WW29: Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood

[Meiz]

I thought Lewwyn townish for talking about his internet issues, but then activating his play regardless. Funny how that happened right after Serdoa got attacked

[novice]

Great post Lewwyn.

Having slept on it I'm still convinced you're scum.

[novice]

For reference here are Lewwyn's posts up to the day 1 lynch.

MJW

On phone. Do not buy MJW as scum.

I didn't see anything out of the ordi art with MJW. His posts are very MJW-esque. I don't see him as scum, but I'm also certainly not saying he's definitely innocent. I just don't see the argument given his antics are extremely in line with normal.

Internet is out on my computer. So weird. My wife's computer is working but mine can't resolve the ISP dns.

Internet issues have been crazy since the tianamen terrorist thing.

Not a revenge vote. But zakalwe for post 45 where he says he has to think about what Jkaen is saying.

I'm a little tempted to vote for MJW, but apart from that, I'm not finding any of the "low hanging fruits" to be all that scummy yet. So I think I also need to hear more from the big guns, i.e. Novice, Meiz, Serdoa, and Lewwyn.

Lewwyn made a nice and funny opening post that didn't actually commit him to either side of the "night talking" debate.

Allow me to tell you where I stand on the night talking. For me it depends. I think talking aids scum. It lets them know who suspects who and who is going to be active in the game. What does the village gain? Nothing IMO. All we get is a jump on the discussion of the day cycle, but at the cost of seeing who is invested in the game.

The person who should have died last night if he were a villager should have been zak given that he was active and apparently trying to rouse the village to arms. Granted Scum could think he is being protected by the doctor. Rowain as a kill makes complete sense because during the night he revealed himself to be active open minded and very villagers IMO.

I am not trying to say we should lynch zak because he lived through the night. My suspicion of him rests entirely with zak saying he was interested in jkaen's theory and that he was going to think about it when in fact that theory was completely, completely ridiculous. Village zak would have shot it down. Scum zak doesn't want to hinder a Jkaen on MJW crusade. Village zak also knows that MJW is ridiculous and prone to the exact stream of conscious thought posts and meta posts that MJW made at the beginning of the game.

Additionly I do believe that zak was trying to get the village to talk in order to see what people were doing and who would be easy lynch bait. However, I am not resting my case against him on that because I can see why villagers would think that speaking at night would help.

Zakalwe chatting a lot at night gives him a town lean to me. He got killed very early last game so he seems like a town who wants to contribute fast before he dies this time.

Possibly. It's also possible he wanted to feel out the village for the right night kill.
Why are you in a rush to state this? And why is it in its own little post??

Rowain was the one questioning GoreRipper, and now he's dead. GoreRipper had a motive to kill Rowain first, and Rowain must have sensed it since he pointed his suspicions at GoreRipper just before the night ended. Looks quite bad for GoreRipper, obviously enchanced by the fact that Rowain called him out, but scum couldn't have known that Rowain would call both his death and his killer. I think this alone makes GoreRipper a better D1 lynch than any D1 lynch we've had in the games I've played here, so GoreRipper

Goreripper is def my #2 right now. I'm not sure I completely buy the Rowain angle because it could be a frame up, but his other posts have not been convincingly village.

If not clear I was still going through the thread the last post, and now that I'm fully caught up it looks like I'm not alone in the zak and goreripper suspicions. Not sure what to make of that. On one hand it validates what I'm seeing, on the other it could be a scummy setup. Happily this is a small game and townies figuring things out day 1 has happened n the past. Even when zak and I were scum in an 11 player game zak was nearly lynched 3 days in a row. I do think scum is easier to find in a smaller game.

Novice: Goreripper's post #61 is the one that is awkward IMO. When I read it I was like what? And Rowain also picked up on it and challenged it. Goreripper's posts after that seemed to be trying to salvage what was a bad comment about Night 0 being helpful. Night 0 can be helpful but not for the reasons he initially chose.

His first post after Rowain's death is also a bit forced. Feel's like he's scrambling, but I don't think that's fully a scum tell.

The post after that post is his Zak post which comes out of nowhere. That rings my bell. There is no prompting, it is one line, and it is just so odd. Could he be buddying up? Could he be trying to help Zak? Is this a case of reverse distancing where Goreripper says "a wolf would never do that"?

I'd thank you not to put words in my mouth. That was not one of the options because there was only one vote on Zak and there wasn't even a case or any kind of wagon on him when you made that post. The fact that you felt so compelled to try and either protect him or buddy him unprompted only 30 minutes into the day is scummy to me.

