RB Pitboss #1 [SPOILERS] - Louis XIV of Byzantium

[Kodii]

Krill to NUTA:

Hi guys,

Just trying to remember what everyone else wanted to research as the next set of techs, and floating a possible tech idea (which I think has been mooted before).

I'd like to research Construction next, and have an eta before t100, but we also have other important techs, such as Currency, Calendar and CoL to research. Would some people be willing to research Currency first, and then feed gold to the fastest or most efficient researcher so that we can get techs asap, one after another, instead of all techs slower, but around the same time? I know I would. We'd need to agree to share all techs evenly between ourselves for this to work, but it does maximise our usage of each tech, ie getting plantations up for more happiness first, then CoL for courthouses afterwards etc.

I think Shadyforce has said he can get currency before t100 quite easily, which would mean we could start fast research to catch up with the UTA within 15 turns.

So, what are everyones thoughts?

Ruff to NUTA:

I have started on poly - have it in 4 turns.

shadyforce to NUTA:

First of all, I'm probably going to go for currency and expect on T96/97. I haven't switched on research yet and when I do, it's 8/9 turns at 100%.

Secondly...

It's not going well so far. We're down Feudalism and Monarchy. And we're about 10 turns behind the UTA for several different techs, including the likes of currency, construction, calendar and maybe CoL as well. And we're losing ground.

Everything indicates that the UTA have 5 good researchers so while we have the numbers, we don't have their combined research ability right now. Since we're obviously not prepared to do any fighting and slow them down militarily, we need to improve our economies and try and catch up. That means all of us. Even the guys who will be providing the money rather than doing the research can't just sit back and give whatever they happen to have lying around while land-grabbing happily without concern for commerce. The 2-4 designated researchers have to match the 5 UTA members for pace, which means lots of money needs to come their way.

I completely agree with Imhotep that the way the game has developed is extremely stupid. In my opinion, it would have been a lot more interesting if tech trading had been switched off (I was out-voted), it would have been a better FFA, rather than a defacto 5v5 with added potential mistrust.

But the game is what it is and we just have to take our frustration out on the UTA five who have turned it into this mess. I don't know about you guys but I don't particularly fancy a boring team tech race until someone launches the space ship. I want to "remove their ability to race". But we've missed the early rush window (we didn't know) and we missed the pre-construction window (we chickened out) and now we're now behind in military technology.

And hey, I'm as guilty as anyone. Maybe I could have arranged a rush on rego with Imhotep's help or something but I got scared that I wouldn't have a big enough stack to do much damage. But I don't get how me and Krill seem to be the only ones with any semblence of a border with them. I don't know what the other part of the landmass is like, but if there are vast grasslands seperating you guys from Kalin and Broker, maybe we should be settling aggresively in that direction to provide a platform to invade from later?

The fact is, we need to make a plan for the future. Plodding along is not going to do much in the long run. We need a plan to focus on. Now I'm no civ expert or veteran or ladder player. So you guys tell me: if you are playing a large 5 or 6 a side multiplayer game where one team are technologically ahead, how do you beat them?

In my newbie opinion, there are two reasonable ways:

1. Research the essential near term economic technologies and then beeline the next significant military technology. Maybe that's Guilds (although they are already a tech and a half ahead of us there) or maybe Rifling. then build a monster army and double/treble team and deal a critical blow to 2 or 3 of the UTA members.
2. Amphibious surprise attack. While it's hard this early because galleys are expensive, it should become more viable as we progress up the tech tree since we'll be loading more expensive units per boat. ZPV is particularly vulnerable to an amphibious assault, Lins also has a viable water route into a back line city and Broker told me his south coast is vulnerable to invasion as well (although not in as many words).

Maybe this was not meant to be like a typical multiplayer game but they seem to have turned it into one with their 5-way alliance and all I know, from hearing about what goes on in these team multiplayer games, is that you don't tech to space... you build and army and you hit the other team at their weakpoints.

Krill to NUTA:

I suppose this won't actually come as a suprise to anyone, but I agree with Shadyforce. We do need a complete strategy to deal with the UTA in its an entirety, taking it apart into peices if we have to, instead of hoping it'll fall apart naturally. I'm very willing to go in and attack Kalin, but that is just one player. We need to go and force regoarrarr and ZPV to stop teching, force them to slave out units to defend with. One problem with going the tech route though is that it allows them to stack up and hit whichever one of us they want. Standard MP tactics, they can focus everyones' armies into one spot. I'd suggest we be the first ones to use it though, by hitting regoarrarr or ZPV.

Us to NUTA:

What is the feasibility of a couple of us dedicating completely on military (my initial thoughts say Ruff & Imhotep) to create some mischief with the UTA? That way they can save up cash and leave the researching to the rest of us?

Ruff to NUTA:

Attacking someone is a possiblity, but, IIRC, ZPV is miles away from me. I could send over 5-ish Preats (down thru mh land and then thru Dsp's land) and it that battle army could pick up some support (cats? / Phants) then we (as a team) could really have some fun with it. To be honest, it would take at least 10 turns (prob more like 15) to get my units there.

dsplaisted to NUTA:

I'm not directly connected to ZPV... there is water between us. You
would need to go through shadyforce's land to get to ZPV.

ZPV's capital is somewhat vulnerable to an over-water attack from me.
Perhaps you could launch a land-based attack and I could launch a
surprise attack on his capital around the same time? I don't think I
can actually do an amphibious assault on the capital with Galleys, but
I think I can drop unload attackers next to it with no warning, which
means he'd only have 1 turn to whip more defenders. Still, this would
probably need at least 3 galleys full of units to work, so I don't
think it can happen too soon.

shadyforce to NUTA:

Regoarrarr is much more vulnerable to a NUTA assault. He is just to the north west of my cities. Out culture is just about touching at this stage. If you send your drones to my land, my road network will bring you right up to India's borders. Also, Imhotep is not to far to Rego's north-east and could invade his north so Rego would be in a two front war. I could probably provide some units or at the very least cut off any assistance from Carthage, without compromising my research on the next tech.

So if you send those 5 praets and whatever axes/spears you can spare and you can probably build a few HAs that will have time to catch up with the melee. If you did this, when could you attack him?

Ruff to NUTA:

I've looked at the map, and the closest target (UTA only <grin>) to me is Broker. The only downside here is that if I managed to take / destroy his cities, it would just release a bunch of land to ZPV (unless mh/Kodii were going to go down and grab it).

Another option is Regoarrarr. From my view, it looks like he shares land with Shady. My concern here is that if we remove him, it might just free up land for Sunrise. Do Rego and Sunrise share land or are they separated by water?

Maybe Rego will make the better target. I can send some Preats, pick up some Imps from Imhotep and then some Immortals from Shady. Maybe Dsp can throw in some Skirms and we can have a tonne of fun with those units. Krill could throw in some workers to provide road transportation.

Krill to NUTA:

sunrise is already crippled. I think I can do the same to Kalin, maybe even kill him, insrtead of sending units 30 turns around the world to attack regoarrarr, which means that if we take out regoarrar as well, we could just roll straight through sunrise from 2 directions and that's the UTA finished. And bobs your uncle.

shadyforce to NUTA:

Sunrise and Rego are seperated by water. ZPV is nearby and may try and stake a claim to the territory but cutting him off won't be hard because geography is in my favour.
How long will it take to get your army over here? We should set an attack turn so that me and Imhotep (assuming he's on board) and whoever else can contribute some units, can have our units built and in place.

BTW, that declaring war double move ruling was never properly sorted. Perhaps someone should bring it up again and try and get a decision, preferably someone not on the border of the dude we are about to attack.

Krill to NUTA:

There is a land bridge just to the north west of regoarrarrs capital that can be used to gain access to the, well, continent, that Kalin and sunrise are on. I know it is by no means critical, but it's a thought for the future.

shadyforce to NUTA:

Well... Ruff? Imhotep? Are we going through with the Regoarrarr invasion or not? We really need to declaring around T99 if not earlier. Every turn that passes is a turn's less preparation. So please make a decision and let me know so I can decide whether to start building settlers or barracks.

Ruff to NUTA:

I'm not opposed to declaring on Rego or ZPV, just that they are both a long way away from me and I haven't seen any comments from Imhotep.

Ruff to NUTA:

I'm in-game at the moment. Selecting a Preat and using the 'goto' command shows me that it will take 27 turns to reach Rego's city (the one with the spice). On the other hand, I can get to Brokers capital in 19. The route to Rego might be quicker if there are roads there (it has been a while since I mapped). I don't expect their to be any roads to Broker.

Ruff to NUTA:

Another Ruff message ...

I've been chatting with Krill and he suggested that I go further North through Imhotep's land and attack Rego from there - that is in fog for me and I am thus not sure if there is a land connection there.

As I said - I am happy to do this but what can the other NUTA guys throw in ... if I divert one of my workers to roading to the attack, can mh / kodii gift me a worker? I'll return it when my military road crew returns home.

Imhotep to NUTA:

I can throw some Impis, a stack up to 15 might be possible in 6 or 7 turns. Just tell me if I should do so. regoarrarr is quite far away from me though, I guess we might be quicker if we come from the south through shady's land. From me there are about 20 tiles between my border and regoarrar's - and a slow stack without roads needs a lot of turns to come there (well, basically up to 30). Problem down south is that there are a lot of scouts running around there, so we have to be extra careful there - or it might not work at all. Of course we could also fake an attack on shadyforce with that, I don't know...

Imhotep

P.S.: I meant to write a much longer answer, but i find the game has lost its charm for me. Still I will try my best of course, but I can't help feeling disappointed.

Us to NUTA:

@ Imhotep: Please try to find a substitute before you totally give up on the game.

Ruff to NUTA:

Oh - and I've pushed straight onto monotheism.

Imhotep to NUTA:

Monarchy is in. I’ve traded it around to you and set research to Calendar (20 turns) for now.

shadyforce to NUTA:

Probably best to save money for now, Imhotep. I can probably get Calendar after Currency on T101/102 if funded to research at 100% and maybe one of the other guys can get it even quicker? Also Ruff, what's your ETA on Monotheism? Would it be better for you to save money also? Krill also expressed a preference for saving money rather than researching once construction is done. I would suggest that dsp and MH/Kodii be dedicated to reserching and I can be a third depending on whether I need to be building military.

So since the distances are probably too great to do rush, we might as well plan something bigger a little later on. We need cats, we need to be close enough to military tech parity and we need overwhelming numbers.

So here is a suggestion:

- Ruff and Imhotep start building road networks and massive armies now and start marching what you have over to me and/or Krill. Praets are great since they are almost maces already. Imhotep should probably focus on Impis and Horse Archers?
- Once the current round of techs are done, myself, dsp and MH/Kodii will research Civil Service, Feudalism and Machinery at 100%, funded by the other three. These will be done somewhere in the T115-120 timeframe.
- Once construction is in, myself and/or Krill will start building some cats.
- Once CS and Machinery are in, we can build some maces too and whatever money we have in our combined coffers can do some upgrading as well.
- Then somewhere around the T125 mark, we attack with what should surely be overwhelming numbers and deal serious damage to, or hopefully kill, Rego and/or the Lins.

We can do the Rego invasion, the Lins invasion or both simultaniously depending on how we feel. Also, last I checked, the UTA don't have Metal Casting yet so while they have longbows, they can't easily get to Crossbows, maces and knights and we might just be able to exploit that window.

What do you guys think?

Ruff to NUTA:

Mono is 6 turns IIRC. I have enough $ to burn through that.

