But sure we'll see what he says. Get whatever you can out of him and if I don't get Maths, no big deal. Maths now won't speed up my next tech that much because I'll need a few turns of saving money either way (plus I'd save money and switch on science only after a few libraries are whipped.) It's just the extra forest hammers would be nice.

Us to the 3Some:

No, he does not know for sure we are the ones researching Math.
All he knows, is that we think we have a chance to compete for the HG, implying we will get Math from somewhere sooner rather than later.

[Kodii]

From Krill:

You guys going to play your turn today after logging in?

To Krill:

Yep, played.
Got attacked by one warrior but survived at full health.
looks like your Quecha suffered from a bad dice roll?
We took out the offender.

You will have noticed The Lins switching to Vassalage.

From Krill:

Thanks for kill the warrior; it stops the Lins from getting another XP on a vulture, or god forbid a spear

The change to vassalage isn't unexpected; it's a free change along with HR, and I doubt the costs are that high at this stage in the game.

That's not too big a problem atm for me, but thanks for the heads up all the same

From Krill:

As a side note, I often chat with people using google chat. Do you use the same method to chat, or some other chat program?

To Krill:

We use chatzy (the one we used at RB in the Apo Game).
Kodii and I created a special gmail account for this game, but I am assessing that eMail through my eMail client.

Do you feel like chatting right now?

From Krill:

Not at the moment, still putting together a few tech plans. Just wondering about it for the future. I don;t have an awful lot to talk about (you all got the major talking points via ruff and Shady ages ago...)

From Krill:

Sorry to be a pain, but...what time are you guys going to play the turn tonight, so I can make myself available?

To Krill:

Something urgent has come up, which will require some internal and external discussion.
We will need some more hours, I believe.

From Krill:

No problem, if you need a hand with it, just let me know and I'll try to help you out however I can.

[Kodii]

To the Lins:

Just quickly:

Can we agree on stop spending epts?

From the Lins:

Yes we can. We need to spend 1 more point to be able to see your
demographics then we can agree to both stop.

Imhotep to the NUTA:

FYI. Strange that they should trade with me...

Hi Imhotep,

One of our scouting warriors has (finally) met your fine civilization
and brings you greeting from the League of Lin. We are looking forward
to future cooperation.

We noticed that you lack Alphabet and we were wondering if you were
interested in some trades.

Kalin of the League

Us to the NUTA:

Hmm,
I think you are the last civ without Alphabet?
So its value for allowing tech trading is zero.
The Lins must know this, so its just another attempt of fishing for info.

shadyforce to the NUTA:

I don't think it's fishing for information, I think they are just trying to get something out of you for Alphabet since the whole world knows it anyway.

It is interesting that members of the UTA are open to trading their technology with us NUTA. They are clearly a trading block but I guess not an exclusive one. I suspect they will give each other first choice for no-cost-to-each-other tech trades and only go to us for cash or other techs the UTA don't have. I purchased Maths of regoarrarr and while I was reluctant to fund his future research for a tech I was going to get of MH/Kodii anyway, 40 gold for what will be close to 80 extra hammers from Maths boosted chops was too good a deal to pass up.

In this case though, I'll give it to you whenever you want it. Or anything else for that matter, especially if it will help your tech rate. Just ask in-game when you need it.

Krill/Memphus to the NUTA:

I agree with Shady, they are just trying to get something for nothing, as they know that Imhotep can get alphabet from Shady for nothing. Selling the techs to everyone outside the UTA for gold, units, etc is an attempt at profiteering, and at stopping a counter alliance from forming.

I'll also gift whever techs I can to whoever needs them, just email me asking for them, or propose the deal in game.

Please forward the email to Imhotep for me...

[Kodii]

**The following conversation spans a significant timeframe (ie before meeting Krill)**

Ruff to NUTA:

Just an update ...

Ruff - Iron Working (already got it)
Imhotep - Monarchy (ETA please)
Shady - Alphabet (2?)
mh - Kodii - Maths (ETA please)
Dsplaisted - Metal Casting (ETA please)
Krill - HBR (ETA please)

Also, where are we heading after we finish these trades? Next round
of techs include ...

Aesthetics
Calendar
Construction
Currency
CoL
Fued
Mono
Machinery
Compass

Does anyone have any preference?

dsplaisted to NUTA:

I expect to finish Metal Casting on turn 83 or 84. I think the highest priority techs are Construction, Currency, and Calander. I think we should try to research Construction as fast as possible. I have a good research rate so I might be the one to do this, although if someone can start it before I can, perhaps they should research it. My preference would actually be to research Code of Laws and found a religion. If I went for construction, I could get it by turn 110 or before, I believe.

(I didn't include Krill on this message since I haven't met them in-game.)

Us to NUTA:

Forward to Krill as well, please.

