Pink Dot IT Office - Email and technical issues thread - All welcome, all the time

[kalin]

The way some of you are trying to interpret this (it's a valid interpretation if you are a lawyer I guess), then it would be legal for me to (assuming a new war and a sneak attack). Let my opponent move. Move units to attack. Wait 9 hours, flip the turn myself and immediately move my units again.

Elkad, I agree and raised the same issue some time ago. If you move early in the turn, then you are vulnerable to someone moving twice. This can also create a situation where everybody moves early and someone last to end-turn moves, then waits 9 hours without ending the turn, while doing nothing just to be able to claim that the troops didn't move for 9 hours, after which ends turn and moves again. This happened already, and I don't mean any personal criticism as it was agreed that it was a legal thing to do. However, it doesn't quite feel alright.

As Krill said, we may not be able to come up with a perfect rule, but we should probably keep trying.

Kalin

[Elkad]

The perfect rule is "this isn't gamespy, please try to always maintain a turn order with your opponent".

ds moved units and then moved them again without giving me an opportunity to counter them.

Incidentally, in about 90minutes I'm off to work. I won't be home for 12-14+ hours (my longest day of the week).

[Broker33]

I agree with Elkhad although by the letter of the rule it was legal. It does appear that Dsp may have planed the move to be at the end of the timer.

11/3/09 1:34 am dsplaisted Logged out
11/3/09 1:11 am dsplaisted Score decreased to 592
11/3/09 1:10 am dsplaisted Logged in
11/3/09 12:38 am dsplaisted Logged out
11/3/09 12:35 am dsplaisted Score increased to 594
11/3/09 12:35 am A new turn has begun. It is now 275 AD
11/3/09 12:35 am dsplaisted Finished turn
11/3/09 12:33 am dsplaisted Logged in
11/2/09 11:40 pm dsplaisted Logged out
11/2/09 11:35 pm dsplaisted Logged in
11/2/09 11:01 pm dsplaisted Logged out
11/2/09 10:57 pm dsplaisted Logged in
11/2/09 11:11 am dsplaisted Logged out
11/2/09 10:23 am dsplaisted Logged in
11/2/09 2:23 am dsplaisted Score increased to 590
11/2/09 2:23 am A new turn has begun. It is now 250 AD
11/2/09 1:44 am dsplaisted Logged out

[sunrise089]

Elkad, I agree and raised the same issue some time ago. If you move early in the turn, then you are vulnerable to someone moving twice. This can also create a situation where everybody moves early and someone last to end-turn moves, then waits 9 hours without ending the turn, while doing nothing just to be able to claim that the troops didn't move for 9 hours, after which ends turn and moves again. This happened already, and I don't mean any personal criticism as it was agreed that it was a legal thing to do. However, it doesn't quite feel alright.

As Krill said, we may not be able to come up with a perfect rule, but we should probably keep trying.

Kalin

Again, we already had this discussion, but if the consensus has changed then I'm very amenable to changing the rule.

However, I don't feel the above bolded text is true. If you're worried about the enemy moving twice (with 9 hours in between) then log in more often than every nine hours. Laptops and remote access programs make this very doable if one feels it is important. If you still can't log in every 9 hours, then agree with your enemy to split the turn (and Elkad, if you and dsp had agreed to set a turn order, then you're right that we need to have a reload), like the Lins and Krill did. If you can't log in every 9 hours and can't come to a turn order agreement...well then you're at the mercy of the double move rule and the limitations within. However at the start of the game the majority voted specifically not to institute an enforced 9/9 split because of time concerns. Again, with the changes in the game and more experience for everyone, I'm happy to vote again on the rule, but "this isn't gamespy, please try to always maintain a turn order with your opponent" is no more perfect than the current rule, it just favors turn order over freedom to play when you're free.

[Dreylin]

The point is that if I hadn't attacked with the units on turn 125, I would have been free to attack with all my units at the beginning of turn 126, before Elkad brought in reinforcements, with the same results (except for the fact that the units from the first group would have used up their move on turn 126 to attack).

Actually thats a pretty big advantage; being able to move the units this turn means they can occupy the city immediately, and can start healing a turn earlier than they would if they had attacked at the start of t126.

As Kalin said, we discussed this very issue at the start of the Lin \ Hedge war and fortunately came to an agreement to split the turn before either of us were tempted to deliberately delay the game or abuse the letter of the rule.

[MWIN]

No matter how many times you log in, what dsp did can not be stopped. After looking at the playing times posted by Broker, it looks like dsp pretty much played at the end of the turn, flipped the turn and played with in 60 minutes.

[Dreylin]

Again, we already had this discussion, but if the consensus has changed then I'm very amenable to changing the rule.

If nothing else happens from this debate, then can I at least propose we have a re-vote on this rule?

EDIT: as there seems to be enough confusion / disagreement that it does need to be resolved.

[Elkad]

No matter how many times you log in, what dsp did can not be stopped. After looking at the playing times posted by Broker, it looks like dsp pretty much played at the end of the turn, flipped the turn and played with in 60 minutes.

Actually its worse than that, he played immediately on the flip, razing my city. Look at my score drop. Same minute the turn changed. (Edit, sorry, 1 minute later)

He pushed end turn, attacked, razed the city, and logged out. Then logged in again later.

T125, 12:33AM. DS logs in
12:35AM : DS pushes end turn and the turn flips to 126
12:35AM: Everyone's scores go up for various reasons due to turn flip.
12:36AM: My score drops (size1 city was razed)
12:38AM: DS logs out.

He deliberately camped the timer for the purpose of doubling me. The unit on the boat moved after me on T125, and then moved before me on T126 - ONE MINUTE into the turn

[sunrise089]

Ok, obviously a complicated issue with passionate feeling all around. How about I propose we vote on two things:

1) Did dsplaisted's use of the game clock constitute a "bad faith" or "against the spirit of the rules" movement, and therefore should I reload the turn?

2) Should we change the double move rule to an enforced movement order with an assumed 9hour/9hour split in the movement order based on who moved first during the first turn of the conflict, and then allow players to negotiate amongst themselves for an alternate system if they so desire? Keep in mind this will generally make war movement more fair assuming players are able to log in during their assigned window.

[Dreylin]

Well I have to confirm with Kalin our team vote, but from my side:

1) However much I dislike the rule as it's worded, I don't think dsp's moves are against the rule. However since it appears there was not an iron-clad turn-order established between dsp & ZPV, I do believe that most of this situation is due to a misunderstanding on Elkad's part of just exactly what the rule covering this situation actually is (and perhaps that it's not entirely straighforward to find the ruleset).

In this instance I support a reload; not because I believe dsp violated any letter or spirit of the rules, rather because Elkad helped the game continue by joining late and was not involved in the game set-up. Further, if we do vote Yes on #2, I would suggest we actually re-load the game at some point through the previous turn, since that will affect how dsp has approached his last movements.

2) YES!