RB PBEM #1 - Gandhi [spoilers]

[Ruff_Hi]

120 EP??? That's brokenly cheap. No wonder there was a push to ban this mission for RBP2. For comparison, how much would it cost you to cut a road?

The base cost for sabotage improvement is 50EPs. Note that the base cost for 'swap civics' is 402 and discounts got that down to 120. With no stationary discount, it would cost me 35EPs.

[Ruff_Hi]

ok, this is what I want to say to Greece ...

Sooooo,

I've been aware of all of my spying options for quite some time and changing your civics and / or religion has been an option that I have thought about. But, as you said - doing that is very unfun. However, your recent flat rejection of my settler teleportation request has forced me to re-evaluate all of our interactions. During that re-evaluation, I realized that none of our dealings favoured India in any way. Greece always bargained hard about everything (remember that silly 10g that I was after, or that hissy fit you threw about the Paper deal?). I've come to realize that Greece was never going to be a friend, it was always going to be just a trading partner.

With regards to your proposal - I don't have to respond to this any time soon ... as you say, the earliest I can change your civics is in 11 turns. I'll think about it.

Ruff

but this is what I did say ...

Sooooo,

I've been aware of all of my spying options for quite some time and changing your civics and / or religion has been an option that I have thought about. But, as you said - doing that is very unfun. With regards to your proposal - I don't have to respond to this any time soon ... as you say, the earliest I can change your civics is in 11 turns. I'll think about it.

Ruff

[Ruff_Hi]

reply from sooooo

Yes, the earliest you can change my civics is 5 turns if you want but
if you assume I go back to rep then it's 11 turns. But the techs and
settler-jump would surely benefit you the sooner you get them, right?

By the way, are you still playing to win the game for yourself or are
you trying to get Dreylin to win and then claim it as a joint victory
(or not)? If it's the latter, roughly how long ago did you make this
decision? Not that it affects anything, I'm just curious.

Am I playing to win? Was I ever in a position that India could win this game? Looking at the map now, I think the answer to that is NO. Looking at the map when it started, I certainly had a chance to win. Dreylin's first city (the gems city towards me) didn't help that chance 1 bit. Realistically, I needed to rush early and hard if I wanted to have a chance to win this game without teaming up.

Current India is just not big enough to be able to push 2 players around (Sooooo and Dreylin). It is big enough to push 1 of those around, but the minute I do that, the other will just cake walk into my land. The lack of iron is certainly a spanner in the works (wrench in the works for the American readers).

So, the only way that I had a chance of winning (after about T25 or so) was to befriend either Dreylin or Sooooo. My relationship with Dreylin is much deeper and stronger than my relationship with Sooooo - thus the formation of DeTOG on T78. My current role in DeTOG is to keep Sooooo off Dreylin's back while he deals with the two Western Civs - I think that I am doing a pretty good job of that. The plan once mh and Athlete were neutralized, was for Dreylin and I to combine forces to take on the much stronger Civ in their cartel - Sooooo.

At the current stage, I think that I am actually getting into a position where I can put a significant dent in Sooooo just by myself.

And here is my response to Sooooo

Sooooo,

The techs are of no interest to me (I popped Compass from a hut). The Gold / Iron city is, but I am currently not feeling the lack of iron so I don't have a burning desire to settle that location.

Regarding your second question - I am still playing to win. I realized on about T25 that the only way India could win was by befriending someone while eliminating the other 3 and then seeing what happens then. My choices of friends were you or Dreylin. The current set up is purely because of the huge disparity between the interaction between myself and Dreylin and between me and you.

For your information, Dreylin and I formed an official Tech Sharing Bloc on T78 after it appeared to us that you, mh and Athlete had formed a trading bloc of your own (freezing Dreylin out of Machinery).

Ruff

Hey - has anyone else noticed that Sooooo never addresses his emails or signs them at the end. I am pretty sure that this is just short hand for him, but it certainly comes across as rude ... basically ... 'I have no time for you so I am just scribbling this note'

As I mentioned above, I have reviewed India's and Greece's historic interaction and India has come to the realization that it hates Greece. Hates it with a passion!

[Ruff_Hi]

wall of text from sooooo - he is getting positively chatty

Thanks for the info. The alliances thing is certainly headache inducing to figure out. If you take personalities out of it and just think about alliances from the point of view of geography and start positions then I've got most people wanting to ally with people who shouldn't want to ally with them in return!

> The current set up is purely because of the huge disparity between the interaction between myself and Dreylin and between me and you.

Yeah - this is the bit that I can't figure out. Basically I've been negotiating hard with you and not particularly helping your cause because I think from my start position I should team up with anyone except for you. Ideally it would have been dreylin, but failing that the other two.

I think you on the first level should have wanted to ally with me. Firstly because of DV stopping expansion for you north and secondly since Dreylin, with his very fertile lands, can only be stopped from winning if his two immediate neighbours attack him. But then if you realise that I don't want to ally with you then you are forced to turn to Dreylin, which is made easy for you because he's good at diplomacy, writes nicer emails etc.

So maybe on a third level I should have in fact decided that it was in my interests to ally with you for the sole reason to stop you allying with Dreylin even if it wasn't in my direct interest on a primary level.

So if I ally with you, Dreylin gets crushed and then you become big. Then if I don't want to backstab I have to accept a worse empire than you and then that makes my hypothetical decision to ally with you look foolish!

