RB Pitboss #1 SPOILER - Hatshepsut / India

[regoarrarr]

Response from shady

You have correctly identified my concerns with your plan but you have alleviated neither of them.

- Why should I believe you are willing to betray Elkad in my favour in the "second wave" when you are clearly unwilling to do so now?

- If it's true that Imhotep, Munro and Kodii are bit part players not interested in winning the game, then that makes them kingmakers who are on our side and whose land, GNP and resources are at our disposal already anyway. Why on earth would we want to turn on them? Why would we need to?

In general, you want the kingmakers on your side and you want to turn on a selection of the players who are in it to win it - enough that your chances of winning improve but not so much that the victim alliance is stronger.

There are too many cooks in your suggested plan and the wrong people are on the pointy end of the stick.

Here is a speculative counter proposal: Me, you and Daniel on a team, Elkad definitely the victim since all 3 of us can crush him militarily and he has lands we can all expand into. Imhotep and Munro can be left behind technologically, we get 2 others of Broker, Sunrise, Kodii and Yaz on our side, probably the 2 best researchers. I'd be inclined to leave Yaz out because of his large land area - he'll be a threat down the line. But I'd be inclined to include Kodii because his researching is valuable to us but since he is not too interested in the game, we get the benefit of a 5th person to research while mentaining our chances of winning as 1 in 4 (and 1 in 3 if you take into account that I'm not holding much hope for a win either). I would chose Broker over Sunrise because Broker techs better and is not a good a player as Sunrise but I understand that you have to live with him in PB2 - so I am open to suggestion there.

Thoughts?

[novice]

Ok well it seems likely that I accidentally clicked on auto-explore with those units and they moved at the start of the turn. How irritating.

No, actually I think it worked out great!!!!

Won't this needlessly piss shadyforce off?

[regoarrarr]

Won't this needlessly piss shadyforce off?

Perhaps? I didn't think it was that tweaky - more in the general back and forth banter we've been having.

Guess we'll see - I don't plan on retracting it

[novice]

Just seems to me from the email thread that he was on the verge of (correct english?) requesting a reload, and you're trying to convince him to break up an alliance. I would have thought a word of sympathy would have been in order, but of course, only if it's genuine

[regoarrarr]

Reply back to shady - kind of an interim wait and see

I think it's a *bit* different betraying Elkad immediately, when he has given me immediate and substantive economic and military aid in my defense when "someone" declared war on me, vs. attacking him in 20-30 turns, as an 8 person alliance breaks up.

But... I do think that some of your points about how to choose who to attack are good ones and worth thinking about. Let me noodle on them a bit and get back with you

[regoarrarr]

Good chat with sunrise.