Us to NUTA:

Hi NUTA members,

as you know, we have now acquired Aesthetics.
We have seen a couple of requests to gift it away.
We have turned down those requests for good reasons.
Every civ knowing Aesthetics will give our presumed UTA competitor an research bonus.
And we are paranoid enough (SANCTA members! ) to play this as safe as possible.
Also their is no immediate advantage to knowing Aesthetics for military purpose.
Once we have secured Literature and the Great Library, we will lift this restriction of course.

Feel free to suggest what our next tech should be.

@Ruff: We are currently not in a position to gift you a worker. We have tied up all our workers with important actions. Team Kodii/mh will pull its weight within the UTA with superior research.

Krill to NUTA:

I have no need of aesthetics at the moment, so a written promise to trade it on the completion of the GL is perfectly acceptable to me. I would suggest someone research music afterwards though...And I'm sure you all know why

Krill

PS. Construction due t97

shadyforce to NUTA:

Wonders shmonders. I'll take construction though.

[Kodii]

**This post contains several independent conversations**

dsplaisted to 3Some:

M_h/kodii,

Wolf 359 will grow to size 2 on turn 96. I am planning to gift it to
you that turn. You can start a Forge in it that turn, and finish a
chop with a worker I will gift you. Then on turn 97 you will be able
to whip it, and gift it back to me on turn 98.

I will also be founding a new city on turn 97. I plan to have 2
forests pre-chopped with workers on them that turn, so I would also
like to gift you that city for one turn so you can build a forge in
it. I am willing to repay you whatever gold is needed to balance out
the maintenance costs you pay for these cities, but I don't think it
will be much at all because by then we should have Currency which
means you'll get 4 commerce from trade routes in each one, and you'll
be able to work the coast for an additional 2 commerce.

Are you guys OK with all of this? I'll finish CoL this turn, and I'm
not sure if you want to switch to Caste System but you would have to
wait until turn 98 to do so because you'll need to whip the forge in
Wolf 359.

Also, I think it would be advantageous for you (and shady) to let me
build granaries in your new cities in the same way. Setting it up to
do this is a lot easier than for forges because it only needs 1 forest
chop.

To Ruff:

Hi Ruff,
any comments on your troops near our borders?
Seems to us like you have given up on your crusade plans against the UTA and come after us.

mh to Kodii:

Hi Kodii,
I can take care of things until 31st ~10am (GMT [ST] +1)

I will write up a summary then as well.
You will notice that we don't have the GreatLib yet.

[Kodii]

**And the action begins...**

Us to 3Some:

Hi allies,
good news. We got our Great Scientist and built ourselves an academy.
Daniel - any updates on the Colossus plan? We are currently tightly juggling our economy to get to Literature asap. So let us know what the current plan is. Another city will put a lot of strain on our coffers.
Brian - what's up with the ept spending towards us? Just asking whether this is deliberate.

Imhotep has started on Calendar with an ETA of 20turns.
We believe that we can easily get it by T104 after Literature. Probably earlier if Imho were to supply us with cash.
I want to bring this up with you guys, before addressing the wider NUTA.
Similarly we will not gift Ruff one of our workers right now, as he requested.
We want to pull our weight in the NUTA, but we feel this is better done via research.
Gifting a worker to Ruff, right now will just help him in the landgrabbing against us.

shadyforce to 3Some:

I can probably get Calendar by T102 at the latest if funded to research at 100% so we should tell Imhotep to save money for now.

You should not give Ruff a worker. We're doing the researching for the alliance, he should pull his weight with the units and stuff. Not sure how exactly to say it to him though.

I can't see the game right now but I recently rejigged my EP spending because I can see a whole lot of people's demogs (including all of the UTA I think). So I must have just spread my spending between the people I had nothing on without really thinking much about it. I'll change it towards seeing someone's current research I guess, though probably not rego in case he sees an invasion coming!

BTW, can person A see person B's EP spending towards person C?

Also, do the NUTA know you're going afterb the GLib? I was going to post a summary of every's research targets.

Us to 3Some:

Hi,
nobody knows for sure we are going after Aesthetics.
Once this is known, of course people will have no doubt, us being Industrious.

Yes, you can see the espionage spendings by looking at the foreign relation screen.
have a look here for doing this the hardcore way:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.ph...735&page=2

dsplaisted to 3Some:

As for the Colossus plan: I just settled the city last turn (T89). I
named it Wolf 359 . It will grow to size 2 on turn 96, and I plan
to gift it to you guys on that turn. You guys should be able to
finish a chop and whip it on turn 97, and give it back to me with a
Forge on turn 98. Does this sound OK?

I should have CoL on turn 94, although if someone could lend me 20
gold or so I could get it on turn 93.

Us to 3Some:

Sounds good, although Wolf359 is where the Borg had an overwhelming victory!!!
Also does Ruff actually know where this city is? He might now suspect it is nearby.

T96 sounds ok, as we plan to be done with our critical GreatLib plan by then.

dsplaisted to 3Some:

Yeah I know it was the site of a Borg victory. I still thought it was
a fun city name. I don't think he knows where it is yet, but he did
notice the name. I had this chat with him this morning:

ruff_hi: hi
ruff_hi: Wolf 359??? - that looks ominous
dsplaisted: hehe
dsplaisted: for me or for you?
ruff_hi: you
ruff_hi: borg victory
ruff_hi: what is the name of your capital?
ruff_hi: someone has a capital called 'Sullla'
dsplaisted: yeah that's me
ruff_hi: ha - very funny
ruff_hi: where does ChironBetaPrime come from?
dsplaisted: It's a song by Jonathan Coulton
ruff_hi: ok - that doesn't help me
dsplaisted: no, but you can search for it and listen to it
dsplaisted: he puts his songs online
ruff_hi: what are you teching at the moment?
ruff_hi: or saving $?
dsplaisted: "Merry Christmas, from Chiron Beta Prime, where we're
working in a mine, for our robot overlords, (did I say overlords, I
meant protectors)"
dsplaisted: Teching Code of Laws
ruff_hi: sounds a little like a planet from Dune
ruff_hi: timing?
dsplaisted: due on t94 I hope
ruff_hi: ok
ruff_hi: mono due then too
dsplaisted: sweet, I can probably do a double-revolt to
Monarchy/Organized religion
ruff_hi: if only we had a religion
dsplaisted: well I'm hoping we will on t94
ruff_hi: oh - duh
dsplaisted: yeah no guarantees though
ruff_hi: nope
ruff_hi: but good luck on that
dsplaisted: thanks
dsplaisted: yeah no guarantees though
ruff_hi: nope
ruff_hi: but good luck on that
dsplaisted: thanks

shadyforce to 3Some:

Funnily enough, when I heard of ChironBetaPrime earlier in the game, I thought to myself that it sounds like the name of a planet you would find in the Star Trek universe, one that the Borg might pay a visit to, perhaps.

shadyforce to 3Some:

Hi Daniel,

Are you still good for that Galley-Skirmisher trade?

dsplaisted to 3Some:

I have one skirmisher available for you in Isengard at the moment. It
will probably be t97 or so before I have another one for you. But if
you can send the galley over I can go ahead and give you the first
one.

shadyforce to 3Some:

Do you need the Galley right away? (If not, I can wait a few turns to finish the worker before whipping the Galley)

dsplaisted to 3Some:

I don't need it right away. However, Leptis is currently undefended.
So getting the galley earlier might give me a chance to raze/capture
it. Of course I doubt it will remain undefended for too long.

shadyforce to 3Some:

Interesting.

Unfortunately I can't see the map at work. Remind me, is Leptis that Carthage city just north-west of albuquerque? Magellan's Folly, my exploring workboat, is returning after a long pointless voyage. He's currently passing by one of ZPV's back cities (defended by a single warrior).

Here are some options:

1. I delay the Galley to finish my worker, then whip the Galley, deliver him, take the Skirmisher off you and the other one whenever he is ready. Maybe we try and raze something later.
2. I whip the workboat immediately when I get home from work. On the next turn I send him to Isengard (on his first turn I can't get to the city but I think he will be next to the hill). Can you have a dude or two on that hill ready to load? Sail to Leptis and try to raze it.
3. We coordinate and try for a bigger prize, the razing of Carthage, perhaps using intelligence gathered by Magellan's Folly as he sails by. (Is this feasable?)

1 is chicken and 2 is easy but it means he won't fall for any more sneak boat attacks. 3 is tough but the prize is huge. What do you think?

dsplaisted to 3Some:

I like the idea of going for Carthage. Do you know what turn your
workboat will have visibility on it?

I'm not sure a single galley will be enough to take Carthage, but I
might be able to build another one in Albuquerque if it looks like we
have a chance.

shadyforce to 3Some:

I will have visibility on Carthage the turn after next (T94).

Carthage is in a horrible spot for us. We have to sail through Carthaginian culture to get to a spot we can invade amphibiously from. We could take out chances landing units next to Carthage but that means attacking onto a hill accross a river.

(Seriously, did everyone in the game start on a plains hill except me?! Grrr...)

Us to 3Some:

We did not start on one.

Anyway, how is landing troops and attacking across a river up a hill different from attacking amphibious (same penalty) up a hill.
Well, apart from the fact that you give them one more turn preparation time.

Would you mind sending us a screenshot of the area in questions? Or is that out before Paper?

dsplaisted to 3Some:

We can't trade screenshots before paper.

Shady, I think it's probably best just to build the worker first right
now. We don't even need to attack Leptin amphibiously. Do you have a
unit or two you can send that way? Do you know if Ruff does? (He did
a while ago when he attacked some workers, right?)

Us to 3Some:

Ok.
One galley with two units does not sound enough to attack a city.
How many turn do you need to sail through his waters after DoWing?

Ruff captured those workers with a scouting warrior, iirc.

Do you guys have any special desires for our next tech (after Literature)?
We have a few in mind but would like to have input from our allies.

shadyforce to 3Some:

Hehe... too late, I whipped the Galley, but the worker was going to be completed in 2 turns whether I was on size 1 or 2 so it's no big deal.

I have an Immortal that can get there in a couple of turns.

Us to 3Some:

As we have not much knowledge of the layout of your lands, is there another UTA member nearby that could cause you trouble? Scouting warriors?
I think a defensive pact was part of the UTA agreement.

shadyforce to 3Some:

Leptin? I'm not sure... can probably be attacked on the turn of DoW from the sea. Carthage probably needs a turn in the water before amphibious attack. I'm not sure if unloading nearby... I think the unload could be done on the turn of DoW and the attack next turn. Though that will never work with fewer than 4 units since Carthage is on size 9 and can easily whip any choice of defender. Though making him double or triple whip a longbow is probably a small victory.

No scouting warriors near me but I have cover anyway. Rego could cause me trouble if he commits units. Why do you think a defensive pact was part of the UTA? Lins did not declare war on Krill after he nicked Sunrise's worker and neither did anyone declare on Ruff after he nicked ZPV's workers.

shadyforce to 3Some:

Regarding next tech, if we are planning the big attack I mentioned in the last email, then we need to go for Machinery, Feudalism and Civil Service.

How soon will you have Literature and if you were doing Calendar after that, how quickly would you have it?

Us to 3Some:

Literature will be in on T94.
Although we will get another 20 gold cash infusion from regoarrar, we will have to save up money for a couple of turns, I think before tackling the next tech.
With academy and GreatLib at our capital we will be able to tech pretty fast.

Ok, I will address the NUTA regarding the tech plan.

dsplaisted to 3Some:

Shady and I chatted in the chatroom and he's worried that Imhotep and
Ruff might split off from the NUTA and try to attack you (or someone
else). You can check the chatroom out for the chat log.

