[SPOILERS] Team EggHeads: DMOC and TeddyKGB (Now Lurker-Friendly!)

[TeddyKGB]

@DMOC it was just random thoughts while waitng to chat.

To all our Lurkers (if there is any): T0 will be finished by team EggHeads within next hour, I guess. Updates will follow. Place your bets on our opening if you like.

[DMOC]

Turn 0 - 4000 BC

After seeing the results of some of our simulations and the initial scouting move, we've decided to settle in place and research Hunting -> Animal Husbandry. We were debating on an opening that involved researching Fishing first, but I decided against it because it delays our first settler by 4 turns and only gains us 2 turns in technology, and it gets us behind in producing warriors. We were also considering settling on top of the plains hill. While that's slightly faster than settling in place and isn't as bad as it looks (we waste a few water tiles) it's still behind on commerce so much and we'll need that fish to help our research. Thus, settling in place seems to be the way to go. In tune with our naming scheme, Carnegie Mellon was founded in place and we started on a worker, using the 3H tile to take advantage of Expansive's bonus.

I'll post a full capital and worker micromanagement plan within the next 24 hours (or TeddyKGB will do it). For now it's pretty simple as the capital always works the 3H tile to get the worker out ASAP. Our tech path is tentatively set at Hunting -> Animal Husbandry -> Mining -> Fishing -> Bronze Working -> Agriculture -> Pottery. (We have Fishing after Mining since our simulations showed that getting Fishing earlier wouldn't help us.) Our settler should be ready on turn 32, with the second city founded in the turn 32-35 range. I'll also write up some ideas for our short-term and long-term strategy.

Also, my resolution should make these easier to read now.

Demographics before & after.





Our rank is 6th in MFG, so 6 of the 9 teams that settled in place are likely working a 3H forest. I'm convinced that these starts are very identical to each other.

The land as we know it. The screenshot doesn't show it, but I clicked on the "Hunting" tab so we're definitely researching that technology. There are floodplains 6-6-6-9 of the capital.





Next to discuss: Scouting move. I suggest moving 1, and then 2. In the grand scheme of things, let's spend a few turns exploring the south, then double back by exploring the more fertile north. Keep in mind that on turn 25, we'll get our second border pop in the capital.

EDIT:

-The table of contents at the start of this thread has been updated.
-We should update the general information spreadsheet. TeddyKGB, did you add in colors? I'm color-blind so I'm probably not the best candidate to pick them.
-One thing to note is that we should consider building 2 quick workboats after our second settler for scouting the coast.

[dick76]

I currently do not have much time to write in the forum but read carefully your posts and I'm over the discussion. I see that you know more than me about the planning process and the use of resources in the game, so I trust you for their deployment. This month I'll be a little busy and I can not actively participate, but will be included when deemed important. I would never up early to fish but sure is nice to have such a healthy hobby.

[TeddyKGB]

@dick76
Thank you for reading. This month wouldnt be much action anyway, I guess.
We are set on our plan, that could be changed on T20 after AH finished or if something unexpected happens.
We can have a contact earlier I guess and start Diplomacy. It could be fun.

@DMOC
Thx for posting turn report and screenshots with signs.
Just one little thing to add:

We can calculate total land on T3 more accurately, but for now lets assume we are on a map with 210 land tiles per team.

No colors yet, I'll get to it.
EDIT: docs updated.

What is your opinion on how we should scout in general, considering capital borders expand on T25 and our warrior will be done on T24?
Or is it too early to think about?

[DMOC]

I currently do not have much time to write in the forum but read carefully your posts and I'm over the discussion. I see that you know more than me about the planning process and the use of resources in the game, so I trust you for their deployment. This month I'll be a little busy and I can not actively participate, but will be included when deemed important. I would never up early to fish but sure is nice to have such a healthy hobby.

Okay, just be aware that we value your feedback, so feel free to chime in when you can.

We can calculate total land on T3 more accurately, but for now lets assume we are on a map with 210 land tiles per team.

No colors yet, I'll get to it.
EDIT: docs updated.

What is your opinion on how we should scout in general, considering capital borders expand on T25 and our warrior will be done on T24?
Or is it too early to think about?

Thanks, I will check them after work today. 210 land tiles seems pretty large, that's equivalent to having 10 completely landlocked cities with full BFCs. Hopefully there will be no early rushes.

