WW29: Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood

[Meiz]

One of them attacked basically everyone except Serdoa. Until the last minute vote that is.

Upon rereading it, this feels a bit over-aggressive coming from you. It's not really accurate, so you're reaching to make sure I will be seen as more scummy you. I got the same vibe of slight over-aggressiveness when you were attacking me on day 1. You usually don't push your cases with such great conviction. And in our current situation, when the game is all but won, so long as we don't mess up royally, I'd expect a bit of caution and careful evaluation from you.

You're now talking about the guy who wolves thought as seer because he tunneled so hard

I think it would be fair to assume, that in 2 scum game, especially on say 1 scum want to keep their voting options open. Both novice and GoreRipper played their early game in a way that if Serdoa was going to be on the block, they would have hard time explaining not voting him.

For example novice started early with a vote on Serdoa and later posts that he is considering between Jowy and Serdoa, http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid431397

Also he voted Serdoa in the end and could expect at minimum me and GoreRipper to join him. That would have left the votes 4-4 between Serdoa and GoreRipper, with you being the decisive vote. I don't think scum-novice would have wanted to take that risk.

I have really hard time seeing GoreRipper and Serdoa working together as scum. How is my statement on you unfair? Here are your suspicions for day 1:

Against me, http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid430687
MJW, http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid430697
GoreRipper, http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid430754
http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid430906
Lewwyn, http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid430909
novice, http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid431062
Jkaen & me, novice, goreripper, http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid431116

Mild comment on Serdoa:
http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid431343
"Lewwyn's shortlist looks OK to me, even if I feel Jowy and Serdoa also need to step it up a little."

Against me, http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid431355
Matt, http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid431358
MJW, http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid431359
Votes Lewwyn, http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid431371
Matt, http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid431388
http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid431392

And in the end vote out of nowhere on Serdoa, which I already talked about.

[Meiz]

I think it would be fair to assume, that in 2 scum game, especially on say 1 scum want to keep their voting options open.

say = day

[zakalwe]

So you think I wanted to get all those people lynched? Without even following the links, I'm pretty sure not all of those posts can fairly be classified as strong suspicions, and they are certainly not all votes. I was probing and I wasn't afraid to move my vote around. With you, Lewwyn, and MJW insisting on lynching me, I also did feel some pressure to come up with a better candidate than me. My philosophy as town is to be honest, post a lot, give people insight into my thought processes, and trust my fellow team mates to read me as town. But I guess my trust may have been misplaced.

[Meiz]

No I'm not saying that. I just think scum would have wanted to keep their vote options open for day 1, and your play fits to that perfectly. novice and GoreRipper where driving themselves in a situation where not voting Serdoa would look bad. This is basically all you said about Serdoa, "I'm willing to give Serdoa a bit more time to contribute before I vote to lynch him, though. He just hasn't given me enough to read him as town yet. If he's town and finds the time to step it up a little, I think it may shine through. (I'm not saying we can't lynch him today. But I don't feel like voting for him right now.)"

For me that simply makes you the most likely scum, with novice and GoreRipper being other options for me.

(I mistakenly added you suspecting Jkaen btw.)

[zakalwe]

I have really hard time seeing GoreRipper and Serdoa working together as scum.

Why is that so hard? Goreripper parked his vote on Serdoa but didn't push him a lot, and did look for other places to put his vote when the deadline approached. His problem was that two of the main candidates (MJW and me) were people he had been reading as innocent. Serdoa never once mentioned Goreripper until his big post 221, six hours before the deadline.

In that post, he did start out with a minor attack on Goreripper:

Ok, finally re-read while I should work. First few quotes that stuck out:

I am not saying I agree with his [=MJW] attack on Zakalwe. Or even can understand it without my head hurting. But I do not see it as pretty scummy.

That post makes no sense to me. You claim you don't agree with MJWs attack on zak nor that you can even understand it, yet it is not scummy? Is a non-understandable attack that one does not agree with not the exact description of a scummy attack?

I found MJW's attack on Zak scummy because it seems to me he was reaching for reasons to accuse Zak. He says that Zak is scummy because he doesn't show appropriate regret for suggesting a rule correction that disfavours town. It's an inane accusation - the rule was obviously bad, the resulting disfavour to town very slight, and was Zak really supposed to post "woe is villager me and all my compatriots, for having to accept this rule change"?

MJW's behaviour is reminiscent of the game where he pursued Zak for a whole day for a hypothetical suggestion of "no lynch". Zak and MJW were both scum in that game, but the point is that scum MJW loves to find himself a metacase drum to keep beating so that he doesn't have to make actual meaningful contributions.

novices post here is explaining very well what that attack of MJW actually was, and reading this I can even less understand why Goreripper would not agree, not understand but yet not find it scummy. If you don't agree with MJWs point that zak should not as easily agree to a rule-change and if you don't even understand how MJW could come to the idea to attack someone for that the logical conclusion seems for me to find that attack scummy. The logical conclusion for me is not to attack the one who points out that the attack is scummy when I actually agree with him.

Basically what I try to say is that Goreripper imo stated implicit that he found MJWs attack scummy but explicit that he didn't.

This should count in Goreripper's favor, but this passage also serves to reinforce people's suspicions against MJW. Besides, it's not the main thrust of his attack, which comes after, against Jkaen. He also spends much time in that post on discrediting any nightkill-based theories, which can be read as an attempt to undermine Jowy's case against Goreripper. (I also criticized the nightkill-based theories, but I'm not scum with Goreripper.)