Also, in tech news I will finish Code of Laws this turn, so I have at
least coinflip odds of getting a religion. The Lins finished
Calendar, and I asked if they would be interested in trading Calendar
for Metal casting. Here's the chat we had:

Kalin: hi
dsplaisted: Greetings
dsplaisted: Would you be interested in trading calendar for Metal Casting?
Kalin: I would but I need to think a bit about it and talk to Dreylin
dsplaisted: no problem
dsplaisted: I would want a no-build clause on the Colossus too
Kalin: I can understand that of course
Kalin: we would also ask for something similar for MoM
dsplaisted: Makes sense
dsplaisted: Well let me know what you decide
Kalin: can I ask you what are you researching now?
Kalin: sure will let you know asap
dsplaisted: I'm researching Code of Laws
Kalin: I am not sure what to pick next
Kalin: ok, nice talking to you
Kalin: laters
dsplaisted: cya

Calendar would certainly be nice for me, but someone would still need
to research it for the NUTA. If necessary I'd be willing to fund the
research with some cash if we thought that was best.

shadyforce to 3Some:

It was Krill who told me his concern about Ruff when I was chatting to him earlier. Apparentely Ruff explicitly told him he wanted to attack MH/Kodii and Krill (I'm not sure if 'wanted to' = 'intends to') and gets the general vibe that Ruff is just as fed up with the state of the game as Imhotep. Now whether Ruff will actually abandon the UTA or not is unsure but it's worth keeping a close eye on him. Of course, Krill probably doesn't realise that you've probably been watching him like a paranoid hawk since he researched Iron Working ages ago.

I'll have Currency next turn. I can get Calendar in 6 or 7 further turns depending on how fast I want to research as long as I'm funded for 100% research. I'd say 50-60 gold would be enough. I suppose you could trade MC for Calendar but is having Calendar now rather than in 7/8 turns worth giving MC to the UTA? Especially the Lins who Krill is planning an invasion of.

My Immortal will be in position to attack where I assume Leptin is in 5 turns. There are too many forests in the way slowing me down and blocking viable attack routes. Unfortunately, he'll also see me marching to the attack spot so he may add an archer just in case.

dsplaisted to 3Some:

I wouldn't be giving MC to the whole UTA, just one member (although
I'd be willing to trade it to one or at most two more). The thing is,
I don't think Metal Casting is all that valuable. Forges cost 120
hammers for non-industrious civs, which means that you have to
produce 480 raw hammers in the city you build a forge after the forge
is built before it has paid for itself. That's a pretty long term
investment, and if the Lins want to build forges instead of barracks
and units, it will be all the easier for Krill to walk over them.

And by trading Metal Casting to just part of the UTA, it weakens their
alliance if they aren't working together closely and are trading techs
on a quid pro quo basis. ZPV is likely to research Metal Casting, but
if the Lins already have it they may choose not to give him Calendar
(or whatever they research next) since he won't have anything to offer
them. Of course ZPV may have enough research power that it won't
matter, but it can't hurt to set things up so that it's a possibility.

Leptin is 4 west and 2 north of Albuqueque. The nice thing about it
is I can see inside the city so I'll be able to let you know what the
defenses are.

dsplaisted to 3Some:

Leptis will get it's border expansion on turn 97 I think, which would
be before your Immortal can get there. If you can get it to the tile
2NW of Leptis, it looks like the tile 1NW of Leptis is unforested
flatland, so you would be able to declare war and attack the city the
same turn.

Us to 3Some:

Aw, that sucks.
Will have a closer look later.

@ Kodii: Don't end turn.

Us to 3Some:

Hi,
thanks for the heads up regarding Ruff.
He has moved Praetorians and Warriors into position to attack us. Already next turn he could DoW us.
As our borders are quite close and even overlapping in some areas, we were not aware of his movements a few turns ago.
In case of hostilities, we are to lose our access to Marble and we will have to delay our connection of Horses.
We put our rush to Literature and GreatLib on hold and went to full mobilisation mode.

I am currently not quite sure the colossus city swap is a feasible. Any Borgs nearby?
Also, will you be able to provide us with Horses and Marble (not sure you have any sources hooked up) upon request?
Is there any way you can divert military our way that was intended for your ZPV strike?

Sorry, if this all sounds rushed and desperate, but I just woke up and will be away for the next 12hours.

dsplaisted to 3Some:

I have a warrior in Unimatrix 1 at the moment. It looks like you have
visibility into it too, but there aren't any troops in it. Has he
moved troops into position to attack in other places besides east of
Unimatrix 1? I'm not sure if he's going to attack you or not.

Next turn I will move the warrior west along his road network so I
should be able to provide some warning of where his troops are going.

Do you know how many Praetorians he has total, and for that matter
what Imhotep's forces look like?

I have 3 Skirmishers and an Axe on defense at Wolf 359 currently. I
don't see any of Ruff's troops in the area.

I don't currently have marble or horses hooked up. Horses will be
hooked up in 10-15 turns I think, marble will be quite a bit longer.

I will try to avoid trading CoL to Ruff until he's moved his troops
(and if he declares, then I won't trade it).

dsplaisted to 3Some:

Another option you have is to announce that you have a defensive pact
with me to try to deter Ruff from attacking, or get him to reconsider
after he does attack. I don't think you need to say you have a pact
with shadyforce too, because he is fairly far away from Ruff.

If the only troops Ruff has moved towards you are the ones near
Unimatrix 1, I would be inclined not to announce a defensive pact
until after he attacks, because we don't know for sure that he will.

Us to 3Some:

Thanks,
Can you end your turn?
I want to be the last to end my turn, so that I can bring a couple of workers to safety immediately after the new turn starts.

dsplaisted to 3Some:

Done.

I think if you give your units a move command, they will move at the
beginning of the next turn regardless of whether you are logged in.
I'm not sure, though. I've given my warrior which is in Unimatrix 1
the command to move west 1 tile, so assuming you have visibility into
the city, you can tell me whether he moves when the turn ticks over or
whether it doesn't happen until I log in.

shadyforce to 3Some:

No units given a move command will not move until you log in and even then will not usually move until you have moved your active units (pretty much the same way it works in single player). I've been told that units given a move command will move when the turn ticks over if you have not logged in but I have to take people's word for that.

dsplaisted to 3Some:

Well if m_h/kodii can see whether my warrior moves when the turn ticks
over we'll know for sure.

shadyforce to 3Some:

shadyforce from x.x.x.63 joined the chat 25 hours ago

shadyforce from x.x.x.63 left the chat 25 hours ago

dsplaisted from x.x.x.203 joined the chat 20 hours ago

mostly_harmless from x.x.x.97 joined the chat 15 hours ago

shadyforce from x.x.x.63 joined the chat 4 hours ago

shadyforce from x.x.x.63 left the chat 4 hours ago

dsplaisted from x.x.x.203 joined the chat 76 minutes ago

mostly_harmless from x.x.x.97 joined the chat 75 minutes ago

mostly_harmless: Hi,

shadyforce from x.x.x.63 joined the chat 75 minutes ago

shadyforce: hi

mostly_harmless: quick update.

mostly_harmless: I had to delay our Literature/Great Lib prject due to Ruff.

dsplaisted: so broker researched CoL also this turn, but I won the coinflip

mostly_harmless: If he declares, our Marble source will be disconnetd

mostly_harmless: so all our prechops would go to waste. Therefore Iam holding back on teh Great LIb.

dsplaisted: Is Ruff moving units towards you anywhere else besides Unimatrix 1?

shadyforce: what makes you think he's coming for ou now?

shadyforce: *you

mostly_harmless: There two more Praets at UM3, chasing our settler, that is supposed to settel near him and connect Horses.

dsplaisted: I only have visibility on UM1, UM2, and DQ

dsplaisted: ere is UM3?

mostly_harmless: Apart from your warning from Krill, he is supposed to move his units to join up with Imhotep

mostly_harmless: UM3 is south of UM2, SW of the Wine

mostly_harmless: He knows we are light on defense.

dsplaisted: Well he's not moving everything he has against you at the moment it appears

dsplaisted: There are two praets in UM2 which have remained there for the past several turns I think

mostly_harmless: So he thinks couple of units per city might be neough.

shadyforce: tbh, I don't think he will attack before he gets currency/construction and other useful techs from the alliance

mostly_harmless: Unfortunately, we built a rather nice road netwrok, which he canuse.

shadyforce: but that's just an objective guess... I have no idea what's going on over there

dsplaisted: you mean subjective?

shadyforce: yeah, that one

mostly_harmless: any chance to get your horses shady? I guess not.

mostly_harmless:

shadyforce: I rejected your horse request so I can have a look around

shadyforce: of course you can have it, but 2 problems:

mostly_harmless: Cool, horses would give us the chance to protect our Moai City.

shadyforce: I have a 44 hammer overflow that was going into a HA (I beelieve that if it goes into an axe, some of it is turned into gold

shadyforce: secondly, I'm sending an Immortal over to try and raze a carthage city and I have no anti-Numid HAs yet

shadyforce: so I might have to postpone that attack

dsplaisted: 44 overflow won't automatically convert to gold

dsplaisted: Max overflow from the Axe to the next thing is 35 hammers

shadyforce: but if it's going into an axe or spear, won't I get at most 35 hmmers overflow?

shadyforce: it's an overflow from a stable to a HA

dsplaisted: so if you don't have anything invested in the Axe yet, then you'll get 44 overflow hammers into the Axe, plus whatever 1t of production is

dsplaisted: say you had 10 hpt, you'd get 44 10 into the Axe, which would be 54

dsplaisted: an Axe costs 35, so the overflow would be 19, which is fine

shadyforce: oh... so overflow is only capped by the thing I've just built, not the thing I'm putting the overflow into?are you sure?

mostly_harmless: Horses will only be good this turn, to whip out an chariot from scratch, bringing our capital down 2pops. I am not even sure I am prepared to do that to protect a size 1 city.

dsplaisted: correct

dsplaisted: I'm 99% sure

shadyforce: I'm going to check to make sure... I might just put it into a forge if some of it will be wasted

dsplaisted: Your Moai city is 1W of the fish?

dsplaisted: er, 1E?

mostly_harmless: Will send another message to Ruff, and see whether I get a return. Did not get one from my last turn message.

mostly_harmless: yep, 1E.

mostly_harmless: It is currently undefended.

dsplaisted: and it has no defense? And where are Ruff's units, and where are the roads?

mostly_harmless: Ruffs, warrior has a 1tile headstart to getthere.

mostly_harmless: Not enough time to whip an archer there.

shadyforce: can ruff see it's empty?

dsplaisted: what turn will ruff arrive there on? And are there any roads that would speed a unit from my territory to the city?

mostly_harmless: No, i think he cannot see it is empty, but he probably guessed from seeing the settler going there with no escort earlier. He can raze the city on T98.

mostly_harmless: too late for your skirmisher.

mostly_harmless: Maybe I am just overreacting, but that warning from Krill just put me over the edge.

mostly_harmless:

shadyforce: just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you

mostly_harmless: exactly, we just got the bad luck to be positioned next to the Rush-Guy

mostly_harmless: Only the forming of teh NUTA was giving us a break.

shadyforce: ZPV build an explorer! I didn't think any civ player build them

mostly_harmless: Too sad, that he might be turning. I think we had (have) a decent chance to be on par with the UTA in 15turn.

mostly_harmless: !!Explorer? ahem, maybe I am just not good enough to see the use of this unit?

dsplaisted: Well, I just double-whiped an Axe last turn, so I can finish an HA this turn in Isengard if shady wants to lend me horses for 1 turn

shadyforce: horse for 10 turns minimum

dsplaisted: but it wouldn't be able to get to the Moai city

shadyforce: unless we declare war to break it... which ruins our trade routes

dsplaisted: hrm, wasn't sure about that, too bad

dsplaisted: I need to hook up my horses

dsplaisted: that won't happen for another 10 turns probably though

mostly_harmless: We have a nice horse city, we can settle next turn. But it is right next to Ruff and has only a single axe as defense.

