WW29: Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood

[Serdoa]

Ok, finally re-read while I should work. First few quotes that stuck out:

I am not saying I agree with his [=MJW] attack on Zakalwe. Or even can understand it without my head hurting. But I do not see it as pretty scummy.

That post makes no sense to me. You claim you don't agree with MJWs attack on zak nor that you can even understand it, yet it is not scummy? Is a non-understandable attack that one does not agree with not the exact description of a scummy attack?

I found MJW's attack on Zak scummy because it seems to me he was reaching for reasons to accuse Zak. He says that Zak is scummy because he doesn't show appropriate regret for suggesting a rule correction that disfavours town. It's an inane accusation - the rule was obviously bad, the resulting disfavour to town very slight, and was Zak really supposed to post "woe is villager me and all my compatriots, for having to accept this rule change"?

MJW's behaviour is reminiscent of the game where he pursued Zak for a whole day for a hypothetical suggestion of "no lynch". Zak and MJW were both scum in that game, but the point is that scum MJW loves to find himself a metacase drum to keep beating so that he doesn't have to make actual meaningful contributions.

novices post here is explaining very well what that attack of MJW actually was, and reading this I can even less understand why Goreripper would not agree, not understand but yet not find it scummy. If you don't agree with MJWs point that zak should not as easily agree to a rule-change and if you don't even understand how MJW could come to the idea to attack someone for that the logical conclusion seems for me to find that attack scummy. The logical conclusion for me is not to attack the one who points out that the attack is scummy when I actually agree with him.

Basically what I try to say is that Goreripper imo stated implicit that he found MJWs attack scummy but explicit that he didn't.

So really, I don't see why "hoping to get everybody else to talk" would be the play you expect to see from scum.

To answer this: Because I believe that scum benefits from village talking on N0, as it gives them a chance to draw conclusions about who has or has not a power role and who might be likely to get protected. But we already got to the conclusion (or to be fair I did) that we two have a different understanding of what scum wants to achieve. You believe they want a quiet N0 because then they don't need to engage as early while I think they won't care about that, as they have to engage anyhow and having a non-quiet N0 is more beneficial for them.

Rowain was the one questioning GoreRipper, and now he's dead. GoreRipper had a motive to kill Rowain first, and Rowain must have sensed it since he pointed his suspicions at GoreRipper just before the night ended. Looks quite bad for GoreRipper, obviously enchanced by the fact that Rowain called him out, but scum couldn't have known that Rowain would call both his death and his killer.

Agreed. Rowain was prodding GoreRipper and it was obvious that he would not forget about it on next day. I doubt scum had time to react to Rowain's "no.1 suspect" post, so the timing of his death seems perfect for GoreRipper.

Jowy, Meiz, are you honestly basing anything on the fact that "Rowain must have sensed" something? Maybe he talked with a ghost as well? Sorry, but I can't take that serious. I think we have enough points to look at without Rowain sensing his death coming...

In general for the nightkill-discussion I would agree with those stating that Rowain simply is a good player so that he got targeted isn't that unlikely or a tell for anyone. And that some players have basically don't nothing else than discuss that nightkill seems to me like they searched a place to hide.

Are you saying that suspecting Zak for having a motivation to kill Rowain is something we should ignore? Why?

Because its a bad argument. Everyone who rolled scum had a motivation to kill Rowain. And most of us are imo to overly competitive to let their personal feelings make the decisions. zak might have killed Rowain, but if he did than because Rowain was a good target, not because zak had an argument with Rowain in another game. Jowy would maybe do that (though I doubt that tbh). So yes, you should ignore that zak had a motivation - in your eyes - to kill Rowain and instead look at the general play everyone showed. If you still feel zak is your best vote, go ahead, lynch him. But not because Rowain was nightkilled, if that is your whole reasoning for voting zak you need to re-evaluate.

I have my own opinion on what Jkaen was attempting to accomplish last night, but I'd rather wait to hear his argument before I say what that is. I don't want to speak for him.

I think you did put words into Jkaens mouth here Lewwyn. I very strongly doubt that Jkaen wanted to achieve anything on N0, no matter what he claims now.

4. My case on MJW was effectively shot down as far as I was concerned by Meiz in post 44. I left it up there to fish on tells, which i will cover in a post soon.

I don't believe you Jkaen.

a) Because I generally only believe a few people when they claim they had "a bigger plan" in mind and you are not one of them.
b) Because you effectively did just not agree with Meiz after he shot it down. You did not react to that. That's it. You can state you tried to fish for tells, but maybe you just were asleep, didn't feel like it needed an answer or thought that answering that he is right would lead to you getting questioned why you didn't realize that before you posted your case. Or heck, maybe you hoped you would still get a few people to vote for MJW. Either way, your claim here is imo a lie that you came up because Lewwyn opened you the way to it with what he implied in his post.