I think the word I was looking for was the one I used, forced.

I have my own opinion on what Jkaen was attempting to accomplish last night, but I'd rather wait to hear his argument before I say what that is. I don't want to speak for him.

It's annoying to try and deal with such long quoting so I'll try to address the important points.

Yes I was ignoring your attack on me because... there wasn't one? Not really. Which I also found to be a bit suspicious, but didn't say so in my previous post.

I do get a slight scum vibe from the way your rhetoric goes "I'm not saying X, but blah blah blah, so in conclusion X".

Except that's exactly what I was trying not to do. I specifically said that I'm basing my suspicion of you based on a post that is very, very lazy scum zak.

So why are you saying I am the one who should have died?

Again this is an observation that I specifically said is not why you are suspicious. If you are a villager then scum likely were choosing between you and Rowain. There is a doctor in this game and I think as scum you are cognizant and would attempt to be as worthy of the doctor's save as possible as a possible excuse as to why you are still alive.

Your last paragraph is a very weak accusation against me, and it's another accusation where I have to doubt the sincerity. You really think I would go out of my way to get people talking, as scum? Especially considering the context, where I would be scum for something like the 7th time in the last 10 games? That's the same accusation that Serdoa leveled at MJW, btw. You acknowledge that this is a weak accusation in the same breath that you're making it, so it would be better to leave it out. By leaving it in, it just serves as bait for others who are looking for reasons to suspect me.

I believe you are scum and I believe you were fishing for information last night. But I also recognize its not a strong argument. I specifically stated that. I would be remiss, however, not to say whats on my mind.

On the flip side, I can also see how your play so far makes sense if I put on my town-tinted glasses. You think talking at night is bad, but you've got a strong town read on MJW, so you feel the need to chime in on that particular issue, because you don't want the seer to waste a scan on him. And you follow this up by suspecting me today, since I didn't do enough in your mind to shoot down the weak case on MJW. Is this an accurate summary?

No.

This:

My theory was he didnt notice the PMs if they were already there (given Bricks reaction i think they were not) and took a gamble that there would be something in the village PM he could claim he was refering to when questioned. That way he tries to get meta cleared which may have been the only way the thought likely to survive to the end

Ok, I need to think about that, but it doesn't sound entirely implausible, under the assumption that MJW actually thought the role PMs were missing (even if they weren't). The "default" counterargument is that he'd be likely to double-check for those role PMs before posting anything about it if he's scum.

is not you not doing enough to shoot down a weak case. This is you openly giving possible credence to a bizarre idea that MJW is gambling on the possibility that Brick made a mistake. The fact that you even consider this as a possibility disqualifies you as village Zak in my eyes. "I need to think about that"? Forget everything else, which I also said in my earlier post. This is the reason you are scum.

I think you left out one of the possibilities. Its the last one there.

Continuing with the catch-up... don't do this, Goreripper. Editing other people's posts and passing them off as genuine quotes is incredibly annoying, and for someone skimming through, like I did earlier, it's not so easy to catch, so it can be downright misleading.

It's a shame you couldn't warn him in the scum thread during the day.

I wanted to address your response to the quote I pointed out here:

The reason I didn't shoot this down was that one aspect of it made sense to me. First of all, I think MJW genuinely didn't notice the PMs in the opening post at first, and I think it's possible that could have happened even if he's scum. And he did make a very open-ended statement about what was in the village PM, which could be retrofitted to describe anything once the actual PM was posted (which he had to expect would happen). So if he wanted to make a bold gamble, the vague way that he phrased his claim about the PM made sense. Also, MJW has defeatist tendencies as scum, and is IMO more likely to make a potentially game-winning gambit if he feels the odds are stacked against him and thinks that's the only way to pull through. So based on this, I didn't think Jkaen's theory deserved to be dismissed out of hand.

On the other hand, I can clearly see that this theory is a bit "out there", in terms of moving parts, fancy play theorem, etc. And I did point this out immediately, i.e. in the very same post, by stating the default counterargument.

The issue here is that you are defending your comment now by saying that there one part that made sense. I honestly can't see that. Even your explanation of why it made sense to you is just... really out there. What are you are claiming is that you got caught up in Jkaen's theory and actually went further down the rabbit hole in your own mind and then came back to Jkaen and said "ok".