Hi
I filled out the table according to our knowledge.
With no UTA neighbour nearby ("only" Broker) and being in Representation, I think we would like to take over some the tech work for the NUTA.
Aesthetics > Literature is therefore high on our agenda, as you will have gathered.
We would be happy to assist where we can the military arms of the NUTA wrt. getting up Heroic Epics.
I guess we will have to compare research speeds to decide who tackles the more expensive techs.
The late Monarchy (and therefore late Feudalism) will be a problem (no offence, Imhotep).

Krill to NUTA via Ruff:

We already have HBR
ready to gift to over as soon as I have alphabet
Also I'm currently saving gold for a run at construction
the rest of us kinda need it for some proper units

Ruff to NUTA:

I am happy to take a run at Currency.

dsplaisted to NUTA:

Can you ask Krill if he thinks he can get Construction before turn
110? If not it might be better for me to research it.

Ruff to NUTA:

Krill says he can land Construction 10 turns after Maths.

Imhotep to NUTA:

My ETA on Monarchy will speed up a little, as I begin to work some cotttages now. I guess around T90 is realistic.

shadyforce to NUTA:

Alphabet in and stuff is being traded around. I'm still looking for any religious techs from Meditation onwards, and I also need Iron Working off Ruff so please accept/offer trades in game when available. Also, if anyone needs any techs off me, let me know.

Ruff to NUTA:

Regarding techs, I did say that I was happy to tech Currency but
looking at it, I find that I currently suck at teching. As such, I
think I should move of a tech as important as currency and clean up
some others ...

poly
mono

Us to NUTA:

Hi,
that sounds prudent.
We would be interested if you were teching Polytheism, for obvious reasons.

From Ruff:

When are you looking at starting on Aesth?

To Ruff:

Hi,
I have to discuss with Kodii first. ( Big timezone difference.)
I would go for Aesthetics after Maths.
And then Literature obviously.
For that we would need your Polytheism.
Could you get us an ETA on it?

We will have to sort out our next round of teching in the NUTA soon.
I guess people are currently saving up money for deficit research once Math & Monarchy come in.

I think the UTA breaking apart any time soon is not going to happen, so we will have to coordinate research quite cleverly or the next few turns of tech trades.

From Ruff:

The optimal approach would be for me to save $ for the next 4 turns
and then run at poly (prob 5). I can start earlier than if required -
just let me know.

To Ruff:

We still need 4 turns for Math.
After that Aesthetics is even more costly and we don't get the discount from the UTA all knowing the tech.
I think your approach sounds good, especially if you plan to chop/whip out some libraries.

Btw. How feasible do you think is your plan to attack Broker with Praets. Especially since he rather well defended?
I guess you are in close contact with Krill about his declining situation with The Lins?
Would it make more sense to coordinate actions between the two of you against a mutual enemy?
Just thinking out loud.

dsplaisted to NUTA:

I've finished Metal Casting this turn, so if you want it, just request
it. Note that I am planning on building the Colossus, so please don't
steal it out from under me.

Now I need to decide what to research next. I'm thinking of
researching Code of Laws so we can get a religion. I could probably
finish it by turn 98. If the UTA has already started it they can
probably beat me to it- does anyone have any idea whether they are or
not?

Imhotep, what is your ETA for Monarchy, and if you were to research
Calendar next, what would the ETA for that be?

Krill to NUTA:

I'm currently working on a GS, and as an academy isn't worth an awful lot to me if I am funding others research, I'm happy to bulb Philo and gift you all missionaries so that we at least get 1 religion if CoL falls before dsp can get there, and I think it might.

Imhotep to NUTA:

I have 8 turn to go on Monarchy, which makes it due to T91.

[Kodii]

mh to me:

Beware: Attack of the giant picture!

Hi Kodii,

I had a go at the dotmap.
Borg space (incl UM3) and Daniels Sphere of interest are in there.

Here the first idea.



Black Dot (Fish/Iron):
I propose to plant Moai City/Black Dot) on a new tile. It will lose out on the cows, but it will work water tiles anyway AND it will grab Iron for getting the city started with production.
We have to break that news with Daniel, but I don't see him objecting much. Revealing Iron and the latest settler "war" with Ruff forces our hand to change our dotmap.

Pink Dot (Cows/Corn/Oasis):
That leaves the cows for a very nice PinkDot/(revised CityH). Cows, Corn & starting with or loaning the oasis tile

Yellow Dot (Clams/Oasis):
Lost a lot attraction with ChironBetaPrime in its place. Could be moved 1S to grab the river grassland and give up on the plains hill and some water tiles. Although it will annoy Daniel if moved 1S.

Red Dot (Deer/Sheep/Stone):
Overall a decent city. Can borrow stone from CoT, especially since CoT will seldom use it.

Green Dot (Fish/Horses):
Pretty important as it is one of our 2 Horse locations.
Apart from that way too much tundra fro my taste. Will also take some time to get irrigation going there.