As far as scouting goes, we should avoid scouting tiles that our capital's borders will pop. That's why I suggest south, then southwest, then west, then northwest, then north (for a while), and finally northwest. Once barbarians start appearing we should consider only moving our scout 1 flatland (non-oasis) space at a time.

----

As far as scouting goes, do either of you have suggestions for the scouting move? I keep saying 1-2 but can be convinced to move elsewhere.

[Dhalphir]

I won't be posting that much Teddy/DMOC/Dick.

I'm not even remotely close to your level of knowledge and expertise particularly with regards to simming.

however I always try to settle in place in my own games unless a move would get me an absurdly better capital. It is worth taking a capital that might be slightly less than optimal to be able to start working on your techs and production a full turn sooner, and I imagine all the more so in an MP game where you aren't likely to get as far through the tech tree as in a SP game.

[Dhalphir]

It's never too early to think about scouting, too. The sooner you have a firm idea of where that second city might be going, the better.

[TeddyKGB]

@DMOC
Although we decide our path, I'm kinda full of crazy ideas and stuck with domestic planning.
Think, I find a way to improve it a bit, but not sure if you like it.
I'll sim it later today to be sure.

And another crazy thought.
What would you say to a guy who seriously consider go worker->scout?
Its kinda gamble and it could totally failed, but It's an option to consider. I have no idea how many tiles away capitals are from each other and what is configuration of teams on the map in general.

Worker>scout or worker>warrior decision connected with scouting pattern we chose in general, imo.
Are we concentrate on early contacts with 7FIN civs? Which way we should go to have a chance to meet someone?
With 2 scouts early we can go opposite directions and once we made contact we could try to meet next player faster through diplomacy with our contact to ask for direction or get a tip on an animal location.

To get an extra beaker per turn on basic techs like mining and fishing we had to contact 4 civs with this tech. Later in game it'll become better.
But we need so many basic techs so we probably will stay behind on a tech tree for some time and could use a little boost on beakers.

I have no knowledge about how many neighbors we can reach in time to benefit from it early on this map.
For all I know we could be isolated or all teams on our landmass could be one direction from us and second scout wont help at all. He could meet a bear right after leaves our borders. So as I said, its a gamble.

What do you think about it?
Should we consider go scout after worker?
Should we prioritize early contacts by existing scout, go worker>warrior and use him to explore our close land?
Btw, if we plant city#2 to overlap pigs in our culture border, we dont need escort settler unless we suggest someone could reach our borders in time with their first warrior.

I'll update my WB sim file with new fogreading and post screen shot with borders expanded on t25 after we play our T3.

And about early rushes, I was gonna post some crazy scenarios but thats enough text for one post already.

Lol, I was gonna just quick reply to you when I start it. Sorry for a wall of text, hope I'll post some improved domestic soon. There will be pics.

@Dhalphir
Thanks for reading.
For 2nd city location we will consider all good locations, but right now I like one of 4 tiles that will share Pigs and be at the 3rd culture ring of our capital at the same time.
We'll know more on T20, when AH done; and on T25 when our borders expand. And any turn scout could reviale something interesting.

[DMOC]

I won't be posting that much Teddy/DMOC/Dick.

I'm not even remotely close to your level of knowledge and expertise particularly with regards to simming.

however I always try to settle in place in my own games unless a move would get me an absurdly better capital. It is worth taking a capital that might be slightly less than optimal to be able to start working on your techs and production a full turn sooner, and I imagine all the more so in an MP game where you aren't likely to get as far through the tech tree as in a SP game.

Yes, I agree that you should settle in place as a general rule. If I was teaching a Civ4 newbie how to play, for instance, I would always instruct him to settle in place until he's competent enough to win on, say, Monarch difficulty.

This game is rather unique among multiplayer games in that the focus is really on economy and diplomacy, not military, which was another reason why I leaned towards settling in place.

@DMOC
Although we decide our path, I'm kinda full of crazy ideas and stuck with domestic planning.
Think, I find a way to improve it a bit, but not sure if you like it.
I'll sim it later today to be sure.

And another crazy thought.
What would you say to a guy who seriously consider go worker->scout?
Its kinda gamble and it could totally failed, but It's an option to consider. I have no idea how many tiles away capitals are from each other and what is configuration of teams on the map in general.

Worker>scout or worker>warrior decision connected with scouting pattern we chose in general, imo.
Are we concentrate on early contacts with 7FIN civs? Which way we should go to have a chance to meet someone?
With 2 scouts early we can go opposite directions and once we made contact we could try to meet next player faster through diplomacy with our contact to ask for direction or get a tip on an animal location.