(11:25:18 AM) me: so a few things i want you to noodle on
(11:25:32 AM) me: hold on
(11:28:28 AM) me: ok
(11:28:37 AM) me: so 1 - imho has a coastal city with an impi and a cat on defense
(11:28:47 AM) me: i have a galley over there that i could boat with 2 maces
(11:28:55 AM) me: do you think i probably need to take a 2nd galley to be sure?
(11:29:28 AM) me: 2 - and keep this confidential from the rest of the UTA for now
(11:29:51 AM) me: i have made some overtures to shady about changing things to be everyone else v. imhotep, munro and kodii
(11:30:03 AM) me: i think it has a decent chance of being agreed to
(11:30:21 AM) me: and so if it does, you and i need to sit down and figure out how this can best work out for us
(11:30:27 AM) me: okay - scroll when you get back
(11:42:17 AM) sunrise089: back
(11:42:40 AM) sunrise089: sorry, I use google chrome for the pitboss games because its fast, but it doesnt do a good job at consistently alerting me when a new message is received
(11:43:05 AM) me: heh
(11:43:32 AM) sunrise089: ok
(11:43:42 AM) sunrise089: yes, i think you need a 2nd boat to be sure
(11:43:47 AM) me: that's what i was thinking
(11:44:10 AM) sunrise089: and I dont think you can game the unit order with mace+knight, because I think the cat will defend first against the mace
(11:44:20 AM) me: agreed
(11:44:22 AM) sunrise089: unless the city defense is very high I suppose
(11:44:34 AM) me: it's 20 i think but on a hill
(11:44:40 AM) sunrise089: but if you can only atttack with a single galley, and you have CRII maces, it is probably worth a try
(11:44:53 AM) me: i can get another galley in a few turns
(11:44:54 AM) sunrise089: so Attack with 2 -> Attack with 1 - > do not attack
(11:45:07 AM) sunrise089: next, obviously changing the alliance system would be huge
(11:45:11 AM) me: right
(11:45:15 AM) sunrise089: is that because they fear kodii will run away with the game?
(11:45:22 AM) me: no
(11:45:34 AM) me: i've been having dialogue with shady for awhile
(11:46:12 AM) me: how i put it in my last email
(11:46:23 AM) me: was to get rid of the people who have said they don't reallyw ant to play anymore
(11:46:29 AM) me: with the idea that they'll probably put up less of a fight
(11:46:50 AM) me: one of his main concerns i thought would be the risk that after the 8 of us are left, that the original UTA would turn on him, dsp and yaz
(11:46:54 AM) me: which i think is a possibility
(11:47:09 AM) me: but i think it's also reasonable that it comes down to maybe you, me, shady, dsp and broker vs the other 3
(11:47:13 AM) me: something like that
(11:47:17 AM) me: which is what i told him in the email
(11:51:00 AM) sunrise089: hmm
(11:51:25 AM) sunrise089: well even if the 5 of us turned on the three of them, we would have like the three weakest civs of the 8 on our side, so that's something
(11:51:56 AM) me: i don't know how it will play out after the original 3 are gone but i just thought that it was reasonable that it wouldn't just be automatically UTA vs. them
(11:51:57 AM) sunrise089: I mean, it's hard to see how the alliances would work out
(11:52:01 AM) me: right
(11:52:10 AM) me: and IMO that's enough to get him to switch
(11:52:15 AM) me: or at least think about it
(11:52:16 AM) sunrise089: on the flip side, land wise shady and dsp benefit a ton from such a war
(11:52:31 AM) me: right - we would have to come up with some sort of way to balance out the lands
(11:52:54 AM) me: since obviously the teams that are near the eliminated teams benefit the most
(11:53:01 AM) sunrise089: I certainly hope I dont have to flight the Lins in a war later....diplo aside, we have a pretty messy border to try to defend...I'd have to try to burn the 2 border cities right away
(11:53:07 AM) me: though they also contain the most risk, since they will have to be supplying the most troops
(11:53:17 AM) sunrise089: right - little risk to me
(11:53:22 AM) me: right
(11:53:29 AM) me: anyway i wanted to keep you posted
(11:53:30 AM) sunrise089: you border Imho? shady and dsp obviously borderr the otrher three
(11:53:32 AM) sunrise089: broker does
(11:53:39 AM) me: but i'd rather not bring it up to broker / lins / elkad just yet
(11:53:42 AM) me: yes i border imho
(11:53:43 AM) sunrise089: do the Lins or Krill?
(11:53:49 AM) me: yaz borders imho
(11:53:57 AM) me: yaz has like 50 cities - he borders everone
(11:54:12 AM) me: i think the lins (and i know broker) borders kodii
(11:54:25 AM) sunrise089: but elkad doesnt right?
(11:54:29 AM) me: he might
(11:54:31 AM) sunrise089: so elkad and I would be the backline civs
(11:54:37 AM) me: let me see if i can dig up a map
(11:54:43 AM) me: though i have a mtg at 12
(11:55:09 AM) sunrise089: so question - hypothetically were you thinking of a 6-way attack, or having boker+the lins, you+yaz, and dsp+shady go in, or 1 epic army?
(11:55:30 AM) me: i was thinking more along the lines of multiple coordinated attacks
(11:55:40 AM) me: so me shady and dsp take out imhotep
(11:55:50 AM) me: broker and elkad take out munro
(11:55:58 AM) me: yaz and lins take out kodii
(11:56:00 AM) me: something like that
(11:56:34 AM) me: grr most of my images i've cropped out the minimap
(11:56:49 AM) me: all right i gotta go
(11:56:52 AM) me: be back around 1-130
(11:57:46 AM) sunrise089: ok, see ya
(1:08:57 PM) me: back
(1:08:57 PM) sunrise089 <AUTO-REPLY> : lunch
(2:38:32 PM) me: hey
(3:38:04 PM) sunrise089: hey
(3:38:04 PM) me <AUTO-REPLY> : I'm not here right now
(3:38:13 PM) sunrise089: looks like shady somehow "mismoved"
(4:14:27 PM) me: yeah
(4:14:30 PM) me: how convenient (for us)
(4:17:40 PM) sunrise089: I'm trying to stay positive on shafy
(4:17:42 PM) sunrise089: *shady
(4:18:04 PM) sunrise089: in MP ladder people would be screaming bloody murder that he's trying to get the move undone because he doesnt like the outcome
(4:22:00 PM) me: missed you again?
(4:22:19 PM) me: it doesn't seem like he's trying to get the move undone
(4:22:26 PM) me: at least to me
(4:22:37 PM) me: at least i did not hear him calling for a reload
(4:23:29 PM) sunrise089: fair enough
(4:23:41 PM) sunrise089: actually, if shady does switch sides, Imhotep will suspect this was all a ruse.
(4:23:48 PM) me: right
(4:23:53 PM) sunrise089: After all, it's very "convenient" that his ally got hammered while he didnt loose a thing
(4:24:01 PM) me: i will forward you shady's response to my proposal
(4:24:41 PM) sunrise089: ok
(4:27:11 PM) me: sent
