[SPOILERS] Krill - PB15 - Khan supports involuntary euthanasia providers

[Bowsling]

I'm gonna dedlurk this for shits. Don't expect much out of me.

[Krill]

I don't listen to ded lurkers anyway. Aren't many people that post anything useful.

[Ichabod]

If I wasn't already spoiled, I'd ded lurk this thread just because of that comment.

[Krill]

Can't see my opening screenshot anymore...


QWill just have to go from memory then.

[Krill]

WOOHOO SERDOA I LOVE YOU!

[Krill]

• Boudicea, [AGG/CHM]
  
• Hammurabi, [AGG/ORG]
  
• Tokugawa, [AGG/PRO] 1
  
• Cyrus, [CHM/IMP]
  
• Saladin, [PRO/SPI] 3
  
• Fredrick, [ORG/PHI]
  
• Stalin, [AGG/IND] 4
  
• Lincoln, [CHM/PHI] 5
  
• Genghis, [AGG/IMP]

• Celts, Hunting/Myst, Dun (altered), Gallic warrior 2
  
• Babylon, Wheel/Agri, Garden, Bowman
  
• Japan, Fishing/Wheel, Pagoda, Samurai
  
• Persia, Hunting/Agri, Apothecary, Immortal
  
• Arabia, Agri/Myst, Madrassa (altered), Camel archer
  
• Germany, Hunting/Mining, Assembly plant, Kanone (new)
  
• Russia, Hunting/Mining, Research Institute (altered), Cossack
  
• America, Agri/Fishing, Mall (new), Minuteman (new)
  
• Korea - Mysticism/Mining, Seowan, Hwacha
  

So, that means I should have the option of choosing from 4 leaders and 8 civs at worst. That means that I should get, at worst, something like Cyrus or Genghis, a leader I'm actually fairly happy to have.

[Bowsling]

I don't listen to ded lurkers anyway. Aren't many people that post anything useful.

I'll take that as a challenge.

[Krill]

Who do I have to abuse to get a starting screenshot around here.

[Krill]

Actually, let me explain this start a little. Because of the fish, and most of the tiles being forested, I actually don't have much to do with a worker after pasturing the pig. That's why I basically need to to start Hunting/Mining, to go BW first so the worker can then just chop out a second worker (likely timed growth to size 2 to finish before the chop completes, and then immediately slave away that second pop, then potentially overflow into a work boat). That fish is a pain because I have to find 30 hammers to improve my second resource unlike pretty much anyone else I'm guessing, and I lose so many turns doing that that I think I'm losing something like 30-40 food waiting on those hammers (ie almost 2 pop), and I'm then down in warriors to defend my stuff with.

Settler with a slaved workboat though, gets hooked fish T24...but only 1 pop. Timing the work boat to improve the fish whilst at size 2 means I can use the improved fish on T26 with a slavery revolt, size 2, 2 improved food resource, 1 turn from a second chop for 41 hammers into a settler but 0 food in the box. That's basically a settler out eot T26...but only 1 warrior, with IMP. Without IMP? well the food box and tiles are the same, only that's 28 hammers into the settler, so I think the settler would finish 2 turns later. Which actually translates to almost 1 pop less in the capital. And that's just the first settler. I can easily settle for copper if it's available, or split off food and slave in both cities, maybe both. And that's with only one worker, have to get another worker or two very quickly. But IMP is decent for speed, I just have to turn that turn advantage into something else. And I have to pick Germany or Russia. I want to sim the other starting techs, but I'm fairly sure that this start has to be Hunting/Mining.

The problem with starting techs is that Hunting is mandatory to start with, otherwise I have to research that by eot T14, to start pasturing on T15.

• Hunting - 89
  
• Wheel - 89
  
• Agri - 89
  
• Fishing - 59
  
• Myst - 74
  
• Mining - 74
  
• BW - 179
  
• AH - 149
  
• Pottery - 119
  
• Archery - 59
  
• Meditation - 119
  
• Polytheism - 149
  

So basically, the critical techs are Hunting, Fishing, and Bronze Working, which therefore makes Mining mandatory. Starting with Mining and not Hunting means lose 2 turns (due to rounding) on getting to BW and then Fishing. There are no Fishing/Mining or Fishing/Hunting civs here (England, Carthage, Portugal and Rome, and Greece and Vikings respectively). So I can't start with Fishing without royally screwing myself over or highly valuing the UU/UB pair. Frankly America isn't that great, and I just can't value japan that well either, even if I appreciate that UU and UB pair. If I had PRO it would be different, could try to rush out a granary and cope with only 2 food resource, but PRO has gone.