shadyforce: btw, I was thinking maybe one of us should tech machinery early-ish... they would be better counters for Praets than axes (I think - depends on how much they cost)

dsplaisted: I was thinking of going for Machinery, but Crossbows need iron too

shadyforce: ok, I just borrowed a horse of Krill... I'll give you mine

dsplaisted: to me or to m_h? I think m_h needs to decide if he's willing to whip his capital

dsplaisted: I'm not sure where your borders are m_h, is there a possibility that we could close borders with eachother to warp one of my units a bit further north?

shadyforce: to MH

shadyforce: but I suppose it can wait to see if he is going to whip or not

dsplaisted: also another tactic would be to put a scout on the same tile as the warrior

shadyforce: haha

dsplaisted: that way when he declared war he'd get warped

mostly_harmless: out of interest, wre you going to offer CoL & Currency to every NUTA member?

dsplaisted: yes, but I'm not sure about Ruff at the moment

shadyforce: I gave currency to Krill... it seemed prudent since he's giving us construction shortly and he's pulling his weight with techs and soon money

shadyforce: open to suggestions re Imhotep and Ruff

shadyforce: btw dsp,where are you sending your spare missionary?

mostly_harmless: Warping, will not help. Ruff must know now about Wolf359's location after the border pop.

shadyforce: *hint*hint* :P

mostly_harmless: Give it to me, give it to me. :D

dsplaisted: I'm not sure about the missionary, it depends on what Ruff does this turn I think

dsplaisted: It would be useful to help build the colossus

mostly_harmless: you will need Monotheism and a turn anarchy for that, right?

shadyforce: how so?

shadyforce: we need Mono

dsplaisted: yeah I'd have to get that from Ruff

dsplaisted: so again, it depends on what he does

shadyforce: darn, we need Ruff for that... hard to deny him currency CoL and expect that off him

dsplaisted: I'm hoping to revolt to Conf and then HR/OrgRel t96 and t97

shadyforce: btw, ZPV has been asking about my Immortal... so he might garrison Leptin out of precaution

dsplaisted: m_h, could you build roads so that if you finished a chariot/HA on turn 96, it could get to the tile 1NW of the corn on the same turn?

dsplaisted: That way on turn 98 you could attack the warrior before it attacked your city (assuming you can be logged in then)

dsplaisted: and you wouldn't have to do a no-shield whip

mostly_harmless: Monotheism is 3turns for us in war mode. with a little cah infusion of ~10gold, we could switch now and ou have it in 3turns.

mostly_harmless: roads are there all over teh place. its the stupid river losing us one complete move point

mostly_harmless: at the capital

dsplaisted: bleh, Krill will apparently have construction on t97

mostly_harmless: it all depends on ruff's movements this turn.

dsplaisted: one turn too late

shadyforce from x.x.x.63 left the chat 37 minutes ago

shadyforce: why does construction matter? do you need to move over a river on road?

dsplaisted: yeah

mostly_harmless: our capital is behind a river.

dsplaisted: can you get to the corn tile in 1t from your capital?

dsplaisted: or are there hills/forests on the other side of the river blocking you?

mostly_harmless: so I believe the river crossing costs 1movepoint even with roads before construction

dsplaisted: correct, but would you be crossing onto a hill or a forest, or flatland?

mostly_harmless: I can get to the corn tile with a 2mover in 1turn.

dsplaisted: can you get the corn and the forest 1NW of the corn roaded by turn 97?

mostly_harmless: all roaded incl. NW of corn. the thing is ruffs warrior is on our roads as well and can move 1NW of corn this turn!

mostly_harmless: They are already roaded

dsplaisted: OK but after that there are no further roads he can use?

mostly_harmless: nope. only up to NW of corn. I have warrior on the corn right now, but moved this turn.

dsplaisted: So if you build a Chariot/HA t96, it can move to the corn that turn, move onte the forest 1S of the cows on t97, and attack the warrior on t98, assuming you can move before Ruff

dsplaisted: is the corn tile in your territory?

mostly_harmless: yes, move onto the tile SE of cows t97, move 1s of fish t98. If I can move before ruff I can intercept him in that sceanrio, yes

mostly_harmless: no, not in my terriroty

mostly_harmless: in 4turns it will be.

dsplaisted: Oh well, if it was you could have upgraded to an Axe and had two turns where you'd have a chance to attack him if you moved first

mostly_harmless: I put an unprotected worker next to his warrior as bait. Also, if he declares before moving that warrior, he will have to attack my corn-warrior and lose one movepoint. I have an axe in place to kill him then.

mostly_harmless: I will hold this turn until ruff moved or I hear back from him.

shadyforce: sorry to sidetrack a bit... but what are dsp and I researching now?

dsplaisted: pretty sure attacking like that won't cost a movement point

dsplaisted: how fast can you get Calendar at 100%?

shadyforce: 6 turns

mostly_harmless: a 1mover attacking on a road netwrok, cannot move again.

dsplaisted: and how much cash to do so?

shadyforce: I need ~60 gold

shadyforce: maybe 50

mostly_harmless: 5turns in peaceful mode. 7tutrns inwar mode.

mostly_harmless: same here but I get another 20 from regoarrar

mostly_harmless: *20gold

mostly_harmless: curently 11gold expenses

dsplaisted: ruff is joining

shadyforce: hehe, I'm 17 gpt epenses

dsplaisted: how much gold do you have currently shady?

mostly_harmless: lets see what ruff does.

shadyforce: 63

dsplaisted: OK, I think shady should research Calendar at 100%

shadyforce: I could probably have done currency quicker before libraries were done... not sup[er efficient planning by me

dsplaisted: I will research Machinery at 0% and fund shady

dsplaisted: I think m_h/kodii should continue their path of research, and shady should research feudalism when currency is done

dsplaisted: When that finishes we will be able to research civil service with both prerequisites

dsplaisted: unless you guys think we need civil service before then

mostly_harmless: what is our path of research, again?

dsplaisted: literature?

shadyforce: despite not having Feud prereq, Civil Service ealier might well pay better

shadyforce: not to mention, maces obsolete praets

dsplaisted: yeah

shadyforce: once const is in, Krill will probbaly donate his money to our research as well

mostly_harmless: literature is done with less than 35beakers. we coudl go feudalism after that.

shadyforce: maybe Imho and Ruff... depending on what those two are really up to

dsplaisted: I'll have a great merchant on turn 109 I think

shadyforce: can you bulb CS?

shadyforce: wait never mind, 109 is ages away

dsplaisted: only 15 turns!

shadyforce: we';; hopefully be half way ot 3/4 way to CS by then anyway

shadyforce: ugh, I can't type

dsplaisted: but if I use the GM we can get it on turn 109, right?

shadyforce: I know it's doable if you avoid certain techs on the religious line... such as Monarchy I think... but maybe if you have Monarchy it's still bulbable

dsplaisted: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=140952

shadyforce: ruff asking for currency... will I give it to him>

shadyforce: ?

mostly_harmless: Feudalism for us would be 10turns. But would ned cash

dsplaisted: you should have logged out before he had a chance to ask :-p

shadyforce: I'm faking being away from the keyboard

shadyforce: I haven't gone into diplo screen

dsplaisted: yes, I can bulb civil service, I don't even need to avoid any techs

mostly_harmless: ruff left.

mostly_harmless: he offerd Mono, which I turned down, saying I'd rather have stp down his units, which he made out he can't see?

mostly_harmless: his warrior is NW of the corn

dsplaisted: if he does declare on you, it would be really nice if you could get Monotheism by t97, so I can revolt to HR/OrgRel that turn

shadyforce: well, he's probably offering us all mono now

mostly_harmless: ok, lots of stuff depends on what he does this turn. Bloody Romans.

dsplaisted: well he can't offer it to you shady, since you didn't respond to his diplo request, right?

shadyforce: correct

shadyforce: oh right, you mean in the case we refuse to give him currency and CoL

mostly_harmless: Needless to say, I'd rather have him not getting any techs right now, unless he recognizes, he makes one NUTA member really really nervous

dsplaisted: I'm going to avoid logging in until the turn is almost done if I can so I can hopefully have a better gauge of his intentions before deciding whether to accept his trade

mostly_harmless: Aw, I wish Kodii was here as well.

mostly_harmless: Will have to quit now. lets see what the next day brings.

dsplaisted: so please keep me up to date on what happens with him

dsplaisted: good luck!

shadyforce: lucky I was logged in so I won't have a diplo screen offer waiting for me I have to respond to before I can MM my empire

dsplaisted: yeah that worked well

dsplaisted: if anyone is going to clear the chat, please save it and send it out to us before you do

mostly_harmless: well, you can always decline and re-request. he has not finished his turn yet

dsplaisted: I will if I need to

mostly_harmless: saved it

shadyforce: I think it's unlikely his attack (assuming one is coming) will come right now, this turn and that our best move is to just give him these economic techs, get mono off him and give him a chance still to work for the UTA... I'm worried that our paranoia might become a self-fulfilling prophecy

dsplaisted: the problem is he can attack the Moai city on turn 98

dsplaisted: won't need to declare until turn 97 for that

shadyforce: sorry, I don't just mean he won't attack this turn, I mean I don't think his betrayal of the NUTA is coming in the immediate future... I think he'll wait to get construction and other techs, maybe even Civil Service etc first before attacking MH

mostly_harmless: The Moai city is size 1 and has nothing in it. I am prepared to give it up. I have delayed a settler in our Marble city and will have 2axe there next turn plus one warrior and maybe another archer the turn after.

shadyforce: but that's just a guess (wishful thinking maybe)

mostly_harmless: ok, I am off. save the last bit, please. bye. thanks for all the cooperation

shadyforce to 3Some:

Any update? I see that Ruff has ended his turn. I can't log into the game because I expect a Monotheism - Currency deal will be waiting for me.

Us to 3Some:

Unfortunately, regoarrar requests a reload.

dsplaisted to 3Some:

The game has been reloaded, but it looks like it's from the beginning
of this turn. So we'll have to redo anything we did this turn.

shadyforce to 3Some:

So are we going to trade stuff with Ruff? I need to know before I log in.

dsplaisted to 3Some:

It would be nice to be able to wait for him to make his moves before
making ours.