But then you claim you already new it was crazy and you displayed the counter argument. But isn't that exactly what scum would do? Show both sides with out completely shutting down all possibilities? We get on people all the time for wishy-washy voting reasons and that is EXACTLY what this is. Fence-sitting on a crazy theory. One that you yourself have just pretty much shut down. And yet you say okay.


Coming back now and working out the explanation is your classic defense. You try to justify not shutting down Jkaen's comment by saying you shut down someone else's that you didn't agree with (And people this is important to note):

I also followed up shortly after with this, shooting down another accusation against MJW which didn't make sense to me:

I believe he stated that "no nighttalk" just because he thought that is what village would do while he himself talked regardless because he hoped to get everyone else to talk as well.

I don't think mafia would be particularly eager to get people talking on night 0. I think they'd be content to lurk through the night if the mood seemed to allow it.

So I wasn't trying to pave the way for a MJW wagon. I shot down the arguments that I disagreed with, but there were aspects of Jkaen's case that I didn't disagree with.

Are you kidding me? You didn't shoot it down. You were basically defending yourself! You are also one of the people trying to get people to talk at night so obviously you disagreed with the idea that you were scum. You can't hold this up as proof that you shoot down ideas that you disagree with. Your entire defense on this is weak.




And Zak if you are a villager, who is your top suspect? Is it still me?

I see you've moved onto novice... because you don't have a strong read?

I actually think that the case on Serdoa is very weak and that he's a villager.

Jkaen:

I have to admit when I woke up this morning I was thinking, "I wonder if novice is scum." Honestly, Zak's choice to pressure novice was one of the few choices he could have made to get me to reevaluate. So I'm doing that. One of the nice things about a small game is that its easier in the sense that you can eliminate people you think are innocent and focus on a smaller pool. I know I am innocent that leaves 9 people. Of those:

MJW
Jkaen
Jowy
Serdoa

I lean innocent on. That leaves,

Zak
Novice
goreripper
Meiz
Mattimeo

as people in my current possible suspect pool.

Mattimeo will you please cast a vote.

I'm not sure how I'm scummy for knowing you were playing lazy scum last game. You have played aggressive active scum with me in the past, which has mirrored your performance here.

The fact that you are trying to frame my arguments against you as waffling is pretty scummy.

I think you're talking in a circles a bit Zak. And so far for me I haven't seen anything from you that feels like honest scumhunting. A lot of talking but not much substance.

Mattimeo no comment on Zak?

Lewwyn no comment on the Jays?

To me they both have seemed in line with baseline. I would be more comfortable if Jowy were talking a bit more, but everything Jkaen has done seems village to me.

Serdoa during N0 was pure village Serdoa IMO.

No, the one who has gone up my suspect list now is Mattimeo.

Interesting argument against zak for the subtle encouragement of crackpot theories. Agreed that the response seems more indicative of covering tracks. Can't really find who came up with it, though, just the later discussion about it. Can't escape my mind that the argument seems specific enough to be one the scum lovingly crafted overnight to nab zak today, though :/

How is it that the case against Zak seems interesting, but it is a mystery as to its origin? I mean I think its clear that I started the case. If he thinks its lovingly crafted by scum to "nab Zak" why hasn't he looked harder to figure out who came up with the idea?? His comment on me was "Lewwyn being Lewwyn" so it's not like he hasn't read my posts? And what is the implication here? That the case against Zak is TOO specific? Is mattimeo implying that Zak is innocent without saying that? The whole comment reeks of waffling. Zak why aren't you jumping all over this?

I'm willing to vote Mattimeo.

BTW Goreripper is starting to feel like a patsy.

BTW Goreripper is starting to feel like a patsy.

To clarify, Goreripper feels like the person no one really trusts and no one REALLY (besides Jowy maybe) wants to lynch, but everyone says could be a good lynch. Last game we fed off this symptom. Find the person that is the consensus, "I don't mind lynching that guy" lynchbait.


Are you stuck on Goreripper, novice?

Anyone else want Jowy to put up or shut up?

No.

I'm going to bed soon. Meiz I don't think we're gaining any traction on Mattimeo and so I'm going back to zakalwe

So, conclusion after rereading: I don't like Jkaens play so far. His attack on me was imo not really warranted. He basically voted for me because he concluded that I voted for MJW for anti-town behaviour. Not only wouldn't I agree with that, but it was a night vote. While he counts my vote as if it has some kind of extremely high value despite being done in the night he himself made a similar vote (just in bold instead of red...) but claims now he tried to fish for reactions. I explained in the last post why I don't believe him. Besides that night-post and subsequent claims of fishing for reaction or stating the reactions (which basically is just 9 times: ignored me...) I don't see much content either. So

Jkaen

One other point: It gives me pause that Lewwyn is so active already, given that we normally don't see much from him before later in the game. Given that this game started with so few players though, he doesn't have more than a day to get started. So that's not a scum-tell for me, more something that makes me wary of his reads because he might step up his play knowing that the time-line is rather short while not being suited for that.