And you can keep going to higher levels of thinking but ultimately I think I've decided that Dreylin has the best chances because his vulnerable yet fertile lands are hard get a coordinated attack from because the alliances don't work out.

Does this make any sense? Just trying to rationalise the game.

Does this make sense - sure it does. But who wants to turn themself into a pretzel trying to figure this stuff out.

It is like the prisoner who is told that he will be hung unexpectedly in the next 7 days. He thinks, they cannot hang me on Day 7 because if I survive Day 6, it will not be unexpected. Also, they cannot hang me on Day 6, because I know that they cannot hang me on Day 7 and if I survive Day 5 it will not be unexpected.

He also rules out Days 1 to 5 using similar logic and is totally surprised when they hang him on Day 4.

[zakalwe]

It is like the prisoner who is told that he will be hung unexpectedly in the next 7 days. He thinks, they cannot hang me on Day 7 because if I survive Day 6, it will not be unexpected. Also, they cannot hang me on Day 6, because I know that they cannot hang me on Day 7 and if I survive Day 5 it will not be unexpected.

He also rules out Days 1 to 5 using similar logic and is totally surprised when they hang him on Day 4.

lulz

[Ruff_Hi]

• FF - Cavalry [1]
  
• LQ - Cavalry [3]
  
• DV - Rifle [2]
  
• BH - Cavalry [1]
  
• BS - Theatre [6]
  
• AC - Rifle [3]
  
• TN - Rifle [3]
  
• KS - Courthouse [3]
  
• Scout (Dead Man Walking) - scouting Sooooo land
  
• Scout (Live Man Walking) - scouting Sooooo land
  
• Tech - Steam Power [4], -101g at 100% science, 227g in the bank
  
• Opponent Current Tech Research
  • sooooo - Scientific Method [1], 497g, -107g @ 60%
    
  • athlete - completes Rifling, 89g, negative
    
  • mostly harmless - Constitution [113], 197g, +45g
    

[Ruff_Hi]

Krill is right - obviously you can't let Cannons become top defender versus Cuirassiers. Sooooo has hills outside his city, so rifles on top of your stack make it tough for him to attack out. He has some catapults, but rifles' higher strength + hill + horse bonus should make it tough for him to attack out.

Sooooo has 11 Curiassiers. How many rifles should I bring to the battle ... at least 11? He also has 5 knights which he might use first.

Athlete finished Rifling this turn and will be sending it to Sooooo next turn. I think that I have a small window of opportunity here and I should strike soonish.

If I was to attack, any suggestions regarding attack sequence and promotions?

Here is an estimate of the units I should be able to put on the mine 1 South of Corinth ...

5 Cavalry
5 Rifles
15 Cannons
1 Knight
9 Muskets
5 Maces
4 Cats
1 Horse Archer
3 Pikes
4 Crossbows

52 units

This would face off against Sooooo's units ...

6 Cannons
11 Crui
5 Knights
4 Muskets
5 Maces
6 Cats
2 Horse Archers

39 units

I think I might cut the roads to Corinth next turn to stop the flow of units into that city. That would certainly slow his build up down. If I cause a revolt in Corinth, a Flanking II promoted Cavalay gets 68% odds on the defender with an 18% chance of withdrawal.

I'm thinking that I should attack with Cavalry on the turn I move onto that mine, withstand his counter attack and then kill Corinth the next turn.

[Ruff_Hi]

wall of text from sooooo - he is getting positively chatty

and my reply to Sooooo's meta game email ...

Sooooo,

Wow - up late. Yes, that makes sense. However, I think this game has more legs in it yet - it is too early to start meta-gaming it.

I think the main difference to India between the Ottomans and the Greeks can be summed up in this paragraph of yours (in particular, the last section) ...

> But then if you realise that I don't want to ally with you then you are forced to turn
> to Dreylin, which is made easy for you because he's good at diplomacy, writes nicer emails etc.

It is not that the Ottomans write nicer emails (I know that is just one example) but that the Ottomans actually cared what happened to India (well - at least they were able to give that impression). It appeared to India that the Ottomans were acting as if they thought 'what is good for India is good for us' and thus made sure that India benefited across the board.

Ruff

[Jabah]

6 cannons in DV for Sooooo is a very bad news, it will reduce your top defenders (rifles) enough so that the cuirrasiers will have positive odd (at least to retreat and flank your cannons).
You definitively need a lot more than 6 rifles to absorbe the collateral.

I don't know how much would cost the upgrading of your 9 muskets to rifle, but that could be an option...

Hitting first with cavalry might be good, but except if the top defender is a cannon or cuirrassier, (which I doubt), it won't change anything in the expected contre-strike.

[sunrise089]

I'd like to get Krill's perspective, but I'd be tempted to advise not attacking with cavalry before Soooo can counterattack.

Basically Sooooo can collateral you with 11 units, which is a lot. However your Cavalry and Rifles will have odds defending on everything, at least pre-collateral. Are all of your rifles going to be 1 promo? If not I'd be tempted to take hill-2 with some/all of them if they'll have odds attacking the city with cultural borders down. Basically with so many Indian cannons and the ability to lower the city defenses via spies (and make sure you have enough spies to revolt that city no matter what...I'd also throw him into anarchy the turn you move in, so he can't whip/draft anything) all you have to survive is the collateral attack.

We really should do a worldbuilder test though.