But barring that I think it is OK to trade with him. As you said, it
may make it less likely that he will attack.

dsplaisted to 3Some:

So with the reload, ruff thought everyone rejected his mono trades and
he thought he was being frozen out of the NUTA, so he declared on m_h.
At least, that's what he said in a chat I had with him:

ruff.tad: Dan - you there?
19:19
eu: yep, what's up?

ruff.tad: did we reload the pitboss game?
19:20
eu: yes

ruff.tad: did I send you mono?

eu: Dunno, haven't logged in since then

ruff.tad: did I send you mono before we reloaded?

have I ever sent you mono

?

eu: Not that I know of
19:21
ruff.tad: ok - thought I had ... maybe it got lost in the reload

eu: yeah I haven't logged in since yesterday, so I probably never saw it

you may have sent it

ruff.tad: ok - will have to talk to somene in the NUTA that has logged in
19:22
eu: I don't think it hurts to try to send it a second time

ruff.tad: no - it isn't that
19:23
I assumed the NUTA had all rejected my mono trades

and so I thought I was being frozen out of the NUTA (after mh prob
emailed everyone)

so I declared on mh - might have been based on faulty informaiton

eu: lol
19:24
yeah, better send an email out then

ruff.tad: have done

might have some appologies to issue

eu: FYI I haven't gotten an email from you either

ruff.tad: doh - only sent it to shady
sent it to everyone now

dsplaisted to 3Some:

Further chatting with Ruff:
eu: So what do you propose to do to defuse the situation? I don't
want to freeze you out of the NUTA, but I don't want you attacking
other members either
Enviado às 19:40 de domingo
ruff.tad: well - if my trade offers never went out (because of the
reload) then I think I owe mh an appology and request a reload
eu: did you actually attack him or just declare war?
ruff.tad: I must say that I am very frustrated by this game - I was
going to play it as a 1 man burn and pillage with Preats running wile
wild
captured a worker so far
but no other damage
eu: yeah you kinda got screwed by the alliance lines being drawn
with you in the center of your allies
ruff.tad: the way it is playing out - that isn't going to work
in which case I shall have an internal rebelion and the peace loving
United Federation of Plodders will defeat the Borg and I will just
turn into a nice little tech crazy happy civ
and supply all of the outside civs (in the alliance) with my weapons
eu: Do we really need a reload? We already did one this turn
ruff.tad: would be cleaner - but maybe not
depends on what mh says
eu: I think he's fast asleep now
ruff.tad: doesn't even know he is at war
yeah - ok

Us to 3Some:

Hi Daniel,
should Ruff not agree to our peace deal, then there is a chance you could really annoy him.
If you are prepared to do that, do not move your scouting warrior at Unimatrix 1 but close borders with Ruff.
Your warrior is teleported to east hopefully.
If it is not teleported at the same tile his two attackers are on (1W of Kobe) you can then declare war on him and move onto the tile 1SE of Unimatrix1, razing it the next turn.
Reinforcements from Unimatrix 2 should be 1tile short to reach the city.

Just an idea.

[Kodii]

**The action continues**

Ruff to NUTA:

Hey - Feels like you guys froze me out of the tech trades. I sent mono round and it looks like everyone rejected it. Sure, I saw that mh was getting a bit ansy but that isn't any reason to freeze me out.

Guess it will be 5v5v1.

Ruff

Edit: Wait. Did we reload to an earlier save? Was that before my tech offers or after? If it was after, then you guys really have rejected all of those trades and my in-game actions stand. If it was before, then I guess I acted on bad information and frustration. Please let me knowh

Ruff to NUTA:

I've been talking to Dsp and it does seem that the reload has screwed with my head. During the start of T94 (the first version), I sent around mono to everyone and requested techs that they had just discovered). When I logged this evening (thinking it was the turn) - I found that all of those tech trades had (apparently) not gone through. I thought you guys were freezing me out and so I declared on mh and captured 1 worker.

Well - it seems that I might have been mistaken - sorry about that. I've asked for a reload based on this misunderstanding. However, the other option is that I just return the worker I captured and we play as if it never happened (if I can get mh to believe me).

My thoughts when this game started was that I would rush to Preats and start rolling over people. The development of two large blocks and my location in the middle of my allies obviously frustrated these initial thoughts. I did approach the UTA to see if I could join them and that would free me up to attack people close to me. They (sort of) said yes and I have been thinking about if I will execute that plan.

I've decided not to pursue that line. I guess this game is frustrating me and I was looking for some way of shaking it up. Anyway (and I know this paints me as flaky and untrustworth in this game), I just want to let you know that I have decided to retire the Borg theme (perfect when I was planning on just ignoring everyone and taking their cities - not so hot with how the game is playing out) and play the following:

United Federation of Plodders - dullards who just want to build and research stuff.

I'll leave 2 or 3 cities on permanent military builds (at the moment) and send these units to whoever in the NUTA ones them but my other cities will be very much focused on tech.

dsplaisted to NUTA:

Assuming mostly_harmless is OK with it, I think you should just
declare peace and give him back the worker. That way we won't have to
do another reload, and I think the game won't let you declare on him
for 10 turns anyway, which should give him a bit more peace of mind.


I think you may have to give him Monotheism as part of the peace deal
for that to work though.

Us to NUTA:

What a nice start into the week.
With both Ruff and us having finished our original Turn 94, I thought I had at least until T95 before a DoW.
So, waking up and seeing a DoW in the re-loaded T94 was a bit shocking.

First of all, we were indeed very suspicious about Ruff's troop deployment since a couple of turns.
Ruff knows we were light on defense, because we were focussing on tech.

Unfortunately, my messages to Ruff regarding his troop positions and his intentions were ignored, which led us to switch to mobilisation mode, fearing the worst.
When T94 ticked over and dsplaisted and shadyforce got CoL & Currency, I indeed contacted them and informed them about the situation and our fears, asking them to wait with the tech deals with Ruff until further into the turn, until I got a reply from Ruff and we could defuse the situation.
Ruff, you can hopefully understand that we saw it as the best for the NUTA if we were not going to trade/gift you important techs, when we feared you would break away the next turn.
Unfortunately, our little ingame chat was not very fruitful, Ruff, and you quickly logged out without defusing the situation (units @ Kobe).
And then basically the game stopped due to the reload request.
We could make out that all this was a big misunderstanding, but you already said yourself, you contacted the UTA and were set to attack us for a little fun.
So it seems our reading of the situation was not totally wrong.

I can see your frustration with the game, given your choice of civ, but as I said before, you have good lands and there is a life after Praetorians.

I see two ways to continue from here:
Option 1.) You do not have a "revolution" and continue to go to war with us, in which case we might request another reload, as your unit movements have been different from the original T94, which you ended (troops at Kobe, capturing of worker).
Needless to say, that we really, really do not want this game to develop into a mess like the Apolyton demogame and move on at a decent pace. So I said, we_ might_ request a reload.
Even if we do not reload, we will have sufficient military in place, with our switch to mobilisation to deny you any further gains in the short term.
Furthermore, the interruption of our teching pace will not be taken nicely by the wider NUTA, I believe. Monotheism, is not that expensive to justify letting us (Kodii & me) fight it out alone only to get that tech out of you.

Kodii and me were miffed by finding us next to the Aggressive Praetorian civ, basically throwing a big spanner in our plans to try a peaceful build up in the beginning-mid game.
The forming of the UTA and the NUTA, relieved our situation somewhat, although we were still wary of Praetorians marching up and down our borders. While we would be sad to see our progress stopped by this conflict, I for myself am dedicated to fight this out to the last man. (can't say for Kodii, as he has been away or a few days and is not expected back until later this day)

Option 2.) To start with, we really favor this one, obviously.
Ruff has his revolution, overthrowing the Borg oppressors.
We do not reload, but sign a peace deal this turn. We are fine in writing off the 2turn delay in our tech & build plans and the temporary switch to war economy to the story.
The worker is gifted back to us, ideally on a roaded tile to avoid further delays. (warrior & worker will be teleported outside our territory) And we obviously need open border again for the worker gifting.
We can trade Monotheism for Aesthetics as well. We would also like to get one of your Praets. Since the time window to use them is basically closing fast, with you sitting in the middle and all your Praets miles away from the UTA.
But it would really help towards easing our worries about the same situation happening again in 10 turns after you got Construction from Krill.
With Option 2, I can see the NUTA being on par with the UTA tech wise in ~15 turns.

I will offer the plain peace deal in game now.
Unfortunately, I will be away from the game in 1 hour for the rest of the week and I am not sure Kodii will have the chance to see this turn.
If you are fine with Option 2, please accept the peace deal as soon as possible this turn.

Thanks.
Hoping for a peaceful solution but determined to fight it out as well.

mh (& Kodii as he is not aware of any of this)

Ruff to NUTA:

I am more than happy with Option Two and I thank mh (& Kodii?) for their generous spirit. I've accepted peace, sent round mono and requested OBs with mh. I'll return your worker and send you a Preat. My other Preats (excluding those needed for MP duty) I will send North to Imhotep.

Re Tech - I have finished mono but I am unsure what to start next. I have it sitting on Theology - let me know if anyone else is teching that and I will swap away - actually - what is everyone else teching?

mh - Lit
Krill - ?
Shady - ?
Imhotep - ?
Dsp - ?

shadyforce to NUTA:

Hi all,

I guessed I missed all the excitement.

Firstly, I don't know how long is left on the turn timer so would someone mind making sure it doesn't tick over before I get home to play my turn? I'll be home in just over 6 hours (1900 BST).

Secondly, while I don't particularly want to take sides, I know that internal conflict is going to be the death of NUTA and victory for UTA and I really want to take those UTA punks out. The 6 of us working together seems essential. So I'm glad this issue is resolved. I'll give Currency to everyone as soon as I get home (could you all request it off me so I can accept right away - just to make sure we all get it this turn and no commerce is lost).

Thirdly, I am on Calendar. I can get it in 6 turns if I run max science and to do that I will need a donation of 60 gold. I believe Krill will have Construction in 3 turns. Also, are we going to bulb Philosophy still?

Ruff, it might make more sense for you to run 0% science and donate money to the researching efforts of any of our 'designated researchers'? Imhotep as well? I know Krill already said he'd do the donating rather than the researching once Construction is in. And it sort of makes sense that the 3 dudes with the cheap libraries and (I think) highest GNPs do the researching. We'll get the essential techs faster that way.

With regards to tech goals, I think Civil Service is a priority with Machinery, Feudalism, Music and Theology as options. (Any others? I can't see the tech tree right now.) If someone were to research Feudalism quickly, we could get the pre-req boost for CS. Or it might just be more efficient to research CS right away. But it all really depends on our overall plan - whether we're going to out tech or invade the UTA.

I again want to bring up the idea of some sort of organised assault. Since there was an obvious lack of enthusiasm for my suggestion, perhaps someone else would like to suggest something? Ruff said something about marching his army up to Imhotep. Imhotep, are you planning an attack or somnething? I don't recall seeing an email from you about that but I see your power chart has been steadily increasing.

The presence or absence of a NUTA military invasion plan will determine our immediate tech goals (not to mention what I should be building in my cities) and we need to decide our tech goals/tech strategy now. So please everyone speak up.

Krill to NUTA:

Construction should be finished eot t95, after that I'd like to go zero science and start gifting gold, preferably to whoever is researching Calendar if they need it (which turns out to be Shady, which is excellent). After that I don't mind what we do too much, maybe head for CS and Engineering? Pikes are the best defensive troops we can use against WE. Music isn't bad by any means, especially if we let Shady or myself research it to bomb either of our front cities. It would make ZPV and regoarrarrs front a really hard front to defend, and I could use it as a wedge for an invasion. Fuedalism isn't all that useful, what with WE around. Nationalism is expensive and difficult to utilise on this happiness poor map, and we probably want to look at short circuiting Lib.

I want to bulb Philo, and I should be able to do that on t99. I have plans to get Angkor Wat up asap for the prophet points for a shrine, and I'll try to get some missionaries down to ruff asap if anyone wants the religion. I can't feasibly get 1 missionary down to each of you, it would take to long, so really we might have to just all gift 1 missionary to someone to spread it around as required.

Imhotep to NUTA:

I have shut down research completely and am stacking up both gold and units. I’d like to launch an attack on regoarrar soon. If Ruff could march some Praets to my southern city I would take the way through dsplaisted’s and shady’s land – much faster, and possibly picking up a unit or two from both to have a massive SoD. That said, could shady focus on Catapults when it’s available? We need at least 10 to break LBs in the cities. More are always better. I have a NAP with regoarrar that allows me attacking on T119 – that should be enough time to get enough Catapults and move a significant amount of units. Btw. Some Ele would be nice too – I got a spare ele resource if someone needs it.

dsplaisted to NUTA:

As far as getting Civil Service, I will have a great merchant on turn
109 which I should be able to use to bulb Civil Service.