(Basically I don't trust that Lewwyn is a good player before he didn't have a day or two to get 'in touch' with the game)

... anyway who is second on your list if no one else votes for Jkaen. It is too easy for scum if we don't consolidate.

[Lewwyn]

But novice has incredible rereading powers:



He's just trying to make sure everyone's in line:



But I still don't know why I'm suspicious.

[novice]

And Serdoa's posts.

MJW

That whole meta-stuff seems pretty MJW to me at first glance, but I don't like how he generally asked not to talk at night, just to talk like a madman himself. I believe he stated that "no nighttalk" just because he thought that is what village would do while he himself talked regardless because he hoped to get everyone else to talk as well.

Also I'm pretty certain I saw a few PMs listed. Maybe the standard villager was missing though, I can't say for certain.

@zak

With that argument you can pretty much counter everything. If every scum would play perfectly and always do the right moves we could as well stop playing, no?

I believe he stated that "no nighttalk" just because he thought that is what village would do while he himself talked regardless because he hoped to get everyone else to talk as well.

I don't think mafia would be particularly eager to get people talking on night 0. I think they'd be content to lurk through the night if the mood seemed to allow it.

I don't agree with that zak, but we obviously have a different opinion on that and without any experience (at least in my case) it really comes down to believes. But I think scum benefits more from talk than they lose by it. As scum you need to integrate in the town in any case, it doesn't matter if you have to do it for 24 hours more. But then I never felt it hard to integrate into town as scum either, so I admit I might be biased.

I would defend, but I don't know against what. It's not like anyone asked a question, I just see sentiments that my case against MJW wasn't good. And it wasn't. What simply is for the fact that I had no much time and it was night regardless, so its not like the vote counts except for pointing my general disagreement out. I still believe that it is an obvious contradiction to state "don't talk at night" and then do it oneself, but he at least explained now that he sees a difference between his meta-talks and "real"-talk. I personally don't, because both lead to others talking as well.

And no, I'd like not to talk more about if night-talk on N0 of a game benefits scum or village. This is the first time I play that way so I have no experience to go on about that point. I explained that already. We can go in circles with that, but it won't change my opinion.

On another point: I won't have much time the next days. I have to take care of my wife who collapsed because of exhaustion on Friday last week. It probably still means I have more time for this game as I won't travel as planned to Vienna, but before I get voted just for making not as long cases as normally, that's the reason for that. Feel free to vote for me still if you don't like them, just don't expect pressure votes to do much.

Just quickly from work: Jkaen, scum-play isn't necessarily anti-town play and vice versa but that doesn't mean it can't. I personally would put MJWs general play into anti-town play, though not for the reasons most do (distracting etc.,). In this particular instance though what I didn't like was his obvious contradiction between stating not to talk and then talk. The play itself is just anti-town (because it leads to exactly these arguments now, because it is distracting to some, because it might get others to talk in the night [what as I stated already I personally think has a higher chance to be a loss for town than a win]). So, again, that play is imo anti-town. But the contradiction hints for me to a scum-play. Now that is something we can disagree about of course, especially if you believe night-talk is beneficial to the town (though in that case you should suspect MJW for actually trying to suppress night-talk...). But I personally don't see why a townie would do that kind of play. I don't see scum doing it either, you wouldn't get away with it imo. But MJW does get away with it because he is MJW, so I do see scum-MJW doing that. Would I see town-MJW do it? Yes. Actually I would. Doesn't mean I won't call it out. I called Q a few games back on something everyone disagreed with me and gave me fire for even bringing it up because it was such a minor point. But in the end I was right.

(The last part is not meant as bragging btw, just to point out that sometimes you have to call out small things and see what happens.)

With a lazy lynch I mean the common phenomenon here at RB that the town ends up killing the easiest to lynch target instead of the scummiest target, just because it's so hard to reach a consensus. I know that it's a team game and compromises need to be made, but lately the town has just been losing and losing, something needs to change in how we play.