Cyan Dot (Sheep/Silk):
Again, nothing too spectacular. Gives us a Silks.

Blue Dot (Cows/Copper):
Actually a nice filler city. Low maintenance costs and can borrow the copper from CoT to get started.

Dark Green (Crabs):
A must have simply for stopping the Borg encroachment. Apart from that, average city.

Sickly Greenish Dot north of BH:
No Food anywhere. Can be moved around but won't improve much. But rather we settle that spot, than the Borg. Urgency depends on Border Agreement.

Sickly Greenish Dots east of BH:
Again, no decent food tiles, but Horses, Silks, a river and plenty of green lands.
It looks like we have that corner more secure from Broker than we thought.
Apart from the deer/wheat spot we can probably settle undisturbed there.
All the Sickly Greenish dot could be re-arranged.

And here Idea #2:
Modifications only in the south and east.



Green Dot moved west, grabbing sheep and horses.
This is probably a better spot for Green Dot.
Red Dot gets a bit shafted but should stay there and is still a good city with deer and lots of grasslands.

Cyan Dot also shift SW, now grabbing the Fish and the Sheep and more coastal tiles.
Grabbing the Silk is not that importanat as we have plenty of it in the Silky River Valley which appears uncontested.

Sickly Greenish Dots east of BH have shifted a bit as well.

So have a look.
In terms of priority for the next cities I would say:
1.) Black Dot (Moai, Iron)
2.) Green Dot (variant2) or the Sickly Greenish one grabbing Silks and Horses. (Horse, (Silk))
3.) Pink Dot or Sickly Greenish one grabbing Silks and Horses.

Waiting for your thoughts.

Me to mh:

I agree with your dotmap and conclusions, but I'd also like to finish unfogging the south before completely determining our dotmap down there.

mh to me:

Hi,
I assume you agree with the second plan (Variant #2)?
I don't think the south will hold much surprises. There are just a handful of tundra tiles to unfog.
And we don't really have any units for scouting.

So what do you think. Which city after Black Dot?
hat would determine the direction of the CoT worker, I think, unless we also want him to go north.
Note, that with the decision to go for Black Dot, there is only one forest to chop and the iron to connect.
So I suggest the two workers at BH road towards PinkDot under fog busting cover of the warrior.
Then the settler founds Black Dot. Warrior and 2 workers go then to road towards iron and chop forest and mine iron.
This could be helped by the CoT worker.

Kobe will have two workers chopping out the next settler, which should go for one of the Sickly Greenish Dots. Possibly the one grabbing Horses.

How do we want to play Ruff?
We have given him Monotheism (120b) for IW (300b).
He is entitled to get Maths (375) for free next turn. I just want him to understand that we are expecting Polytheism as the final part of that deal.
He cannot expect to get Maths for free and Aesthetics for Poly. I just don't trust him enough to throw him free techs.

Making the NUTA work is one thing, feeding free techs to a neighbour that has crap GNP and is instead snatching city sites from us is another thing.
What's your feeling?

Me to mh:

I prefer Border City 1's location in the first dotmap. Also, Border City 2 can be moved 1S. A lighthouse will make those lake tiles 3food.

I wouldn't mind going to the original Border City 1 location (horse and silk) location after the Moai city, since our other city positions are safe. It is also closer to Kobe (where I assume our next worker will come from) and will be connected to our capital automatically. I am a little turned off by the lack of food though. Pink Dot after that for sure.

The worker actions sound good. The CoT worker can help with the iron and Black Dot initiative.

I am still very unsure how to work with/around Ruff. He is going to have to make some concessions, but don't know how to go about demanding that. I think he will cooperate as long as the NUTA exists. The moment it is no longer needed, we are in trouble.

[Kodii]

dsplaisted to 3Some:

I had recently allocated my espionage points to ZPV in order to see
his research, but it turns out he wasn't too happy about that. We had
this conversation:

ZPV: would you mind diverting espionage spending to someone else?
dsplaisted: hate to say it but I would...
ZPV: because, say, I still have OB with you for GLH
dsplaisted: hehe, you do make a good point
ZPV: and whyever wouldn't you want to?
dsplaisted: well I have demographics on everyone close to me, thought
I might like to see someone's research
dsplaisted: but you make a good point about the trade routes, I'll
redirect them elsewhere
ZPV: ok, thanks

So now I've assigned my EPs to Broker. We probably want to divide our
espionage spending so one of us can see what one other team is
researching. I don't have any EPs vs Krill or Kalin so I don't have
their charts but that's not a big deal for me. So if either of you
want to assign EP vs ZPV (after a few turns so he doesn't suspect
anything), go ahead.

shadyforce to 3Some:

I can see the charts of Rego, Sunrise, Kalin and ZPV. And next turn, I'll see the charts of Broker.