As far as attacking regoarrarr, you can't do so by going through my
territory. I haven't even met him in-game yet.

Imhotep to NUTA:

But I see Mali coloured borders at that lake in the South. Are you not South
of shadyforce?

shadyforce to NUTA:

He is south of me but seperated by a channel. Stay to the north of that channel and come through my lands.

Ruff to NUTA:

I can feed some people some $. I too have cheap libraries but so far I have concentrated on military. I will be putting down some new cities that will concentrate on commerce. Engineering will speed up our army delivery system so we should prioritize that.

Ruff to NUTA:

Oh - 1 other thing - anyone close to having a 10XP unit? If so, share that around and unlock everyone's Heroic Epic.

Us to NUTA:

Hello!

This was a convenient time for me to go away and then return only when mh leaves. I have a lot (and I mean a LOT) to go through, but I thought I'd let you know that I am back and will be taking over as turnplayer now that mh is away.

Us to NUTA:

Well, this was certainly an interesting turn of events!

In my personal opinion, I think this was a great kick in the bum for us as the NUTA. The problem right now is a huge lack of communication. This needs to be resolved as soon as possible. I wish I had the time to set something up (like a chatroom or a place we can post things, such as who is researching what), but I will not have the chance to do that any time soon. We need to be on the same page or else the UTA will continue to edge that little bit ahead of us.

On the bright side, the UTA will be really confused in regards to why Ruff declared war on us

And on the topic of communication, I think we need to make a concrete list of who is researching what. I noticed that someone started it up, but it never got completed. Now that we have completed Literature, what should we research next? I have started Music at 0%, but is open to anything.

[Kodii]

mh to Kodii:

Hi Kodii,
change in situation.
Hope you have the time to read through all eMails.
The game is still very interesting for us.
Unfortunately I am away from the game until Saturday.
I can read and post in the forum though, so I would appreciate the odd update there.

I was alerted to Ruff having a number of Praets still in his territory and not on the way to regoarrar, for example on T93.
One Praet and a warrior were on the border to Kobe, in position to snatch our two chopping workers there.
Two more Praets were at UM3 ready to pursue our settler.
Daniel informed me later that there are two more Praets at UM2.
So I was smelling a rat.
Ruff ignored my eMails regarding the situation.
Furthermore Daniel relayed a warning from Krill that Ruff was indeed planning to attack us.
I handled the turn tick over to T94 to move first our workers at Kobe to safety.
I also switched Kobe from the intended settler (two chopes) to an axeman the turn before. Kobe was unprotected, but the assigned warrior is returning to KObe now.
So with two chops we got an instant Axe and lots of overflow to get another axe or archer on T95.
Two units should be enough to hold Kobe against Ruff's Praet/Warrior pair. (Hill, 20% defense & attack across a river).

At BH I had to modify the city to also get an axeman out on T94, which worked. But had to delay Literature by one turn.
Which is fine as, we will lose Marble at BH anyway, when Ruff declares.
The garrison warrior at BH moved towards Relativity hoping to intercept Ruff's warrior.
I also put Valensise onto a tile next to his warrior as a lure, trying to prevent his warrior to reach Relativity before us. (I see no way to get a defender into Relativity before Ruff can raze the city on T98).
The axeman at BH finished on T94 and moved 1W across the river, ready to kill Ruff's warrior, should he fall for the worker lure.

I switched CoT from Lib to Archer.
And Relativity from workboat to Archer.

Ruff logged in, and I tried to chat to him to defuse the situation. But he ignored my question about his troops and logged out.
He moved his scouting warrior towards Relativity (1NW of corn), not falling for the lure. He left his units at Kobe unmoved.
And then ended his turn.

I chatted to Daniel and Brian, asking them to hold back CoL and Currency from Ruff, while I traded it with them for Aesthetics.
Ruff was trying to trade around his Monotheism for the new techs.

Then a reload was rightly requested from regoarrar.
The reloaded T94, was at a state were most of our units were moved (workers to safety, intercepting warrior to Relativity, worker lure in place).
However, Ruff had to redo his moves. This time, he took the worker lure, capturing Valensise at BH (Making Relativity safe, as we can now get a warrior in there on time and can whip an archer on time as well).
He also moved his Praet/warrior pair next to Kobe and one Praet from UM3 south to pursue our settler.

So clearly a break of rule in my book. We could rightly request a reload, I believe. However, this will delay the game further and Ruff and Imhotep are already losing interest. And of course Relativity would be back in grave danger.

I have moved all our units in the new T94 the same way I moved them in the old turn T94.
From the eMails you will see that there is an option for Ruff to sign peace this turn again.
I have offered a peace deal in game.
IF he accepts, we get our trade connection core-Kobe back.
We will then finish Literature on T95 and you should swap to Great Lib at BH immediately (IF YOU HAVE OPEN BORDERS!), also putting two chops into it the same turn. Great Lib needs 140 raw hammers.
4 x 30 from chops over 2 turns (all pre-chopped, just need clever worker management) and 2turns x 10hpt from BH itself, so you will have to configure BH to give at least 10hpt.
Great Lib should then finish at T97.
If peace is signed with Ruff, we can trade Aesthetics for Monotheism with him.
I also offered Aesth for Currency and CoL in game to Brian and Daniel.

I think we should get a new unit at Kobe to fell safer anyway. If peace is in place and you can get open borders on T94 as well, you can switch Kobe to an axeman, otherwise an archer has to do.
The workers should get back to chopping out two more settlers. Chop the tile 1W of Kobe within the 10turns enforced peace.

In case of peace, you can also settle Border City 1 on T95 and out an axe as first defender there.

In case of continued war, (and not reload) Relativity is secured by Siegfried and should continue the workboat.
Our BH axe should take out the warrior with Valensise. (You might have to get into a discussion about play order. We should have first right to move. Bring it up in the forums and I can join the discussion. Do not let that warrior escape with our worker.)
Kobe will finish an archer. The two workers will start chopping out new archers. Be aware that there is a scouting Ruff warrior south east of our warrior at Kobe.
The Great Lib is out as we will have lost Marble at BH.
If you feel there is a chance to still get the Great Lib at some point (monitor the tech screen for other to get Aesth) you might want to safe some chops, otherwise those can all got into axes.
Obviously, settling Border City 1 is out in case of war and the settler should be escorted by the axe to a safer spot (grabbing horses ideally), maybe southern coast
There is a chance to get hold of Horses much earlier than this. Brian already tested it in the old T94. Brian can get Horses from Krill and we can get Brian's horses.

There might be a chance for Daniel to annoy UM1. See other eMail.

Also, if you cannot play the turns due to RL, we should consider allowing Daniel to log in for our civ and play our turns, what do you think? I will leave that to you.
If I do not hear from you in our RB forum ("I am back") before T95 has started, I will try to contact Daniel with our civ password.

Good luck.

To Ruff:

Hi Ruff,

haven't heard back from you regarding our message last turn, so you will have seen we went into mobilisation mode to be on the safe side.
We are not quite sure we understand your motivation. Without this disturbance we would have been on par with the UTA tech-wise in 15turns.
We can see that being surrounded by NUTAs is not good for your early rush strategy, but you have good lands and the aggressive trait is still useful after the Praet-window is closed.

So, we urge you to step down from your aggressive position towards us and continue cooperation.

I guess, we will know either way by this turn.

From Ruff:

Guys,

I know that I have totally screwed our relationship in this game - sorry about that. I've just gifted you a Preat and I am sending all of my other ones North to Imhotep. I know that you cannot verify that but you should see my power drop in about 3 or 4 turns when I hand them over.

I'm going to turn into a little builder for the next 100 turns.

To Ruff:

Hi Ruff, I don't know mh's personal stance, but the recent turn of events and their outcome make me optomistic that we can work together mutually, so I look forward to increased communication with you!

dsplaisted to NUTA:

ZPV founded a city (Leptis) across the water from me. It's only
guarded by a warrior, and I am planning to attack it on turn 100 via a
galley.

With the current combat rules, I will have to declare war, wait 9
hours, and then attack the city. Ruff, can you resurrect your request
to remove the second "double-move" rule? If I do it, it might tip off
ZPV that I plan to attack. (Also, we shouldn't all immediately jump
in on the thread and agree, we should do it bit by bit and hopefully
wait until some of the UTA members have responded before all of us
have responded.)

Krill to NUTA:

Ruff and me have replied, as have Broker...just waiting now...

shadyforce to NUTA:

Hi guys,

It's looking good about getting the rule change. I would appreciate anyone who hasn't already done so, vote in the thread asap and once a majority have done so, we can declare it officially changed. Once that is done, I can declare on ZPV and hopefully raze Hippo this turn (barring a rotten dice roll).

The bad news is that I can no longer see the Numidian Cavalry that was 1 move away from Hippo and 2 moves from Leptis. He may have moved towards Leptis this turn and if so, it might be necessary for Daniel to move before ZPV next turn (if possible).

[Kodii]

**The following conversation runs through the past few turns**

From dsplaisted:

Next turn Wolf 359 will grow to size 2. I will need to gift the city
to you, then gift the workers to you, and then you will need to chop
the forest. Since you will probably log on before I do, you should
probably request the city from me but not end turn. That way when I
log on I will be able to accept giving the city to you, as well as
gift you the workers.

Also try to keep track of how much this affects your economy so I can
reimburse you if you want.

From dsplaisted:

I've sent Wolf 359 as a gift, you need to accept it this turn, start a
Forge, and then I can gift you the worker which will let you finish
the chop. Then next turn you can whip the forge, and gift me the city
back on turn 98.

To dsplaisted:

Sounds good. I am away for the rest of the afternoon. You can gift me that worker whenever and I'll finish my turn tonight.

From dsplaisted:

Let me know when you've done so... not sure what time zone you're in

From dsplaisted:

I've accepted the return gift of Wolf 359. So any time you're ready
you can log in and gift Chopin (my worker) back to me.

In addition, I have two more cities I'd like to build cheap forges in
if you don't mind. Root Canal has two pre-chopped forests and one
worker. You should be able to chop one forest this turn, one next
turn, and gift it back to me on turn 100. I've gifted you the city
in-game, once you accept (assuming you are OK with the plan) I will
need to gift you the worker also.

Strong Badia has two workers, and next turn will have two pre-chopped
forests. So next turn I would like to gift it to you, then gift you
both the workers. You can finish both the chops and then gift the
city and workers back to me on turn 100. If you log in before me next
turn, you can go ahead and request the gift of the city from me. That
way we won't have to wait for each other to log on as much.

Thanks,
Daniel

From dsplaisted:

I've now gifted you the worker for Root Canal, you should be able to
finish the chop of the forest he is on this turn, and finish the chop
of the forest 1S of Root Canal next turn.

From dsplaisted:

OK, it's turn 99 and I've now offered the gift of the city of Strong
Badia. Once you accept I'll gift the two workers and you should be
able to finish both forest chops.

Next turn, if you can move both workers by Strong Badia to the Sheep
and start a Pasture before you gift the city to me, I won't have to
wait for you to gift me the workers before ending turn. Next turn in
Root Canal, you can likewise start building a road on the tile 1 NE of
the city.

I appreciate all of this. I think these will be the last cities I
want to swap for a while.

From dsplaisted:

OK, I've gifted you the two workers at Strong Badia to chop the forests.

To dsplaisted:

Sorry for the delays during the turns. I don't have a lot of time during the day anymore, and mh isn't around to cover when I'm not here.

We're settling a couple cities and it would be nice to get a cheap granary. Do you know the numbers for building a granary? Does it only require a single chop?