I haven't voted yet for that reason Jowy. I don't have the time currently to read through all posts thoroughly but I very deliberately did not rush to vote MJW at the start of the day, despite my night-"vote".

I probably should reread further, but as I read the new posts already:

@MJW: I find it interesting that you in the same sentence state that you lean villager on me but also that your mind could be changed because I always suspect you. I actually don't btw and have defended you in games even, but that's beside the point right now. Why would you vote me, if you lean villager on me, just because I suspect you always? Suspecting you doesn't make me scum.

-----

Regarding Rowain being night-killed I would agree with zak that building a case based on "he would like to see Rowain dead" isn't really making sense, especially as Rowain showed investment into the game what is a good reason to kill him + chances are lower that he is protected (as every sane doctor would protect himself or if he isn't allowed one of zak, novice, Lewwyn or me).

And imo, trying to push a case basing just on who would like to kill Rowain is at best lazy play. EVERYONE would like to kill Rowain, that's an effect of his charming personality.

Ok, finally re-read while I should work. First few quotes that stuck out:

I am not saying I agree with his [=MJW] attack on Zakalwe. Or even can understand it without my head hurting. But I do not see it as pretty scummy.

That post makes no sense to me. You claim you don't agree with MJWs attack on zak nor that you can even understand it, yet it is not scummy? Is a non-understandable attack that one does not agree with not the exact description of a scummy attack?

I found MJW's attack on Zak scummy because it seems to me he was reaching for reasons to accuse Zak. He says that Zak is scummy because he doesn't show appropriate regret for suggesting a rule correction that disfavours town. It's an inane accusation - the rule was obviously bad, the resulting disfavour to town very slight, and was Zak really supposed to post "woe is villager me and all my compatriots, for having to accept this rule change"?

MJW's behaviour is reminiscent of the game where he pursued Zak for a whole day for a hypothetical suggestion of "no lynch". Zak and MJW were both scum in that game, but the point is that scum MJW loves to find himself a metacase drum to keep beating so that he doesn't have to make actual meaningful contributions.

novices post here is explaining very well what that attack of MJW actually was, and reading this I can even less understand why Goreripper would not agree, not understand but yet not find it scummy. If you don't agree with MJWs point that zak should not as easily agree to a rule-change and if you don't even understand how MJW could come to the idea to attack someone for that the logical conclusion seems for me to find that attack scummy. The logical conclusion for me is not to attack the one who points out that the attack is scummy when I actually agree with him.

Basically what I try to say is that Goreripper imo stated implicit that he found MJWs attack scummy but explicit that he didn't.

So really, I don't see why "hoping to get everybody else to talk" would be the play you expect to see from scum.

To answer this: Because I believe that scum benefits from village talking on N0, as it gives them a chance to draw conclusions about who has or has not a power role and who might be likely to get protected. But we already got to the conclusion (or to be fair I did) that we two have a different understanding of what scum wants to achieve. You believe they want a quiet N0 because then they don't need to engage as early while I think they won't care about that, as they have to engage anyhow and having a non-quiet N0 is more beneficial for them.

Rowain was the one questioning GoreRipper, and now he's dead. GoreRipper had a motive to kill Rowain first, and Rowain must have sensed it since he pointed his suspicions at GoreRipper just before the night ended. Looks quite bad for GoreRipper, obviously enchanced by the fact that Rowain called him out, but scum couldn't have known that Rowain would call both his death and his killer.

Agreed. Rowain was prodding GoreRipper and it was obvious that he would not forget about it on next day. I doubt scum had time to react to Rowain's "no.1 suspect" post, so the timing of his death seems perfect for GoreRipper.

Jowy, Meiz, are you honestly basing anything on the fact that "Rowain must have sensed" something? Maybe he talked with a ghost as well? Sorry, but I can't take that serious. I think we have enough points to look at without Rowain sensing his death coming...

In general for the nightkill-discussion I would agree with those stating that Rowain simply is a good player so that he got targeted isn't that unlikely or a tell for anyone. And that some players have basically don't nothing else than discuss that nightkill seems to me like they searched a place to hide.

Are you saying that suspecting Zak for having a motivation to kill Rowain is something we should ignore? Why?

Because its a bad argument. Everyone who rolled scum had a motivation to kill Rowain. And most of us are imo to overly competitive to let their personal feelings make the decisions. zak might have killed Rowain, but if he did than because Rowain was a good target, not because zak had an argument with Rowain in another game. Jowy would maybe do that (though I doubt that tbh). So yes, you should ignore that zak had a motivation - in your eyes - to kill Rowain and instead look at the general play everyone showed. If you still feel zak is your best vote, go ahead, lynch him. But not because Rowain was nightkilled, if that is your whole reasoning for voting zak you need to re-evaluate.