To get an extra beaker per turn on basic techs like mining and fishing we had to contact 4 civs with this tech. Later in game it'll become better.
But we need so many basic techs so we probably will stay behind on a tech tree for some time and could use a little boost on beakers.

I have no knowledge about how many neighbors we can reach in time to benefit from it early on this map.
For all I know we could be isolated or all teams on our landmass could be one direction from us and second scout wont help at all. He could meet a bear right after leaves our borders. So as I said, its a gamble.

What do you think about it?
Should we consider go scout after worker?
Should we prioritize early contacts by existing scout, go worker>warrior and use him to explore our close land?
Btw, if we plant city#2 to overlap pigs in our culture border, we dont need escort settler unless we suggest someone could reach our borders in time with their first warrior.

I'll update my WB sim file with new fogreading and post screen shot with borders expanded on t25 after we play our T3.

And about early rushes, I was gonna post some crazy scenarios but thats enough text for one post already.

Lol, I was gonna just quick reply to you when I start it. Sorry for a wall of text, hope I'll post some improved domestic soon. There will be pics.

@Dhalphir
Thanks for reading.
For 2nd city location we will consider all good locations, but right now I like one of 4 tiles that will share Pigs and be at the 3rd culture ring of our capital at the same time.
We'll know more on T20, when AH done; and on T25 when our borders expand. And any turn scout could reviale something interesting.

Some comments:

1. By all means, continue your (excellent!) early-game planning. I'll be posting a detailed plan based on your T32 settler, and you can revise it if needed.

2. Going worker -> scout is not a bad choice, but the reason why I would be against it is in case we end up with some issues with barbarians. Even though this is monarch, we have to remember that there's probably more land than usual compared to a single player game, and humans don't start off the game with "bonus" units like the high-level AIs do. Thus, to be safe, we should assume that barbarians will be like they are in emperor-difficulty. According to this post, barbarian animals will spawn starting after turn 5, and up to turn 25. Thus, from turn 26 and onwards, barbarian humans will spawn!

3. Related to the previous point, I mentioned that since we can expect there to be a large ocean, we should seriously consider building a workboat that can help explore the coast, perhaps in the separate direction as the scout so we can get circumnavigation. If we don't do that, then yes consider building an early scout. But if we have horses, chariots would be a better bet.

4. I'm pretty sure we're not isolated.


By the way, the turn seems to be up, so I'll go ahead and play it and then post the turn report. Since no one seemed to object to 1-2, I guess that's what we'll do.

[DMOC]

Turn 1 - 3960 BC

Only one team, Team Care Bears - Yuufo / Bisons, was left to settle their capital, and they did so this turn. They are Financial and Imperialistic, so perhaps they settled on top of a plains hill to get the extra hammer for their settlers and Fast Workers? The thing to note is that the max MFG is still 4, so they are not working 5 whole hammers.



Anyway, the scout moved 1 then 2...



...and revealed wheat. So now we have to insert Agriculture somewhere in the tech path, assuming we settle a city down there. Notice that the wheat is correctly on a plains tile, not a tundra one (the graphics confused me for a second). We're definitely on the southern end of the map, though it's toroidal so perhaps we can meet the northern civilizations via the seas.

There are a couple of interesting things the scout revealed.

1. There's coast to the south, definitely part of some larger ocean.
2. There's a fourth freshwater tile I've identified by the sign. Let's pray for a river instead of a lake ...
3. There's snow already here. Given how crappy snow tiles are, we might consider settling a city on top of it sometime down the road, which can use the deer, wheat, and hopefully some seafood.

Now, where should the scout move next? The good news is that the south looks like it's almost completely explored. There's a forested tundra tile 2-2-2 of the scout. Our capital on turn 25 will pop borders which will reveal more southern tiles as well as additional water tiles in that canal. Some scouting options:

Option A: On turn 2, move the scout 2-3 (on wheat). On turn 3, move the scout 4-1. On turn 4, move the scout 7-7.
Option B: On turn 2, move the scout 1-1 (on deer). On turn 3, move the scout 7 and reevaluate there (that tile looks like it's flatland, so we should get an extra movement point).

Option A reveals more to the south, but option B gets the northern parts revealed sooner. Personally, I'm more inclined to choose option A, but I'd be fine either way, or with another suggestion.

Keep in mind that barbarian animals will start spawning after turn 5, so at the moment we don't need to worry about defensive bonus, and should be concerned with getting the maximum number of tiles visible.