That means I need Hunting civs, Persia, or potentially a Mining civ, Korea. Russia or Germany have both but basically irrelevant UU/UB pairs. I value the Hwacha though, that's pretty decent...until people turn up with HA and it does nothing, and Myst, well, no time for religions so that can bugger off (especially if I pick an AGG leader, barracks give just as much culture, XP and have no tech requirement). Persia starts with Agri as well, which isn't really that relevant to me on this start even if it is worth more beakers than Mining. Still, I don't have to start with Mining, as so long as I get BW by eot T19 I can still make the chops and slaves work. I just can't get the work boat out because Fishing won't land until T24-ish. So really, Korea has a UB that is better than the Russian UB by if you don't care for the gpp and the city makes more than about 50 base bpt. But that to me suggests Korea isn't really worth picking if the start is going to be significantly worse. I'm probably just going to pick Russia because the German UB comes at Steam power, pretty late on, and the UU is just a cheap cannon which isn't that interesting, compared to the Cossack destroying everything except rifles.

So...that's basically how I'd play out the start if I picked Russia and IMP (Cyrus or Genghis).

Worker first, research BW. Pasture Pigs, tech Fishing, grow whilst building warrior move worker to chop 2 forests consecutively. At size 2 drop first chop into the settler, then slave a work boat to work immediately after regrowing to size 2. Chop the second forest into the settler and finish manually most likely before T30. BUt this isn't the only way to play this opening. but I can't figure out the other ways without seeing that starting screenshot again

[Krill]

OK, leaders, here is what is available

• Boudicea, [AGG/CHM]
  
• Genghis, [AGG/IMP]
  
• Cyrus, [CHM/IMP]
  
• Hammurabi, [AGG/ORG]

I need to consider this map. 24*52 is a tight map. 126 land tiles on average (excluding peaks) per player? To me this screams settlers and culture as critical. Claim some land, work it, and there won't be much time for setting up a good bpt because borders will be clashing and horse archers are going to be extremely important. ORG doesn't fit this strategy amazing well. Light houses aren't going to be common. AGG with a multiplicative bonus on city maintenance does have minor anti-synergy with a rush to court houses, but then HBR and Construction are much more likely to be important techs, another point against ORG. And factories are just too far away to really care about, when I expect the game to basically be over by T150. So I'm basically disregarding Hammurabi, I would have picked him if he were the only AGG leader remaining (with say Lincoln and Frederick), but with other available leaders I'm just going to pass. If it were a larger map I'd pick him though.

So that leaves CHM/IMP/AGG. CHM means higher pop limits, good if I can quickly grow cities and either stack slavery unhappiness or just work a lot of improved tiles very quickly. A size 7 capital, working the pig or fish and 6 hills will power expansion by itself, using both food resources to grow to size 7 then splitting off the unneeded resource to another city. But it doesn't help with popping borders or getting settlers out sooner, still have to grow that pop to use it, even if it is the more flexible of the three traits.

IMP is just straight forward. Get settlers out sooner to claim land before anyone else can get there. No one else is IMP (Yet). Only 2 PRO. But no cheap buildings (that are relevant anyway). I got a billion forests to chop but few hills from what I can see. So I'm actually considering just how quickly I can get that second city out with and without IMP, because that is the main reason I'd pick IMP, and I really need to know how to value those none renewable resources that forests are in this game.

AGG is the third trait and TBH just seems to be the one trait that I want to play, regardless of how effective I think it is, because it's new, and that so many other players are using it in this game. It gives cheaper city maintenance, which isn't that important IMO, but is still reasonably nice to have, easier border pops that require less beakers to utilise and are a better hammer investment, and free C1 on a good chunk of the units that get used. But as HA and chariots are going to be the mainstay of any ideal army, I don't really value that C1 promotion that highly beyond the warrior era, not compared to the cheaper promotions of CHM...but I can still have both.

That's actually why this is taking me so long to figure out which leader I want. I'm not sure which will be more useful in this game, IMP to make the most use of those chops in the early game, or CHM to enable higher happy caps and cheaper promotions but risk not getting settlers out fast enough to settle a strong border. Or I could go for both of those and acknowledge I'll have weaker units due to no C1 and difficult border expansions.

Or I could just throw all of this out the window and pick Arabia for the Madrassa, 70 hammers for 4 culture per turn but useless starting techs. But I can't know this without knowing more details regarding my start than I can remember, I need to know the amount of forests and where they are, and the perhaps the most important point of all: I need to know where I can move my settler and scout.

Because I'm seriously considering moving the settler northwest on T0 after the scout and wandering for a plains hill, or another decent tile improvable by Hunting or Agri around the pig. As strong as that fish tile can be, because I cannot go work boat first it's just sucking up those 30 hammers and is basically making the benefit of that first IMP settler...null and void on every level. I'm actually OK with moving provided I find a 5 yield tile or a happy resource. It'll also start to add a bit of imbalance into the map that I could potentially exploit be settling further NW in someones face early on, if I were to pick Genghis [AGG/IMP]. But to make a judgement on that, I need to see the start again and plot scout and settler movements, look for potential city plants and use that information to inform my leader and civ choices. So I'm going to wait for Merovech to return before I make my decision, even if it seems like I'm dragging my heels.