You think I shot that down because I wanted to preemptively defend against this accusation that you would be making against me next day? Why not allow Serdoa to suspect MJW instead? If I wanted Jkaen to do it, why not sic Serdoa on him, too? You think he is town, after all, and he sure knows how to drive a wagon.

I'd like to point out that I don't have a valid driving license.

Zak also seems to be focused on being liked rather than wolf-hunting but that would be so easy to see incorrectly if he playing just like he says...

I think that is just an impression you get because zak tries to stay calm and argue on a friendly level with everyone. And because he is attacked from several directions the feeling is that he tries to be "liked". I know I suspected him in one game for being too friendly with me, but he just tried to not get in a screaming-match (somehow everyone believes I'm having issues with my anger... I don't. Others though...)

Serdoa, if you always suspect me, it could get really bad. The wolfs could just keep you and me alive and wait until you mislych me. And then set-up a mislynch on you. As I've said before this game I would shoot you at once in ww28.5 so opted out. This meta-game reason is not good enough if I suspect someone of being a wolf but if that doesn't happen you could make a decent lynch from my perspective... When have you defended me Serdoa? Other players who could have died N1 are Novice, Zak, JKaen, Miez and lewwyn so it is very plausible that the wolfs took out Rowain for a reason....

I don't remember the game-number. Might have been just in the lurker-thread even, I don't know. I just remember that I often state that you actually are making sense when you do play, the issue is that you often meta around instead. And I think for that reason you are a good scum-player, because it gets nearly impossible to decide just by your play on your alignment. So I will often suspect you, but I won't push to lynch you that easily. Didn't we have a game in which you were day-vig and used it were I first wanted to lynch you for it and came around that idea before the day ended?

[novice]

Okay metatells aside I really don't like MJW's play so far. Inane accusations, which Serdoa just reminded me of, and then open questions to the audience "does x usually do this, does y usually do that?". Normally MJW is the one to point out who did what when.

MJW

[zakalwe]

Good post by Serdoa, there. I'd like to hear Jkaen's retort.

Since nobody else is professing their guilt I will also give in to the temptation and vote for MJW. He hasn't been helpful, and he keeps beating his meta-drum, so better him than me.

[Lewwyn]

I'm going to bed soon. Meiz I don't think we're gaining any traction on Mattimeo and so I'm going back to zakalwe

[Goreripper]

Back to GoreRipper

I realized that him being scared to die could also be caused by him rolling a power role. So if I was wrong about him being scum, he would make sense as one of our power roles. For that reason I preferred going after the other scum first, just so if he is a town power role, he can get at least some more use out of it before inevitably being forced to reveal. Zak happens to be the guy I least expect to be a power role out of anyone, and he's also my other top suspect, so that is why I switched. However, now GoreRipper is back to his agitating ways. I think that if he was a power role, he would have read my post about him being scared, and he would have known it to be true and he wouldn't have attacked me like this. So he is either a vanilla villager or scum, and I can safely vote to lynch a scummy target without having to fear hitting our power role.

Ok, this looks like a genuine thought process to me.

Genuine and genuinely terrible. He is covering himself right now saying well at least I only mislynched a normal villager. And still somehow avoids mentioning his claimed early day case.

Jowy I know you have telepathic powers which is how you are the true speaker to the dead and all but I am pretty sure I would not have been able to receive your brainwaves.

Serdoa glad to see you making an effort. I think I stated that MJW is terrible and that I do not think him being terrible is scummy. But you and novice seem to treat MJW like a thinking being so maybe he is clever enough to use that. Did I miss where you actually voted though?

[zakalwe]

Serdoa hasn't voted yet.

Did Jowy actually promise you a case? I thought he already made his case, and it was that you were the only one who could have killed Rowain. (This sounds like ridicule, but that is how I parsed it at the time.)

[Serdoa]

So, conclusion after rereading: I don't like Jkaens play so far. His attack on me was imo not really warranted. He basically voted for me because he concluded that I voted for MJW for anti-town behaviour. Not only wouldn't I agree with that, but it was a night vote. While he counts my vote as if it has some kind of extremely high value despite being done in the night he himself made a similar vote (just in bold instead of red...) but claims now he tried to fish for reactions. I explained in the last post why I don't believe him. Besides that night-post and subsequent claims of fishing for reaction or stating the reactions (which basically is just 9 times: ignored me...) I don't see much content either. So

Jkaen

One other point: It gives me pause that Lewwyn is so active already, given that we normally don't see much from him before later in the game. Given that this game started with so few players though, he doesn't have more than a day to get started. So that's not a scum-tell for me, more something that makes me wary of his reads because he might step up his play knowing that the time-line is rather short while not being suited for that.