Us to 3Some:

Hi guys,
thanks for all the tech trades that have been conducted so far.
We offered some more religious stuff to you (Myst to Daniel, Priesthood to Brian).
Daniel, you may want to accept this turn, so we can get you the next techs this turn as well (Meditation, Priesthood).

We have a slight glitch in our trade routes to you, as in, we have none.
Daniel, I assume you have ChironBetaPrime connected to the rest of your civ?
Any chance to get a road on either of the two floodplains to its east, any time soon?
We believe that this road is the missing link.
Do you have a worker available?
Otherwise, we use on of ours.
I don't think I can road in your territory , though.
So it has to be a temporary gift.

Please reply soon, as we have not finished our turn yet, and can move the worker to Chiron or have him doing something else.

dsplaisted to 3Some:

I will have a road on the floodplains on turn 82. Certainly I'd be
happy to take a worker for a bit to speed it up, but I think it would
only speed it up by one or two turns, so it's probably not worth it
for you.

dsplasited to 3Some:

Also, I'm going to turn down tech trades I don't need yet, in order to
try to hide how closely we're working together.

Us to 3Some:

Yes, we won't be able to speed that up.

Thanks
for the info.
Are you guys maxed out on international trade routes already?

Us to 3Some:

Ok, good idea.
Request the techs you need, whenever you feel like it.

shadyforce to 3Some:

Daniel:

Did you build a city in the location to the west of your core with a pig, copper and a choice of 2 crabs? It's presence was betrayed by a workboat's goto route (weird little bug that reveals hidden information).

shadyforce to 3Some:

Also, is that deal of a galley for 2 skirmishers still on? Because I'm going to put a few turns into a gelley now if so.

dsplaisted to 3Some:

Yes, I settled on the pig/crab/copper site. It looks like my worker
boat may have to backtrack a bit. I haven't unfogged the northern
coast, and can't cross the ocean. Can you tell me if I do take the
northern coast on what turn I'd be able to get to the western crabs
(an use the boat on them)?

I'm still up for a Skirmisher/Galley trade, but I may need skirmishers
to defend the city I'm planning on founding near ruff. What turn
would you be ready for a trade?

shadyforce to 3Some:

Sorry, I'm slow getting back to you. It was 9 tiles to the crab site either way so north route and south route would have been the same.

I'll have the galley probably around T90 or so.

dsplaisted to 3Some:

I can probably have 2 skirmishers available for you in Isengard on
turn 92. So if your galley was 1NW of Isengard on that turn, you
could gift it to me, I could send it in your direction, and then
unload the Skirmishers in your territory and gift them to you a few
turns later. Of course if Ruff is moving to attack the Colossus city
then I'll probably need everything I can muster for defense.

I will finish Metal Casting in two turns (turn 83). What should I
research then? No one in the NUTA has a religion, so I'd like to get
Code of Laws. However, if the UTA is already going for it they could
probably beat me to it. Also, Calendar and Currency are important, do
we know who is planning to research those techs? I believe m_h/kodii
are going to research literature, what are you going to research
Shady? Perhaps you could go for Currency, I could go for CoL, and
Imhotep could go for Calendar.

As far as the Colossus plan goes, I will found a city 1NW of the rice
on turn 89. Since there is only one forest in the first ring, the
forge will need to be whipped. So the city will grow to size 2 on
turn 96. On that turn I will gift the city to m_h/kodii, who will
start a forge in there, and complete a chop on the forest with a
worker that I will also gift them. The next turn (t97), they will
whip the forge, and on turn 98 gift the city back to me. Does that
sound good?

I would be happy to build granaries for you guys in your new cities.
If you can have a chop ready to complete on the turn you found your
city, you can gift it to me that turn, I can complete the chop, and
the next turn I can gift the city back to you with a Granary in it.
This seems like it would be a good idea to me, essentially it lets you
share in my expansive trait. Note that when gifting cities, any
accumulated hammers and food get wiped out, so the optimum time to do
it is right after founding the city.

M_h/kodii: Since you guys aren't going for the hanging gardens, would
you be able to lend me Stone starting on turn 90 so I can build some
Moai Statues? I'd only need the stone for less than 10 turns to
finish the Statues.

Also FYI Ruff has a warrior heading through my territory towards Cream
of Tartar. The warrior is currently (as of turn 81) 4NW of Cream of
Tartar.

shadyforce to 3Some:

T92 should be fine but don't worry if you need them to keep Ruff off your back. I don't think I'll be attacked any time soon. Rego just sold me Maths for some spare change so I can chop out a bunch of stuff, which would be a strange move if he was planning an attack. ZPV is very quiet, he didn't reply to my last email a few turns ago. Is he quiet with you guys too, or just me?

Calendar is quite important for me. I'll shortly have a city with only banana for food and I have Dye and Sugar for happiness, so I'm worried about delaying it until Imhotep can get it and was considering going for it myself. Currency is probably more important for the combined teching of the NUTA as a whole, so I guess I'll go for that next. I accidentally invested about 6 beakers in it anyway. Is Literature really that important to grab now?