I have my own opinion on what Jkaen was attempting to accomplish last night, but I'd rather wait to hear his argument before I say what that is. I don't want to speak for him.

I think you did put words into Jkaens mouth here Lewwyn. I very strongly doubt that Jkaen wanted to achieve anything on N0, no matter what he claims now.

4. My case on MJW was effectively shot down as far as I was concerned by Meiz in post 44. I left it up there to fish on tells, which i will cover in a post soon.

I don't believe you Jkaen.

a) Because I generally only believe a few people when they claim they had "a bigger plan" in mind and you are not one of them.
b) Because you effectively did just not agree with Meiz after he shot it down. You did not react to that. That's it. You can state you tried to fish for tells, but maybe you just were asleep, didn't feel like it needed an answer or thought that answering that he is right would lead to you getting questioned why you didn't realize that before you posted your case. Or heck, maybe you hoped you would still get a few people to vote for MJW. Either way, your claim here is imo a lie that you came up because Lewwyn opened you the way to it with what he implied in his post.

You think I shot that down because I wanted to preemptively defend against this accusation that you would be making against me next day? Why not allow Serdoa to suspect MJW instead? If I wanted Jkaen to do it, why not sic Serdoa on him, too? You think he is town, after all, and he sure knows how to drive a wagon.

I'd like to point out that I don't have a valid driving license.

Zak also seems to be focused on being liked rather than wolf-hunting but that would be so easy to see incorrectly if he playing just like he says...

I think that is just an impression you get because zak tries to stay calm and argue on a friendly level with everyone. And because he is attacked from several directions the feeling is that he tries to be "liked". I know I suspected him in one game for being too friendly with me, but he just tried to not get in a screaming-match (somehow everyone believes I'm having issues with my anger... I don't. Others though...)

Serdoa, if you always suspect me, it could get really bad. The wolfs could just keep you and me alive and wait until you mislych me. And then set-up a mislynch on you. As I've said before this game I would shoot you at once in ww28.5 so opted out. This meta-game reason is not good enough if I suspect someone of being a wolf but if that doesn't happen you could make a decent lynch from my perspective... When have you defended me Serdoa? Other players who could have died N1 are Novice, Zak, JKaen, Miez and lewwyn so it is very plausible that the wolfs took out Rowain for a reason....

I don't remember the game-number. Might have been just in the lurker-thread even, I don't know. I just remember that I often state that you actually are making sense when you do play, the issue is that you often meta around instead. And I think for that reason you are a good scum-player, because it gets nearly impossible to decide just by your play on your alignment. So I will often suspect you, but I won't push to lynch you that easily. Didn't we have a game in which you were day-vig and used it were I first wanted to lynch you for it and came around that idea before the day ended?

So, conclusion after rereading: I don't like Jkaens play so far. His attack on me was imo not really warranted. He basically voted for me because he concluded that I voted for MJW for anti-town behaviour. Not only wouldn't I agree with that, but it was a night vote. While he counts my vote as if it has some kind of extremely high value despite being done in the night he himself made a similar vote (just in bold instead of red...) but claims now he tried to fish for reactions. I explained in the last post why I don't believe him. Besides that night-post and subsequent claims of fishing for reaction or stating the reactions (which basically is just 9 times: ignored me...) I don't see much content either. So

Jkaen

One other point: It gives me pause that Lewwyn is so active already, given that we normally don't see much from him before later in the game. Given that this game started with so few players though, he doesn't have more than a day to get started. So that's not a scum-tell for me, more something that makes me wary of his reads because he might step up his play knowing that the time-line is rather short while not being suited for that.

(Basically I don't trust that Lewwyn is a good player before he didn't have a day or two to get 'in touch' with the game)

I'm not. The point there was that GoreRipper ended up looking worse than he would have thought he'd look. Sure, if he kills Rowain for questioning him, it could still bite him in the ass. But before his last minute post, Rowain hadn't straight out said that he has GoreRipper as his number one scum suspect. It all would have been much more likely to go unnoticed if Rowain hadn't called out GoreRipper at the end, which is the impression the scum was under when they made the decision to kill Rowain. Rowain sensing his death is simply the reason that he made the last minute post.