(4:27:22 PM) me: i also emailed imhotep today - trying to prime the "anti-shady" fires he migth have
(4:27:34 PM) me: and suggesting a me, him and elkad v. shady attack
(4:29:38 PM) sunrise089: oh course, with no Imho army that probably isnt too likely
(4:29:43 PM) me: right
(4:29:49 PM) me: i told him i didn't know what kind of army he had left
(4:29:57 PM) me: but i figured he could whip up something, pardon the pun
(4:30:28 PM) sunrise089: who is Daniel?
(4:30:33 PM) me: dsp
(4:30:36 PM) me: daniel s. plaisted
(4:30:45 PM) sunrise089: only half way through hte Shady response, but Shady is way off
(4:30:46 PM) me: also me, but not in this context
(4:30:51 PM) sunrise089: it isnt important that he has more allies
(4:31:11 PM) sunrise089: it's important to try and get more land to have a shot at actually winning, not just having your alliance winning
(4:31:44 PM) sunrise089: shady tried attacking you, it failed. Naturally its time to consider other targets, including the underpowered civ next to him that just lost his entire army
(4:32:07 PM) me: and it can certainly be argued that his alliance is not winning
(4:32:29 PM) me: i do think what he said makes sense about not necessarily getting rid of imho / ruff right now, since we can leave them behind and take them out whenever we want
(4:32:46 PM) me: i'm composing my reply now
(4:32:53 PM) sunrise089: I dont even agree with that
(4:32:54 PM) me: and i started off with I think it's a *bit* different betraying Elkad immediately, when he has given me immediate and substantive economic and military aid in my defense when "someone" declared war on me, vs. attacking him in 20-30 turns, as an 8 person alliance breaks up.
(4:33:03 PM) me: okay - that's fair - you ceratinly have played more mp civ than me
(4:33:05 PM) sunrise089: shady is what position in land/pop/number of cities/infrastructure?
(4:33:18 PM) me: i would say 5 or 6
(4:33:27 PM) me: i'd say the top folks are me, yaz, kodii and dsp
(4:33:35 PM) sunrise089: ok, that's fair
(4:33:42 PM) me: i would put him in the middle tier with you, broker, elkad and maybe the lins
(4:33:43 PM) sunrise089: i agree with Yaz, you, and Kodii
(4:33:49 PM) me: ruff and imho on bottom
(4:34:01 PM) me: dsp has like 11 cities and the lighthouse
(4:34:15 PM) me: which will soon(ish) be expiring
(4:34:29 PM) sunrise089: eh...I'm on bottom with them, but I think I have more of a shot at getting to the middle courtesy of spectacular land per average tile combined with the best traits from this point of the game forward...if I stay alive
(4:34:43 PM) me: i was being polite
(4:34:50 PM) me: nah not really i think you're definitely ahead of ruff/imho
(4:34:58 PM) sunrise089: anyways...
(4:35:02 PM) me: not to mention probably the best MP player in the game
(4:35:09 PM) me: "mr. top 20" :-P
(4:35:21 PM) me: (though i saw you were down to 25) but you're right in saying anyways....
(4:35:43 PM) sunrise089: point is for shady to have a chance of winning he needs to get in the top land/etc group...and attacking you isnt working. Imho gets him there right away
(4:36:33 PM) me: so here's a question for you - why do YOU want shady and i to attack imhotep? other than helping out your #1 ally
(4:36:47 PM) sunrise089: I'm also not sure that broker researches faster than me....he certainly will have more cities, but I'm not sure his non-modified commerce is better than mine
(4:37:13 PM) sunrise089: exclusively to help out my number 1 ally
(4:37:16 PM) sunrise089: well not exclusivily
(4:37:53 PM) sunrise089: I also want rid of Imho's tactical knowledge - I still feel Imho has got to be better than Krill if he could actually log in enough and get his team to work closely
(4:38:48 PM) me: well he techs better than you because you run 100% gold
(4:39:00 PM) sunrise089: but look, I've got a nice long NAP with Yaz, and I'm no threat to him later. I will have like zero science capability the entire game, so I should be left to live. I've got a narrow choke point with you and Elkad, so my biggest military worry is a Lin invasion
(4:39:17 PM) me: and not that helping your #1 ally is not a valid reason
(4:39:30 PM) me: and i'll say it again - i'm with you
(4:39:33 PM) me: i'm taking you as long as i can
(4:39:51 PM) sunrise089: so when weighing the factors, I feel my best chance to live to the end of the game (my goal) is to get you strong and then in a good NAP, so you can sail over dozens of units to defend me from the Lins if needed
(4:39:55 PM) me: when shady talked about taking either you or broker, it wasn't even a choice for me (if this plan were to even come to pass)
(4:39:58 PM) me: and i like broker a lot
(4:45:58 PM) me: chrome?
(4:46:17 PM) sunrise089: no, I'm here
(4:46:20 PM) sunrise089: sorry, I was typing
(4:46:22 PM) me: no prob
(4:46:41 PM) sunrise089: well you got my justification for favoring a strong regoarrarr, right?
(4:46:45 PM) me: yes
(4:46:54 PM) me: and i am ALL for a strong regoarrarr!
(4:47:26 PM) sunrise089: ok, and I see what you were saying
(4:47:36 PM) sunrise089: well I appreciate your continued support
(4:47:50 PM) me: we're going to the end
(4:47:53 PM) me: i got a good feelin about this game
(4:48:07 PM) sunrise089: another reason to favor you - my economy will be partially driven by the Hindu religion and coastal cities- I'd prefer you to spread the former and not have to worry about defending the latter
(4:48:19 PM) me: yeah
(4:48:25 PM) me: speaking of those i was thinking about building UoS
(4:48:29 PM) me: for the priest economy
(4:48:45 PM) sunrise089: you should definitely make sankore - you have monestaries, right?
(4:48:53 PM) me: in many cities
(4:48:56 PM) sunrise089: maybe I should make Spiral Mineret though
(4:49:10 PM) me: i need broker's stone
(4:49:12 PM) sunrise089: though I can see why you'd like that one as well
(4:49:23 PM) me: well if you're the gold man
(4:49:25 PM) sunrise089: AP religion building, plus sankore+spiral would be amazing
(4:49:28 PM) me: it makes sense for yout oo
(4:49:39 PM) sunrise089: but right - modifier sense it makes more sense for me to make spiral
(4:50:01 PM) sunrise089: I have to see if I have the hammers for it though....I dont have 10 good cities to spare for wonder builds
(4:50:19 PM) me: well DR is a ways off
(4:50:24 PM) me: well i guess not necessarily
(4:50:28 PM) me: but practically anyways
(4:50:47 PM) me: and it could be useful for you to have another holy city
(4:51:33 PM) me: all right i gotta get headin home