I'll consider the granary plan but I'm not sure. My 1st planned new city does not have a forest in the first ring. My 2nd planned new city could have a chop ready but it's quite far away from you, so you will take a maintenance hit. Not to mention both Rego and ZPV will see the city change hands in game and the whole world will see the cities change hands on civstats... which might betray our close cooperation.

Us to 3Some:

Yes it is. We want to get the GreatLibrary. We also have a decent chance to get a Great Scientist for an academy. The GreatLib alone will add 21bpt being in Representation.
We don't want the UTA to grab that boost.

[Kodii]

To Ruff:

Hi Borg,
we have noticed your worker drone on the roaded wine tile south of UM1.
We are curious about your intentions in that area.
Are you planning to put down another Unimatrix there and cutting off our Kobe colony from our core?
Or is this just one of your subspace routes to Broker?

We are planning to put our next city in that area, and are currently diverting substantial resources and assets to that project.
Obviously, we want to avoid conflict and misunderstandings, hence this message.

We are currently holding back ending turn and some unit movements.
Naturally we don't want to see our Kobe colony cut off from our core.
We are eagerly awaiting your reply.

From Ruff:

Greetings Species #1,

That drone is building part of a subspace conduit to Broker ... the
one I asked you to help me with. I am also sending some battle drones
down South (misclicked on 1 and sent him North with annoyed me).

Are you looking at planting a city / colony in that area? I
understand that you don't want Kobe cut off ... but to be honest, I've
always wondered about that city placement ... is it only for the
Marble? If it is only the Marble you are interested in, why don't you
give me the city and I will trade you the Marble.

To Ruff:

Hi,
sorry to have spammed you.
Yes the city was only for the marble.
It is a nice city though.
Improved marble, pastured cows, still plenty of forests to chop, riverside hills, lush green lands all around.

The idea to offer you that city has crossed our mind as well.
What kind of exchange did you have in mind?

Thanks for clarifying the issue.
We would like to avoid to get into a settler race with you for city spots.

Lets continue in the chat.

To Ruff:

Hi Borg,
when can we expect Polytheism? We can see you are still in 0% research mode

From Ruff:

Poly in 4

mh to me:

Had to accept Ruffs demand for Math.
With Poly from him, I think we have a good chance to get the Great Lib on T98/99.
No one as Aesthetics yet.
Will have to monitor the foreign tech screen closely.

[Kodii]

mh to Kodii:

Hi,
played the turn and left signs around for suggested next moves.
I put BH on an axeman. We need to get more units out.
Other options would be:
Granary, for faster growth to size 9
Forge, to shave off a turn from the GreatLib
Archer, to get an unit even quicker
(Settler, for Pink Dot).

Feel free to veto the axeman, as I am not strongly leaning towards it.
In 5 turn or 5 (after Aesthetics is done) we probably want to put one scientist back to work (grassland hill mine?) for better production.
Whatever we decide to build, needs to be finished/swapped to Great Lib when Literature comes in.

Btw. Krill has 9(!) cities. Playing thePAL opening it seems.

Kodii to mh:

Just a thought:

We could keep Kobe if we settled around Unimatrix 3 (towards Broker33 and around). We'd have one hell of a Banana/PAL front, but it's a possibility if we don't want to relinquish Kobe and the land north of it.

mh to Kodii:

Yes.
I don't want to give up Kobe willingly for cheap coins.
I am just reluctant to build up now, before that stretch of land is settled.
Better to keep Kobe on pumping settlers for now, me thinks. Do you agree?
We will finish the Granary after the settler to prevent hammer decay, I suggest.

mh to Kodii:

Hi Kodii,
what do you think about moving the warrior our of BH as well to protect workers on their way to the Iron & Forest?
I think the we demand protection penalty should not be more than -3 ?
If we wait for Aeneas to escort the settler to safety first, we delay the whole worker actions quite a bit.

I am not sure about it.
If you gets this before the turn ticks over, I will leave the decision to you.
If the turn is about to tick over before you wake up, I will leave the warrior in BH and review the worker plans.

mh to Kodii:

Hi Kodii,
I also took the liberty to move Beowulf, our warrior in Kobe SouthEast, to scout the land there, in preparation of the Kodii-Eastern-Settling-Scheme.
That leaves Kobe undefended. If Ruff comes after us, a single warrior is not enough anyway. And we can chop out/slave a archer there as well.

Kodii to mh:

Hi mh, I don't know how I missed the rest of these messages. Maybe we should move back to the RB forums? I logged in to start the turn and then flubbed up some of the worker movements. Obviously I'm not very good at reading instructions, and it didn't help that I missed these last two messages :/

I've left the turn unfinished so I don't screw anything else up. I am in the process of moving into a new place and should be up and reconnected in about six hours.

mh to Kodii:

Hi KOdii,
I am about to play the turn and noticed you just logged in.
Do you have any comments/suggestions/requests?