So what you say is that scum decided to kill Rowain because he had questioned Goreripper and they wanted to get rid of the questioner before he can gain traction on his target and scum didn't expect Rowain to call his no.1 suspect shortly before dieing? But wouldn't that be true for everyone else that was questioned by Rowain on N0? That they would want to kill him before he can really start? It seems you singled out the one that he called in his last moment when imo by your own logic everyone that was called by Rowain had a motive and whom he called with his last words has no relevance for it at all because those deciding to kill him didn't know that he would do that.

Why ignore the night kill? Just because there exists a chance that it was just a random kill? I don't think that's the way to play WW.. Especially on D1 when there's not much to go with. I'm not saying that we must lynch someone who'd want to kill Rowain first. If something better comes up during the day, then pursue that. If not, then go with the night kill tells; it's still better than random - and better than lynching the easiest to lynch target.

I don't disagree with using night-kill tells if no stronger tells happen. But I disagree with the logic you use regarding those tells. And I think you have ignored (or so it seems to me) most of what happened at day so far and just kept on that one tell that - see above - should be equally true for everyone questioned or called out by Rowain.

So, conclusion after rereading: I don't like Jkaens play so far. His attack on me was imo not really warranted. He basically voted for me because he concluded that I voted for MJW for anti-town behaviour. Not only wouldn't I agree with that, but it was a night vote. While he counts my vote as if it has some kind of extremely high value despite being done in the night he himself made a similar vote (just in bold instead of red...) but claims now he tried to fish for reactions. I explained in the last post why I don't believe him. Besides that night-post and subsequent claims of fishing for reaction or stating the reactions (which basically is just 9 times: ignored me...) I don't see much content either. So

Jkaen

One other point: It gives me pause that Lewwyn is so active already, given that we normally don't see much from him before later in the game. Given that this game started with so few players though, he doesn't have more than a day to get started. So that's not a scum-tell for me, more something that makes me wary of his reads because he might step up his play knowing that the time-line is rather short while not being suited for that.

(Basically I don't trust that Lewwyn is a good player before he didn't have a day or two to get 'in touch' with the game)

... anyway who is second on your list if no one else votes for Jkaen. It is too easy for scum if we don't consolidate.

Jkaen -> Meiz -> Jowy / Goreripper -> Mattimeo / novice -> MJW / zakalwe / Lewwyn

(Meiz because he didn't really add much and I feel he jumped on a few questionable ideas, like that from Jowy)

Meiz, if I missed something, it may well be because I re-read at work while being constantly bothered with people asking me stuff and having meetings. Just to give you an idea, I started with my re-read at 9:30 in the morning, yet my post was in the afternoon. I will take a second look at your posts specifically.

As for why Matt is so low on my lynch-preference: Because he sounds like Matt to me. Less meta-ish but there isn't a whole bunch of meta to discuss, so he simply shuts up for the most part and waits to get to a later stage were he feels less lost. If you check a few of the last games you will see that my attitude towards Matt is general to give him more leeway at the start because he gets easily lynched just for being him.

@Meiz

I looked at your posts. Tbh I think I ignored the last few of them because besides the one longer post they all revolved around zakalwe being scum what I simply don't see right now. Especially as I could most of the time agree with zak that the accusations themselves make no sense. For example when he stated that we should know that he doesn't want to play scum and therefore wouldn't be as motivated as he is if he had rolled scum again you countered by stating that in a game with 2 scum he would be. What is he to say to that?

As for longer post, you made some points I agree with (Lewwyn being town for example) but also a few that I don't understand. For example: "Looking at Matt's list, I found it interesting that he brushes off Zak for "Can't escape my mind that the argument seems specific enough to be one the scum lovingly crafted overnight to nab zak today, though", without going into anything specific."

What specific would you expect here? It seems for me that he just posted the thought that maybe that whole argument on zak being the night-killer of Rowain was deliberately brought up by scum who intentionally choose Rowain for that reason as their night-kill. So, I don't think there is anything to get more specific about that if YOU don't ask anything more specific.

Or your whole paragraph on Goreripper. I think you make some good points, but you don't actually follow them up with anything. You put it out there but seem to wait for someone else to come and actually question Goreripper.

And as end another quote regarding zak from you from the same long post

Zak also shots down the last argument with: "You really think I would go out of my way to get people talking, as scum?"
Why is that idea so ridiculous? Scum will try to appear like town, and that is exactly what people expect from town-Zak. So this statement doesn't make sense to me. It's not just a defense of yourself, but you seem to think that the idea doesn't make sense in general for scum.