From dsplaisted:

Yes, a Granary is 60 hammers and I get +100% production on it, so a
single chop will be enough.

Note that when you gift a city you lose all stored food and hammers.
So it's best to set it up so the forest is pre-chopped on the turn you
found the city, so you can gift it to me immediately and not waste any
growth/production.

Don't worry about the delays, it's inevitable that it's going to take
longer when you have to gift the city, the other person has to accept
it, then you have to gift the worker, then the other person has to
chop with the worker.

To dsplaisted:

Hi,
I am back and had a look around.
I offered you back your two cities and have initiated the sheep pasture and the road as requested.

mh to Kodii:

Hi Kodii,
I had a look around and finished the turn. I offered both cities back to Daniel.
Looks like we are in good shape.
Do you have a quick list of actions for our units?
Or are you just too busy?
I will be away from 18.9. - 1.10. with no access to civ and probably also with no access to the internet.
Should we maybe get a third guy on board, in case you are too overloaded to play the turns in that period?
Or do we trust Daniel enough to act as "remote government" and log in for us and play our turns?

I see we are on our way to Theology, probably grabbing a religion. I changed BH to work a cottage instead of the spices. Forge still in 3turns, but Theology one turn earlier.
Regoarraras paid his last 10g to us for the HG deal.
We got Calendar this turn and can now improve the Spices at BH (urgent) and the silks at Love.
Also the wines at CoT need improving. Looks like we are short of workers.

As a little compensation from Daniel for all the forges he could move a worker down from Wolf359 to the forested tile near his planned pig city and gift it to us, so we can chop that forest into Moai.
Do you know what is the latest on Daniel's Moai? Is he finished?

Also, regoarrar has declared on Brian and Daniel.
We might have to consider DoWing as well to fulfil our alliance?

[Kodii]

**More action**

dsplaisted to 3Some:

Leptis now has one warrior in it on defense. If the Galley you gifted
continues west, I would be able to attack the city Amphibiously on
turn 99 (with a spear and a Skirmisher). Perhaps he'll have a Longbow
there by then, and if not your immortal can probably handle the one
warrior, but we'll see.

shadyforce to 3Some:

I pulled my Immortal back because I didn't want to antagonise him when I was giving my only horse (and hence the only natural counter to Numids) to MH/Kodii. He was also asking about my Immortal, specifically asking if he was just scouting or not. My Immortal would also take a good few turns (because of all the forests) through territory he can see to get to the city which would give him time to boost the defence if he felt threatened.

My workboat travelling along his coast has found every single city of his defended by a single warrior. I doubt he will have a longbow there unless he feels threatened. It will also take my Immortal a good few turns to even get to the city because of all the forest - plenty of time for him to reinforce if he feels threatened. Which is why I think it's best to keep my Immortal back home. Hopefully that will maximise the chance he'll have no more than a warrior in Leptis and you can boat him succesfully.

Instead, I can use my Immortal (as well as my soon to be built HA and a nearby axe/spear pair) and make a run for his other nearby city). We can attack simultaniously or one before the other, whatever we think will maximise the chance of success. Unfortunately I don't have line of sight into his other city and it's on size 4 so can instantly whip a Longbow. There is a fair chance the attack will fail, but I'll annoy him at least and probably pillage his horse.

dsplaisted to 3Some:

OK, sounds good. Did you get line of site into his capital yet?
Also, can you tell if he's settled across the water southeast of his
capital?

Do you have plans for your workboat? It occurred to me that if you
were to send it east along the southern edge of the map, it might
arrive at the right time to be used for one of my new cities. I might
be able to build you a workboat closer to your territory to compensate
for it. I'll have to look at the game to see if this would work
though.

shadyforce to 3Some:

Yes, I can see into Carthage. It, along with all the rest of his cities, are guarded by a single warrior. No, he has not settled across the channel, though his borders do control some tiles there.

My workboat was heading to the crabs for that Lighthouse city spot north of Albuquerquey. Yes, I'll send him to your southern city if you build me a replacement, if you think that will work. I would need the replacement WB in place in 11 turns but don't worry if you'd be a turn or two late. I'll lose some food but you'll presumably get a WB to your place a lot quicker so it sounds like a net gain.

Also, are you going to culturally control that crab in 11 turns? If so, I'll rethink my decision to settle there.

I don't think a melee attack on Hippo will work since they will get there too slowly giving him time to beef up defence. There is a hill tile in Rego's land I can attack directly from with mounted units (unless Rego closes borders), so I could put a HA and 2 Immortals there and attack in 3 turns. I could also make a run for Rego's city. He has a spear but it's guarding a worker on a different tile and is off the road. If he has just an axe in the city then I could possibly raze his new city. Unfortunately, that is not the city that just built the Hanging Gardens. Maybe I'll leave Rego until T119.

dsplaisted to 3Some:

Sounds good on the workboat trade. Where is your workboat as of turn
95 in relation to ZPV's capital?

I think Albuquerque's borders will expand on turn 109 (14 turns from
now). I can probably have a workboat done in Albuquerque around turn
102.

As far as Leptis goes, I think it will grow to size 2 by the time I
attack it. In that case I'm tempted to keep it, what do you think?

shadyforce to 3Some:

I think I've parked the workboat 2SE or 1S, 1SE of his capital.

When are you going to have the Statues in Albuquerque?

Leptis would be hard for you to defend. You would need to ferry over some more defence quickly enough and a road over to The Castle will be needed too so I can supply reinforcements if/when required. If Hippo is succesfully razed, it becomes a lot more worthwhile as it forces back his territory claim in the region and he has no horse or metal to retaliate with.

dsplaisted to 3Some:

The statues are 1 turn from completion, but I'm spending the next 2
turns in Anarchy, so they should be finished on turn 99.

If ZPV only has warriors in all his cities, will it really be that
hard to defend Leptis? By the time he can build some attackers, I'll
probably be able to be pumping defenders out of Albuquerque.

shadyforce to 3Some:

Hippo has a Numidian Cavalry in the city and he has a warrior on a hill in Rego's land that can see my mounted units moving to the pre-staging tiles. Will have to see next turn if attack is still viable.

dsplaisted to 3Some:

As far as the attack on Leptis goes, I can attack on turn 100 with an
Axe and a Spear. This seems better than attacking on turn 99 with a
Spear and an Skirmisher (especially since the Skirmisher has only 1xp-
he was an unplanned build to deal with barbs). With 25% fortify
bonus, 25% city defense bonus, and 20% cultural defense, the Warrior
will have an effective strength of 3.4.

shadyforce to 3Some:

Ok, well I can be in position to attack Hippo on T98. Do you want me to delay for 2 turns or will I attack him early?

dsplaisted to 3Some:

I don't know exactly where Hippo is, so I don't know how you attacking
it would affect Leptis. But I think you should probably go ahead and
attack if you are pretty sure you'll be successful.

shadyforce to 3Some:

Hi, I've moved into position but ZPV has three Numidian Cavalry in the area: one in the city, one near Rego's Fairfield that can get to the city in time and another south west of Hippo guarding a worker in neutral territory, which can also get to the city in time but also can get to Leptis in 2 turns. It seems unlikely I can take the city unless he is very careless, but at least it will hopefully keep those Numids distracted and away from Leptis.

Hippo is 5N and 1W of Leptis btw. His one and only source of horse is 3N and 2W of Leptis.

shadyforce to 3Some:

Hi Daniel,

Just to give you an update:

The attack was a great success. Both warrior and Numid killed with minor health loss and the city is razed. My third uninjured Immortal has grabbed a worker that was chopping a forest next to the city (I'm going to try and keep him). There is another worker just SE of the city ruins. He was idle, presumably in position to build a road to Leptis.

ZPV's second Numid is 2 tiles north of the capital. It can have a pop at my injured Immortal / HA stack on the city ruins or at my uninjured Immortal on the forest with the worker. He has a promotion available as well so he may well win, but I can probably clean up afterwards.

His third Numid (the one that was guarding a worker on the road between his core and Hippo, and west of Leptis) is unaccounted for. It is possible he is on one of those forests north or north-west of Leptis. He may be able to attack my injured units as well but if he does so, that means him not going to garrison Leptis. Hopefully, he will try and guard his second unprotected worker who can't actually get out of range of my mounted units on the next turn.

shadyforce to 3Some:

It's a shame about the axe. I would probably have kept the promo for healing afterwards as well. Unlucky.

What now? Sue for peace, keep at war to keep him distracted, advance further?

ZPV has a massive power rating. I have no idea what he's doing with that power if his cities are so underdefended. But I reckon I could be facing a large retaliatory strike.

Us to 3Some:

Regoarrar has declared on both of you.
How do you want to handle this?
We are of course prepared to fulfil our 3some obligations and declare on regoarrar as well, however, we have no idea where he is (only met a scout) and are not really geared up for war.
Let us know.

dsplaisted to 3Some:

As far as I'm concerned there's no reason to declare on him ATM. He's
sent me an email offering peace. I'll let you know the details later
(my Internet is down, using phone for email).

[Kodii]

mh to Kodii:

Hi Kodii,
have a think where our next city should go (after Pink Dot). The settler at Kobe is ready next turn.

Either in our backyard south (somewhere around city C&D)
Towards Broker (Border Cities) (hard to defend)
The land east and north of Kobe is really juicy.
Or in the eastern "Kodii" belt between Kobe and Love at Last.
City 1 is not a good spot at the moment, but would need to be settled eventually to prevent Ruff culture encroachment.

Kodii to mh:

I think the eastern belt might be crucial. The land north/east of Kobe will be difficult if we are cut off by Ruff. I think I recall a wines spot in that belt, but I cannot remember for sure whether or not there was food nearby. I will do an ingame look soon.

Also, things are finally starting to slow down, and I hope that by the end of this week, I will have everything sorted out and ready to participate 100% again.

Kodii to mh:

I played part of the turn.

BH completed it's forge and has resumed an axeman. We may want to change that.

Kobe completed its settler and is currently set on Research. That needs to be changed.

Pink Dot will be founded in two turns. We should give Daniel the head's up for the swap. Our worker has finished prechopping the forest and needs to be in place for the swap.

I don't think I have missed anything else, but if you have questions, just ask. I should be up for another 3 or so hours.

mh to Kodii:

Hi,
attached an updated dot map.
The Pink Dot location is already pencilled in as given.

As you suggested the new Settler should go to Black Dot, grabbing clams and Wine and overall good land. I kept the warrior in the area.
Steiner, the worker (en-route to LaL) is on the same tile as the new settler. We could divert him to Black Dot to do a Daniel city swap there and leave Love at Last alone for a few more turns.
I am in favor of that.

I set Kobe on an axeman. This is to allow Kobe to grow to size 3 (only 2 turns away) and then we can whip that 3rd pop point into another settler/worker.
After the axe, I set it to finish a worker (chop on the way), as we are short of them.

I also pencilled in a Kobe replacement city spot to the east of Kobe, grabbing the cows and Marble plus the clams.
Kobe itself will be suffering from Ruffs culture eventually.
However, I feel we should focus more on cities around our core, next.
I think Pink Dot should take over Settler production after we chopped the area around Kobe.

Kodii to mh:

I like that plan. How do you suppose we "get rid" of Kobe? It will be a shame to lose our culture on those tiles (or is it kept?)

mh to Kodii:

I think the New Kobe spot will be settled very late, after we filled our back yard.
Then we could ask Ruff to raze it, maybe. He will be interested in the western bank of that river, I think.