Kodii to mh:

Well other than the fact that I should leave the turn to you, especially if you're the one who planned it :P

Did you get my last e-mail about my flubbing up?

I am confident with any decision that you make and will try to catch up and offer my suggestions once I can sit down and think about the game. That will most likely be tonight (~9/10 hours from now)

[Kodii]

**This post contains several independent conversations**

From sunrise:

Hello Mostly_Harmless and Kodii,

Pleased to make your acquaintance. Also, nice work on the top score.

To sunrise:

Hello sunrise!

We are very happy to have reached you. Hopefully our distance will not hinder a fruitful relationship between our fine civilizations!

dsplaisted to 3Some:

Greetings m_h/kodii,

Do you think you guys will be able to lend me Stone starting on turn
90? This will let me finish my Moai statues quickly (in about 7 turns
I think).

To dsplaisted:

Hi,
yes, I think that's possible.
We will found our Moai City on T90 as well, but need to get a Workboat out first.
Btw. with Ruff snatching our city spots and the revelation of Iron, we had to review our dot map.
Moai city will be 1NE as initially planned.

dsplaisted to NUTA:

Several teams have expressed dissatisfaction with the way the game has
developed. I'd like to encourage people not to get discouraged,
either because of the way the game ended up with two "super-teams", or
because our team seems to be behind at the moment.

I don't think we can blame Sunrise & Co for coming up with the UTA.
We have to assume that each team is going to try to do what's best for
themselves. So if the UTA is a good idea we can't blame them for
taking that path, and if it is a bad idea then it gives us an
advantage. Going into this game I certainly didn't know how the
diplomatic landscape would shape up. If we end up playing another
game after this one, we will have a better idea, and if people don't
like the idea of two super-teams forming, then we can try to alter the
game setup and/or map to encourage a different style of play.

I also don't think we should be discouraged if the UTA seems to be
ahead of us. First of all, I don't think their lead is all that big.
They are ahead in the tech race, but most of their current lead comes
from the Oracle and I don't see them pulling much farther ahead. I've
got The Great Lighthouse and will build The Colossus, m_h/kodii have
the pyramids, and we have 6 people in our trading group to their 5.
So I think we will be able to tech faster than they will.

Secondly, we shouldn't let a bit of a challenge discourage us! Isn't
that one of the reasons we are playing in the first place?

Us to 3Some:

Hi guys,
just a little update on the situation on our side.

*Ruff & NUTA:*
We have recently been outraced to a nice city spot by Ruff, cutting off one of our cities from our core.
Ruff, says he wants to make the NUTA work, but I personally am annoyed by feeding fuelling his landgrab by gifting cheap techs.
All his new cities (3 so far) have been settled towards us. The 4th new city will go south of his capital.
The good things is, Daniel might have a good chance to land the Colossus city.
Hi have to clear that with Kodii first (he might have a totally different view on this), but I am very reluctant to trade Aesthetics for Poly.
How do you guys see that issue? I have no problem of trading slightly off balance techs with Imhotep and Krill, but Ruff is another matter.
He also is not going to attack Broker any time soon. His Praetorians sit in his cities and it is a long jog to Broker as it appears.

Krill seems to be off to a very good start. 9 cities so far!

*UTA:*
Depending on the ETA of Ruff's Polytheism, we might consider contacting sunrise for it.
We have a agreement with regoaarrar, that we do not complete the HG. He will bay 65gold for that.
regoarrar will have Currency on T87! (This is confidential of course).
So that will fuel a good part of our research towards Literature.

*Teching:*
We get Aesthetics on T91.
What are you guys currently researching and with what realistic ETA? (Currency & CoL, wasn't it?)

*Espionage:*
We can see Ruff (incl. tech), Broker, The Lins and you two guys. Currently working on regoarrar I think.
Should our Great Person turn out to be Spy, we will properly settle him for +12ept.

shadyforce to 3Some:

Teching and NUTA:

We have a serious problem. We need construction, currency and calendar asap. But we're only researching 2 of them. And by we I mean us 3 and Krill, who is the only other person in the NUTA that is actually capable of researching something in a reasonable time frame.

Whichever of those 3 I research, I'll probably have it on T97.

I doubt Krill would research anything other than construction unless he had a solid promise to get it off someone else, which given the Sunrise/Lins situation is understandable. Krill is also providing a bulb of Philosophy after CoL is researched, so he may be expanding but is at least pulling his weight tech wise.

I know CoL and Literature are nice but once the religion is gone or the GLib is spoken for, they are of dubious immediate benefit to the rest of us. Are you sure none of you guys want to research Calendar (or currency and I'll do calendar)?


Ruff and NUTA:

Hard to know what's going on with Ruff. Hopefully when Currency comes in he will do his part and contribute significant funds to the designated research people.