When his attack on Jkaen went nowhere, MJW didn't get any more traction, and nobody picked up on Meiz or Jowy, he had to vote for Goreripper. He was running out of options if he wanted to maintain credibility.

I'm not saying there's a smoking gun, but it should certainly be worth considering.

novice and GoreRipper where driving themselves in a situation where not voting Serdoa would look bad.

I can agree with this, but in Goreripper's case the main part of that predicament was his early decisions to read MJW and me as innocent. He probably did not expect us to be very hot lynch candidates. As I said, his Jowy vote can be seen as an attempt to break out of the constraints he had set for himself.

On another note, we don't know what Goreripper's playstyle as scum is. When I play scum with Azza, which has happened a few times, I keep tearing my hair out, because he's just so ruthlessly aggressive with the distancing, which I feel is often counterproductive. But in the end, it often sees him through to victory. Goreripper could be like Azza, preferring to have his alibi in order first and foremost, before he looks for an opportunity to secure a mislynch.

[zakalwe]

Novice, how do you stand now? Why do (or did) you prefer Meiz over Goreripper?

[novice]

On day one Meiz felt like he was sitting on the fence, whereas Goreripper was outspoken and natural afaict. So my gut says Meiz over Goreripper (and Zak as town due to his activity level). Meiz was also the main proponent of a MJW lynch on day two.

I need to reread though.

[novice]

I have really hard time seeing GoreRipper and Serdoa working together as scum.

Why is that so hard? Goreripper parked his vote on Serdoa but didn't push him a lot, and did look for other places to put his vote when the deadline approached. His problem was that two of the main candidates (MJW and me) were people he had been reading as innocent. Serdoa never once mentioned Goreripper until his big post 221, six hours before the deadline.

In that post, he did start out with a minor attack on Goreripper:

Ok, finally re-read while I should work. First few quotes that stuck out:

I am not saying I agree with his [=MJW] attack on Zakalwe. Or even can understand it without my head hurting. But I do not see it as pretty scummy.

That post makes no sense to me. You claim you don't agree with MJWs attack on zak nor that you can even understand it, yet it is not scummy? Is a non-understandable attack that one does not agree with not the exact description of a scummy attack?

I found MJW's attack on Zak scummy because it seems to me he was reaching for reasons to accuse Zak. He says that Zak is scummy because he doesn't show appropriate regret for suggesting a rule correction that disfavours town. It's an inane accusation - the rule was obviously bad, the resulting disfavour to town very slight, and was Zak really supposed to post "woe is villager me and all my compatriots, for having to accept this rule change"?

MJW's behaviour is reminiscent of the game where he pursued Zak for a whole day for a hypothetical suggestion of "no lynch". Zak and MJW were both scum in that game, but the point is that scum MJW loves to find himself a metacase drum to keep beating so that he doesn't have to make actual meaningful contributions.

novices post here is explaining very well what that attack of MJW actually was, and reading this I can even less understand why Goreripper would not agree, not understand but yet not find it scummy. If you don't agree with MJWs point that zak should not as easily agree to a rule-change and if you don't even understand how MJW could come to the idea to attack someone for that the logical conclusion seems for me to find that attack scummy. The logical conclusion for me is not to attack the one who points out that the attack is scummy when I actually agree with him.

Basically what I try to say is that Goreripper imo stated implicit that he found MJWs attack scummy but explicit that he didn't.

This should count in Goreripper's favor, but this passage also serves to reinforce people's suspicions against MJW. Besides, it's not the main thrust of his attack, which comes after, against Jkaen. He also spends much time in that post on discrediting any nightkill-based theories, which can be read as an attempt to undermine Jowy's case against Goreripper. (I also criticized the nightkill-based theories, but I'm not scum with Goreripper.)

When his attack on Jkaen went nowhere, MJW didn't get any more traction, and nobody picked up on Meiz or Jowy, he had to vote for Goreripper. He was running out of options if he wanted to maintain credibility.

I'm not saying there's a smoking gun, but it should certainly be worth considering.

novice and GoreRipper where driving themselves in a situation where not voting Serdoa would look bad.

I can agree with this, but in Goreripper's case the main part of that predicament was his early decisions to read MJW and me as innocent. He probably did not expect us to be very hot lynch candidates. As I said, his Jowy vote can be seen as an attempt to break out of the constraints he had set for himself.

On another note, we don't know what Goreripper's playstyle as scum is. When I play scum with Azza, which has happened a few times, I keep tearing my hair out, because he's just so ruthlessly aggressive with the distancing, which I feel is often counterproductive. But in the end, it often sees him through to victory. Goreripper could be like Azza, preferring to have his alibi in order first and foremost, before he looks for an opportunity to secure a mislynch.

And what did Serdoa say about Meiz? What was his reaction when you mentioned suspecting Meiz? (Honest questions)

The bold part implicates Meiz more than Gore IMO.

[Meiz]

Novice if you think GoreRipper is town, how does Serdoa's vote on GoreRipper mean anything regarding me? I had zero votes on me.

[novice]

Novice if you think GoreRipper is town, how does Serdoa's vote on GoreRipper mean anything regarding me? I had zero votes on me.

Zakalwe described a situation where Serdoa had painted himself into a corner and had to vote Goreripper. I don't think Serdoa painted himself into a corner.