We talked a bit about shady's email, which I forwarded to him, and declared our undying love for each other, but did you catch the best part?

(4:39:51 PM) sunrise089: so when weighing the factors, I feel my best chance to live to the end of the game (my goal) is to get you strong and then in a good NAP, so you can sail over dozens of units to defend me from the Lins if needed

If his goal is to only get to the end of the game, and not to win, then he's my perfect ally (which is what I've been driving for for awhile but it's nice to see him say it). That's the perfect way to win games like these - take advantage of people who aren't trying to win. And I don't mean take advantage in a bad way. In fact, it's in a very good way. Me winning with him as my right-hand man makes us both achieve our goals in this game, and it's a win-win. Synergistic to steal a little Stephen Covey I achieve my goal of winning, and he achieves his goal of going to the end of the game.

[regoarrarr]

Mostly for myself to reference when I'm away from my Civ computer but also for any lurkers - here is a globe shot



Apologies for all my signs being in the way - I can't figure out how to turn them off. I have attempted to draw in approximate borders. Keep in my mind that my map may not be completely accurate, especially in NUTA lands, so I've tried to at least take a guess.

[regoarrarr]

Okay so hopefully that big picture satisfied your need for pictures, because this post will be a lot of text. I know as a lurker that's not quite as interesting but I'm putting this in here mostly for my own benefit but also to illustrate the type of planning that in my opinion is close to if not essential to win these types of games.