Broker is a fortress. He is building CG2 and Guerrilla 2 Longbowmen. The window of opportunity is long gone.

If he is dragging his feet and expanding at the expense of an economy then I'm not sure what we can do. Threaten to drop him from the trades? If he doesn't get Construction and the rest of us do, he would be in trouble if he stepped out of line. It would be great if we didn't need him but we're already falling further behidn the UTA.

Us to 3Some:

Hmm,
we are dragging Ruff and Imhotep with us at the moment (hope that will improve) and the UTA is ahead with Feudalism.
We do not want to throw them GreatLib.
Here is a plan (Kodii has to agree first, of course):
We keep on teching Aesthetics and stop with only a handful beakers needed (ideally close to one).
We then switch to Currency on T92. By that time regoarrar will have researched Currency already and maybe traded it around a bit within the UTA.
That will give us a decent discount.
Currency can be done by ~T101 I think.
All the time we have to monitor our opponents closely for an sign of them researching Aesthetics.
The moment that happens, the Currency plan is off, and we go back full speed on completing Aesthetics with a massive overflow into Literature and try to grab the GreatLib.
This plan is somewhat risky, because it is assuming we can out-tech and out-build our rival in the race for the Great Lib.

Our current plan can have the GreatLib on T98/99. I prefer the safe option.

Alternatively, Daniel and Brian go for Currency & Calendar. This will probably lose us the religion at CoL but we can get a huge discount on researching CoL after that (with Currency and with CoL traded around in the UTA).
And we gamble on Krill using the GreatScientist to grab Taoism.

shadyforce to 3Some:

We need Currency more than we need Calendar so if you're going to do that, then let me still research Currency and you can try and grab Calendar unless someone else does Aesthetics. Calender has less prerequisites boni but is also cheaper should take about as long.

I'm already going to get the full benefit of the Currency ownership because my science is off until both my libraries are done, which is the turn after rego gets Currency and presumably trades it around.

Maybe Calendar isn't as important... I suppose we could just cottage for commerce and expand horizontally in lieu of happy cap increase.

dsplaisted to 3Some:

I think we can delay Calendar a bit. I know I certainly need to
settle a ton more cities- Krill/Memphus have more than twice the
number any of us do, I think.

My ETA for CoL is turn 94 or 95.

shadyforce to 3Some:

I will probably have Currency on T94 and I reckon I could do Calendar after that in about 7 or 8 turns (with some funding). So I could just research one after the other but can we afford to wait that long for Calendar?

dsplaisted to 3Some:

I should have CoL on the same turn, so we can probably just figure out
which of us researches faster at 100% and then fund that person to
research Calendar ASAP.

shadyforce to 3Some:

Hi guys,

Email from rego:

------------
Hi Brian,

I see (I think?) that you have turned on research. I know that we talked about a Currency / Calendar deal but never really firmed anything up. Did you decide to research Calendar anyways (i.e. is the possibility still open?) or without hearing from me, did you decide something else made more sense?

dan.
regoarrarr
India
--------------

Not exactly sure how to respond. It seems that no one in the UTA is doing Calendar? Which probably means that since ZPV just got Compass and Rego Currency, that the other 3 are probably working on Construction, Code of Laws, Aesthetics->Literature? There might be someone on Metal Casting too.

[Kodii]

From regoarrarr:

Hey M-H.

I know that we talked about a wonder agreement earlier. I understand that it can be challenging to figure out information from other people while still keeping your own interests going forward. You of all people as the C&D master should know all about that!

So, in thinking about things, I am going to just lay all my cards out on the table. Hopefully we can use that as a starting point to have a good dialogue about what we can and can't do.

I am going to make a run at the Hanging Gardens. You will have noticed that I have Mathematics. I've actually had it for a few turns but it just showed up this past turn when I was able to trade for Alphabet. I have already started on my aqueduct. I have a high production city (plains hill copper + a few mines) with forests available to chop. I think I will be competitive in this race. You can ask shadyforce or Imhotep who have enough EP to see my demographics - I am #2 I believe in overall production.

However, even with my head-start, you may be able to beat me since you are Industrious and maybe even have stone (given your build of both TGW and the Mids). Certainly if you go all out to the detriment of the rest of your empire, you may be successful. I suppose it's a matter of how much you want it. Obviously at some point you will be getting a GP who may be an engineer, and so that might be in play as well, depending on timing.

Obviously I don't know what your overall game plan is / has been. Maybe this has been a huge part of your strategy and you will fight to the death for it. Or maybe you have had no interest in it, so you'll pretend that you did and are making a huge sacrifice and try to squeeze me for as much as possible :-). But probably it's somewhere in between.

So I see 3 major possibilities.

A) We agree that I will not go after the HG. As you pointed out in your earlier email, this doesn't necessarily give you too much, since there are 9 other civs after all. However, I do think that I might be able to get no-build agreements from the civs that I traded Math too, and the other civs don't have Math, so with Industrious you shouldn't have a problem.