Actually, that's exactly what zak claimed all the time, that it doesn't make sense for scum to talk or get people to talk at night. So I think his reaction to the accusation that he is scum and tried to get people to talk makes perfect sense from his standpoint. One I don't necessarily agree with as I stated earlier, but it is in line with his statements throughout the game.

Thank you Brick. I do not like either other but MJW is a little more likely to be mafia if novice is right.

I don't like this post, imo it is just scummy. First he votes MJW - and that's actually fine just as a "save my own ass"-vote. But instead he puts emphasis on that he has more likelihood to be mafia if novice is right, trying to brush of the responsibility and also giving a (imo) faked reason when none was necessary besides that he only knows his own alignment.

Goreripper

Jowy how do you feel about Serdoa? He has explained himself a little better but still does not feel like his last few games.

I don't really get how MJW went from a top suspect to the most-likely-town on his list. I re-read his posts and didn't find any reason for this change. And as far as I know, Zak is also a townie in his list simply for the reason that he agrees with Zak on the relevance of the night kill tells, and I find that a pretty weak reason. His point on Jkaen was good, but easy to make against anyone who fishes for reactions. Overall I'd say Serdoa has been slightly scummy.

I'm not sure - when was MJW a top suspect? You don't mean my night-vote do you?

Ok, so within 48h, several posts by him and over 200 more in total and his explanation that he didn't see meta-talk on the same level as normal talk I can't come around on my view on him? I would not be regarded as one of the better players if I would be so stubborn as you expect it from me.

Ok, so within 48h, several posts by him and over 200 more in total and his explanation that he didn't see meta-talk on the same level as normal talk I can't come around on my view on him? I would not be regarded as one of the better players if I would be so stubborn as you expect it from me.

I expected an explanation

You got it

@Meiz, MJW: You told BRick he sucks, I think zak mentioned that already. Does someone really need more reason to be annoyed at someone else than that that someone told him he sucks?

Yeah, I hate you all

[novice]

Serdoa thinks Lewwyn's town but that his reads are bad. Lewwyn was bottom of Serdoa's lynch priority. No interaction apart from that.

Serdoa is danger of being lynched all day. With Serdoa at two early votes, Lewwyn activates and pushes his case on Zak which is based on one nice hook and then he adds all the innuendo that isn't relevant, as Zak pointed out. Zak can expand on why Lewwyn's case on Zak was bad (actually he already has).

A little later Lewwyn says about Serdoa: "I actually think that the case on Serdoa is very weak and that he's a villager." Next morning he leans innocent on Serdoa. Then he says "Serdoa during N0 was pure village Serdoa IMO." Well IMO Serdoa played an off game, one thing is to have a town lean on him, but to claim that he was pure village Serdoa is not credible.

His last interaction with Serdoa is an attempt to consolidate votes. "It is too easy for scum if we don't consolidate."

Besides pushing Zak, he pushes Mattimeo while in the same breath mentioning how scum like to coalesce on compromise candidates, and that he's worried that Goreripper is such a "patsy". I really didn't like this at the time, as I said then, if anybody's a patsy it's surely Mattimeo.

Apart from Lewwyn, most of the other players managed to make themselves look pretty good through yesterday's events, so even if Lewwyn's actions in themselves weren't scummy (which they are), he would be a good lynch by elimination.

[zakalwe]

It seems to me like Lewwyn and Serdoa agreed in their strategy meeting on night 0 that they should read each other as innocent, to have full flexibility to defend and/or save each other, if required. At the same time they had the usual urge to maintain distance to their buddy, so they ended up taking largely opposite stances. Serdoa started out with an attack on MJW, and Lewwyn defended him. Then Lewwyn attacked me, and Serdoa defended me. Lewwyn made a push for Mattimeo, but Serdoa didn't follow. Lewwyn called Goreripper a patsy, and Serdoa ended up voting for him. Quite a striking difference in views for two people who read each other as town.

Lewwyn, you are indeed a fantastic scum player. I was the only one who voted for you yesterday, and Jowy even wanted to lynch me over that. It is a lot easier to narrow things down now that Serdoa is dead, though. Anyway, it seems like you acknowledge that there's a case against you, since you say you wouldn't be caught so easily.

[BRickAstley]

Deadline, one sec.

[BRickAstley]

Jkaen has been killed. He was a Villager.

[MJW (ya that one)]

I'll just dump my vote on, Mattimeo, until he answers my question about why he made that strange post right on the deadline.