So consider this a T137 mini-State of the Empire / Planning post (or series of posts)

When trying to come up with objectives for the next 5-10 turns, I broke it into the following sections

1) Wonders
2) War
3) Expansion and infrastructure, especially religious buildings

1 - Wonders: I have under construction or soon to be under construction, the following wonders - University of Sankore (good synergy with my AP hammer bonus to all religious buildings), Heroic Epic, Moai Statues and Globe Theater.

2 - War: With the HE and GT, that should take care of most of my military needs. I do need additional support troops like cats and spies. But the time has come for me to go on the offense - I will be loading 2 galleys with maces and undertaking a surgical strike on the Zulu city of Helcaraxe. Galleys are already loaded - ETA for burnage is T140.

Expansion / Infra: 9 workers, fast as they may be, is not enough for 12 cities. In addition I have several good spots, both interior to my core as well as sealing some of my borders. For infrastructure purposes, I want to focus on religious buildings, since they get a 2 hammer bonus and if I land UoS, will also get a 2 beaker bonus. Currently I have Hinduism in 7 of my 12 cities, and have a total of 5 Monasteries and 1 Temple complete.

[regoarrarr]

T137 mini-State of the Empire / Planning series, Post 2

Cities

So, with those goals in mind, I did a review of my cities. I will not bore you with the turn grids I made. Normally I'd use Excel, but it's hard for me to tab in and out of the game, so I just wrote it in pencil.

But here's a recap

Cincinnati - on Hindu Temple. That will finish on T140, at which point it will start on UoS. I have already requested Broker's stone on T140, and he has agreed, in exchange for Mason's marble starting on T142. I will also chop the remaining (3rd ring) forest into UoS. With forge, OR, bureaucracy (swapping back on T138), and stone, each hammer counts as 3 to the 550 hammer wonder.

Green Twp - I interrupted its Knight build to start on the Heroic Epic here. It's as good as any of my hammer cities, and it's close to my (perma?) enemy of shadyforce. Currently due in 5 but I believe I'll have it in 4 with growth and tile re-config. After it's done I'll send my marble to Broker

Whitewater - Globe done on T141 - I've already chopped 4 forests into it and there are 2 workers ready to chop the remaining 2. 1 worker is farming irrigation up from Green's river.

Fairfield - Slowly growing and working cottages. Currently working on a Hindu Temple, due in 7.

Norwood - Size 6 and also working cottages while building a mace. Next turn I will swap to Hindu Missionary, then whip it, and overflow to complete the mace. The missionary will spend the next 3 turns moving 17 tiles to Mason.

Harrison - On a lighthouse here - I may build another settler next. Love to build religious buildings if I can get a spread

Terrace Park - On a cat (33/50) - next turn swap to a worker and then whip it and overflow to complete the cat.

Blue Ash - On a worker, which will complete T140. It will then chop a forest into another worker, due on T143

Arlington Heights - On a settler, which will complete with 1 chop on T142 and then settle T143.

Lockland - On a Hindu Monastery, which I will whip next turn, overflow into a Hindu Temple, which gets whipped T140, and then overflow into Moai, due on T146. Scheduled to be Hammer City west.

Mason - On a forge - with marble and 4 hills, this will be Hammer City north. Will be building buildings for the next few builds (forge / Hindu Temple / Monastery and possibly lighthouse), which is why it's getting the missionary

Loveland - Finishing up the Granary.

New city - which will go just north of Cincinnati near the sheep. Workers readying the sheep and also starting on the fort which will connect East Fork Lake with the yet un-named sea towards Yaz

[regoarrarr]

T137 mini-State of the Empire / Planning series, post 3

Workers

Amy - moved to the forested hill near Whitewater - next 3 turns will chop the forest into the Globe, then farm / irrigate

Brooke - At Fairfield, she is chopping jungle near the city, then will mine another grass hill and then start cottaging.

Carolyn - Farming / Irrigating towards Whitewater

Debbie - Just built a road on the marble, she'll spend a free turn forting, then chop Cincinnati's forest into UoS

Elena - Chopping into the settler at Arlington

Freida - toiling in Broker-ville

Gina - She will spend her free turn forting, then road and pasture the new city's sheep

Harriette - Mining a grass hill at Mason

Ingrid - Free turn forting, then chop the new city site's forest (24 hammers into Harrison)

Julia - Chopping the final forest into the globe, then irrigating

Kennedy - born in Blue Ash T140 - she will chop into a worker at Blue Ash, then chop into Moai

Lucy - born in Terrace Park T140 - will improve Terrace Park / Norwood

Monica - born in Blue Ash T143 - will spend the next 4 turns constructing the Blue Ash - new city road.