B) We agree that you will not go after the HG. I pay you in some way. This could be techs, money (I'll have Currency before too long), or something else. Again, there are other civs out there, but I do have a head-start

C) We can't agree on anything and we race. I'd prefer to avoid this, but if it comes to it, it does.

I am very interested to hear your thoughts. As I said, my aqueduct is already in production, so if you're wanting me to agree to not go after it, the sooner the better. I'll be much less likely to agree to not build it if my aqueduct gets very far along, if that makes sense.

Hope to hear from you soon!

To regoarrarr:

Hi regoarrarr,

the HG have been a part of our overall strategy. It is not a showstopper
if don't get it but also it is not just a "denial"-project either.
So, while nice to have it, especially timing it nicely with founding
cities and in conjunction with the Pyramids, we would not fight to the
death for it.
- Hide quoted text -

You have have indeed a headstart on Maths/Aqueduct and we believe your
words regarding your production capacities.
We can see you swapped to OrgRel as well, presumably gaining another
production bonus.
You might even have easy access to Stone. If not from your own source,
then certainly from your close buddies.

Still, we believe we can race you to the HGs and have a fair chance to
get it as well. You being #2 in overall production is pretty good, but
after all it has to be built in only one city, and we have a suitable
candidate.
In the end it might come down to how many chops and population we and
you are prepared to sacrifice in this race to win it.
And here, your proposal to negotiate for this particular wonder makes
good sense.

We therefore are interested in your Option B. We would accept a payment
of cash upon your discovery of Currency.
In return we do not race you for the HG. (As an outlying scenario we
would reserve the right to still start it to a) get some refund cash and
b) have a chance to get it in case you decide to abandon the
construction for any reasons.)
Also, if any other civ beats you to it, our agreement still stands.

Now the question is:
How much cash do we agree on?
There are certain things one could attach a number to, like gained
whipable population by the HG.
Of course we can spend hammers not going to the HG on other builds, etc.
We have a number in mind, but would like to give you a chance to read
our reply and decide whether to agree to Option B in the first place.

From regoarrarr:

Okay that sounds good. I am (naturally) pleased to hear that. I look forward to what kind of price you have in mind.

To regoarrarr:

Hi regoarrarr,
Our price would be 80g.
This is open to negotiation, but only to some extent, as time is of essence.
Payment terms could be something like 50% upfront & the other 50% in 10 instalments for example.

From regoarrarr:

Okay. I am glad to see that we are at least in the same ballpark. My thoughts for a decent price were 50g.

Would you be interested in a tech trade? I could give you a discount on Math, and, assuming you agree to the no HG build, front it and wait for my payment post currency.

To regoarrarr:

Hi,
so do we meet in middle?
65g?

We have trade aligned for Math already, but thanks.
Maybe we can work something out for Currency?

From regoarrarr:

Sounds good. I can pay you 35g the turn I discover Currency and 30g within 15 turns after that.

Does that work?

To regoarrarr:

Agreed.
When is ETA for Currency, so we can plan our cashflow?

From regoarrarr:

T87. Would you do me a favor and make a post in your thread, estimating when you think you could have gotten the Gardens, just so after the game I can see how close it may or may not have been. I will do something similar

From regoarrarr:

Hi,

I saw your request for 2 gpt. It was my intention with the below to pay you the full 30g as a lump sum within 15 turns, rather than doing it as a per turn deal that I will undoubtedly forget to cancel.

But I can understand how you might have viewed it the other way, especially after I chose such evenly divisible numbers!! Hopefully this will work out okay for you.

To regoarrarr:

Hi,
just read your email now, after making another request for gpt in-game.

Hmm, we indeed thought we would get a 15turn long 2gpt deal from you.
Here is why:

Our proposal:

"Payment terms could be something like 50% upfront & the other 50% in 10 instalments for example."

Your reply:

"I can pay you 35g the turn I discover Currency and 30g within 15 turns after that. "

I don't think you would forget to cancel such a deal.
I hope you were not thinking, we would quietly let the gpt deal continue beyond the 15turns, if you forgot to cancel?

Or do you not want the deal become public knowledge (as it would with a gpt deal)?

Your proposal could mean 30gold as late as T102.
We have planned our economics around this deal, so that would throw said plans.
I suggest we compromise on something like 10g T90, 10g T95, 10g T100

From regoarrarr:

I agree to your compromise - 10g T90, 10g T95 and 10g T100. And I don't think that you would intentionally let the deal continue but it might slip either of our notices. I know I do that all the time when AIs demand resources for me. You may be right that I would pay better attention in this game but I think your compromise is nice.

**For when the threads open**

Dear regoarrarr,

You requested an ETA of when we could have finished the HG.

In all honesty, we don't have one because we were never completely interested in it