Another issue to think about is the future of the NUTA.
I don't suppose we end this game in a happy 6team alliance.
And once the ongoing and planned wars are played out, the alliance will have to shift, I think.
Our 3some could be a competing alliance, with Daniel and us building up our empires as part of the NUTA.
I am a bit worried though about Brian if the UTA is seriously attacking him. We cannot help him in the mid term.

[Kodii]

**This post contains several independent conversations**

dsplaisted to 3Some:

Hi shady,

I have a work boat which I will be able to gift you next turn in exchange for the one which you will gift me south of my capital. Your workboat should be south of a barb city around now, continue to head east and then north when you get a chance.

I will also finish a Skirmisher next turn (104) in Albuquerque, which I will be able to gift to you on turn 106 in repayment for the Galley.

Keep us appraised of the military situation you are facing. With enough forewarning I may be able to come to your aid, if need be.

To dsplaisted:

Hi Daniel,
we offered the city of Constantinople in game.
We would like you to finish a Granary there.
The worker is in place to be gifted as well.
I will check civstats, to see when you are available.

dsplaisted to 3Some:

Hi guys,

I just finished a Confucian missionary in ChironBetaPrime. Would you like me to send him your way? Towards which city?

Also, btw, please do NOT gift me Theology until I have bulbed Civil Service

Us to 3Some:

Hi,
we got a natural Buddhism spread this turn and of course Christianity + a Christian missionary.
I have not spoken to Kodii yet, but I guess we want Christianity as our state religion.
I assume you have cities in your civ that could make god use of that missionary?

Ah, so you are bulbing CS. I was wondering (see other eMail).
When do you bulb?

mh to Kodii:

Hi Kodii,

you saw the good news of us landing Christianity in Love at Last and the natural spread of Buddhism to Kobe.
I actually suggest we revolt to Christianity this turn and then to Org rel & Bureaucracy in another 5 turns.
Revolting now would be good, as it is always better to revolt with a smaller empire (less losses).
We also have not founded Clams & Wine yet. Constantinople is with Daniel at the moment, so not suffering.
I guess we will research Music next. So we can wait for Brian to finish Drama next turn and go Music with all pre-req discounts right from the start.

What do you think?

Kodii to mh:

I'm happy with that!

In terms of tech, I don't think we need to do Drama/Music. You can discuss with the others.

mh to Kodii:

Hi Kodii,
I would like to discuss a few things with you.

With the ongoing and upcoming wars between the UTA and the NUTA, I believe neither alliance will survive very long.
Once a couple of civs are crippled, old alliances will break up and new cooperations will form.
We will not cross the finish line as a happy 6civ NUTA.
I would like us to be prepared for that.
For a start I would like to pass this idea onto the 3some, which I feel we should be fully committed to.
It is good that both Daniel and us have the chance to improve our lands and infrastructure.
I just hope that Brian will not fall too far behind.

Eventually, the 3some will split from the NUTA and keep going on by themselves or team up/cooperate with others.
In preparation of that, we should put more effort into diplomacy again.
I would like to talk to Broker about a border agreement and a NAP.
And renew our ties with regoarrar and the Lins.
I am not sure what goes on with sunrise, he appears weakened and might fall victim to Krill.

I am a bit wary about Krill. I guess we mutually saved our necks with the forming of the NUTA, but I don't want to see him getting too strong taking a lot of good land from the Lins and sunrise, while the rest of the NUTA supplies him with cash and techs.
Sure, it is a win win situation at the moment, but at some point, some members will get more out of it than other.

Of course this is all still a bit in the future and I would like us to get to Feudalism and Guilds first before breaking away. (for our UU)
But I would really like us to start improving our military, having on city on units all the time (BH to start with, since it has a barracks).

Let me have your thoughts.
I will try to get some drafts ready in the next 24hours.

Kodii to mh:

I agree with your prediction regarding the future of the game. We really need to ensure that we stay united with Daniel and Brian. In terms of foreign affairs, I also think it is a good idea to reopen the lines of communication with the others.

What are your thoughts beyond the NUTA? If we are heading towards Guilds, we might as well use our UU to our full advantage. Maybe take out Ruff? I am tempted to take a shot at Broker, but it's only really a thought.

[Kodii]

**This post contains several independent conversations**

From ZPV:

Hi mostly harmless and Kodii,

Thanks for your offer of open borders. I'm not rejecting immediately, I just need some time to convince myself that you're not trying to screw me over, or similar. Recent events would have me somewhat paranoid. :-)

To ZPV:

Hi,
I fully understand.
We have only sparse information about that particular conflict and so far lack sufficient map data. So we would not even know where to screw you. :-)
All we have seen from you so far, was a very early workboat, which indicates we are far removed from each other.
Lets keep the line of communications open.

To dsplaisted:

Hi,
I offered Roundabout to Daniel for a granary (and requested Machinery).
If possible try to gift him the worker as well (sits on top of the pre-chopped forest, with movement points ready) this turn ( I did not end it).

From dsplaisted:

I will be on a plane tonight but I've posted the following in my thread:

I am on a plane flight tonight and could use a small bit of help from a lurker. I've played everything I need to for this turn except m_h/Kodii are going to gift me a city and then a worker with a pre-chopped forest, and I am going to chop a cheap expansive granary for them in the city. I've requested the gift of the city from them, so they should be able to log in, gift the city, and then gift the worker. Then someone will need to log in as me and set the city to build a Granary, finish the chop with the worker, and end turn.

So hopefully someone will be able to log in as me and chop the granary.

mh to Kodii:

Hi Kodii,

Christ natural spread to Roundabout.
You still need to rename Constantinople.
Where does the Christ missionary go? BH? But it will be on units I guess for a while.
Which city would be good for missionary duty after Org Rel? Relativity?

Also sunrise accepted OB with no scouting clause. see attached.

Kodii to mh:

BH is appropriate as it is approaching happy cap. Otherwise, we could send the missionary to our missionary pump. However, I think it would be more important to establish and set up a military pump first. We should hammer out the details regarding the future of each of our cities and what we want them to produce.

Krill to NUTA:

OK, so the war has been declared (by them). Things look somewhat interesting, with 3LB, CG and Guerilla 2, a vulture and a spear in Taco, and possibly another longbow before we get to attack. They also have another 3WE,32LB, 2Cats, vulture, spear, and warrior NE of Hun, and a further vulture, spear WE and chariot NW of a third city, all centred around 1 very important grassland tile. I suspect they also have an extra 4-5 units, mostly cats, hidden in the fog.

We have 6WE, 6HA, 4 cats and 3 Chariots that can be split between attacking Taco and attacking any of their troops should they try to relieve Taco. We also have a further 3WE and 5 cats ready to flank the Lins reinforcements, and even more WE arriving every turn. After negoiting with the Lins about how to structure movement in the war, I think I have a method of forcing them to retreat their offensive units from Taco, and giving them a chance to get a few extra Longbows into Taco, which will get slaughtered by the obscene amount of catapults I have.

Sunrise has been gifting units to the Lins, which explains the slope of their power chart. The question I can't answer all that well is what Broker has up here. I've seen a lone HA belonging to Broker up here, but 1 HA doesn't explain his power graph either, so I suspect he has more units hidden in the fog, or working their way up. I'm going to have to play this war carefully, but so long as I'm appropriately cautious I can't see a reason why I can't capture Taco and hold the line there. I will almost certainly not be able to press any further forward though.

So I suppose my request is that the rest of you go and hammer regoarrarr into the ground. He won't get reinforcements off anyone for as long as this war is ongoing, so now is definately the best time to break his back. I've already explained to Shadyforce one way to pull off the attack and take everything south and east of regoarrarrs' capital using the culture bomb. If you lot pull it off you should have alot of land to expand into, and the UTA should be pretty much broken.

dsplaisted to 3Some:

ZPV has a Trireme 2W of Albuquerque. It can't pillage any seafood nearby since they are all on ocean squares, I think the worst thing in can do is blockade one of our cities, and potentially sink a galley. I'm going to build a Trireme in Isengard in response, but if we want to kill the Trireme we should have two of them. Do you want to build a Trireme of your own so we can do so? When and where would you finish it?

My Trireme will probably finish in Isengard on turn 109.

shadyforce to 3Some:

I'll check when I get home. I can probably build one in The Factory fairly quickly. Does his Trireme have a promotion?

shadyforce to 3Some:

I can hit the Trireme, on his current tile, on T112.

dsplaisted to 3Some:

Sounds good. I will finish a Trireme in Albuquerque the same turn, so between the two of us we should be able to sink it.

shadyforce to 3Some:

Hi guys,

Daniel:
- I gifted you the WB. Apologies for the delay. He has a movement point left so you can build the nets this turn I think.
- My Trireme is on its way. I can attack the turn after next. I'll attack first if you like since you need to have a trireme more than me.
- Can you send me CS once you bulb it? I need to start building a mace or two for my Rego stack + Bureacracy will help my uber-capital a lot. .
- You're going to nick that crab tile off me in a turn or two. I'm going to quickly build a library and theatre to try and get it back. What's your culture per turn in Albuquerque? I might have to use my Great Artist here instead.
- What's your ETA to Engineering?

MH/Kodii:
- Thanks for Theology. If nothing else, my score is more respectable.
- Are you doing Paper at the moment? Or did you stick to Feudalism?

UTA have both Paper pre-reqs so they may be racing to Lib right now, though they don't have near as much money floating around as the NUTA do. But ZPV has a monstrous GNP right now. Much bigger than mine or Daniel's (don't know what your GNP is MH/Kodii.) But at least it means he isn't in war mode.

Brian.

PS. Kidding about the Great Artist.

Us to 3Some:

Hi,
we are sticking with Feudalism for now.
ZPV's and our GNP are about the same (+-10gpt)

dsplaisted to 3Some:

I used the merchant on CS, but I need to research the rest of it. It is supposed to finish next turn (Turn 111). I'm getting 6 culture per turn in Albuquerque. Eventually I'll want to build a Library there too, but right now it's focused on military builds.

Shady, do you still want a Missionary? ZPV sank my galley, so I'd have to send him over land.

I'm getting really nervous about Imhotep. He's got 5 Praetorians, 5 War Elephants, an Axe and two Impis at Thangorodrim. If he was playing along with the NUTA, I'd really think he'd be sending those towards regoarrarr. As it is I'm worried he'll attack Wolf 359.

shadyforce to 3Some:

I have no urgent need for a missionary so you can delay him for now if you have things of higher priority.

It would help if Imhotep emailed more often but I'm pretty sure he's sending that army towards Rego with the attack date some time around the T120 mark. He told me his NAP lasts until T118 which he hasn't extended and that he wants to attack shortly after that. He told me his stack is on the move soon. I think he wants me to build some cats for him but I'm not sure. I would certainly be happier if he was bringing at least some cats himself. I've given him directions and the general plan involving the culture bomb.

It's certainly possible he's outright lying to me for the sake of a sneak attack on your city, but tbh I don't think so.

In fact, I think that if you guys have units you can spare, to follow Imhotep's stack if/when it starts marching towards Rego. Alternatively, Daniel if you could build another Galley and ferry accross a couple of units (2 elephants for example) to help deal with the expected nuisance attack from ZPV that Rego will probably ask of him, that might free up some of my units to do more damage to Rego.

I'm hopeful for this attack, becaue unlike Krill's war where there will be 2 massive armies at a stalemate, the culture bomb plan will open up Rego's territtory and with enough units, any of 4 cities can be razed within 3 turns of declaring, one of whom is his capital. In fact Krill reckons one of his core cities (the hanging gardens city) will actually be able to be attacked on the turn we declare.

shadyforce to 3Some:

Slight problem. If you take that crab tile in the next turn or the turn after then my Trireme won't be able to move directly to ZPV's trireme, delaying when we can kill him.