(Basically I don't trust that Lewwyn is a good player before he didn't have a day or two to get 'in touch' with the game)

[Jowy]

Rowain was the one questioning GoreRipper, and now he's dead. GoreRipper had a motive to kill Rowain first, and Rowain must have sensed it since he pointed his suspicions at GoreRipper just before the night ended. Looks quite bad for GoreRipper, obviously enchanced by the fact that Rowain called him out, but scum couldn't have known that Rowain would call both his death and his killer.

Agreed. Rowain was prodding GoreRipper and it was obvious that he would not forget about it on next day. I doubt scum had time to react to Rowain's "no.1 suspect" post, so the timing of his death seems perfect for GoreRipper.

Jowy, Meiz, are you honestly basing anything on the fact that "Rowain must have sensed" something? Maybe he talked with a ghost as well? Sorry, but I can't take that serious. I think we have enough points to look at without Rowain sensing his death coming...

In general for the nightkill-discussion I would agree with those stating that Rowain simply is a good player so that he got targeted isn't that unlikely or a tell for anyone. And that some players have basically don't nothing else than discuss that nightkill seems to me like they searched a place to hide.

I'm not. The point there was that GoreRipper ended up looking worse than he would have thought he'd look. Sure, if he kills Rowain for questioning him, it could still bite him in the ass. But before his last minute post, Rowain hadn't straight out said that he has GoreRipper as his number one scum suspect. It all would have been much more likely to go unnoticed if Rowain hadn't called out GoreRipper at the end, which is the impression the scum was under when they made the decision to kill Rowain. Rowain sensing his death is simply the reason that he made the last minute post.

Why ignore the night kill? Just because there exists a chance that it was just a random kill? I don't think that's the way to play WW.. Especially on D1 when there's not much to go with. I'm not saying that we must lynch someone who'd want to kill Rowain first. If something better comes up during the day, then pursue that. If not, then go with the night kill tells; it's still better than random - and better than lynching the easiest to lynch target.

Yeah, scum could use the night kill tells to hide behind.
Scum could also tell us to ignore the night kill tells because they are correct.

[Lewwyn]

So, conclusion after rereading: I don't like Jkaens play so far. His attack on me was imo not really warranted. He basically voted for me because he concluded that I voted for MJW for anti-town behaviour. Not only wouldn't I agree with that, but it was a night vote. While he counts my vote as if it has some kind of extremely high value despite being done in the night he himself made a similar vote (just in bold instead of red...) but claims now he tried to fish for reactions. I explained in the last post why I don't believe him. Besides that night-post and subsequent claims of fishing for reaction or stating the reactions (which basically is just 9 times: ignored me...) I don't see much content either. So

Jkaen

One other point: It gives me pause that Lewwyn is so active already, given that we normally don't see much from him before later in the game. Given that this game started with so few players though, he doesn't have more than a day to get started. So that's not a scum-tell for me, more something that makes me wary of his reads because he might step up his play knowing that the time-line is rather short while not being suited for that.

(Basically I don't trust that Lewwyn is a good player before he didn't have a day or two to get 'in touch' with the game)

... anyway who is second on your list if no one else votes for Jkaen. It is too easy for scum if we don't consolidate.

[Serdoa]

I'm not. The point there was that GoreRipper ended up looking worse than he would have thought he'd look. Sure, if he kills Rowain for questioning him, it could still bite him in the ass. But before his last minute post, Rowain hadn't straight out said that he has GoreRipper as his number one scum suspect. It all would have been much more likely to go unnoticed if Rowain hadn't called out GoreRipper at the end, which is the impression the scum was under when they made the decision to kill Rowain. Rowain sensing his death is simply the reason that he made the last minute post.

So what you say is that scum decided to kill Rowain because he had questioned Goreripper and they wanted to get rid of the questioner before he can gain traction on his target and scum didn't expect Rowain to call his no.1 suspect shortly before dieing? But wouldn't that be true for everyone else that was questioned by Rowain on N0? That they would want to kill him before he can really start? It seems you singled out the one that he called in his last moment when imo by your own logic everyone that was called by Rowain had a motive and whom he called with his last words has no relevance for it at all because those deciding to kill him didn't know that he would do that.

Why ignore the night kill? Just because there exists a chance that it was just a random kill? I don't think that's the way to play WW.. Especially on D1 when there's not much to go with. I'm not saying that we must lynch someone who'd want to kill Rowain first. If something better comes up during the day, then pursue that. If not, then go with the night kill tells; it's still better than random - and better than lynching the easiest to lynch target.

I don't disagree with using night-kill tells if no stronger tells happen. But I disagree with the logic you use regarding those tells. And I think you have ignored (or so it seems to me) most of what happened at day so far and just kept on that one tell that - see above - should be equally true for everyone questioned or called out by Rowain.