[SPOILER] The Steak, Beer, and Cigar Saloon

[Dhalphir]

What are your plans to leverage PHI?

[Catwalk]

And now I'm spoiled with lurkers all of a sudden Sometimes pitiful begging does help! Thanks all, I appreciate it.

Ceiliazul, almost but not quite! I'll keep you guessing for a little bit, but obviously it's in that general direction.

haphazard1, good to see you again I have fond memories of you dedlurking my first game, where I felt I did somewhat decently before being clobbered by evil Ceiliazul. The green dot is definitely just a filler city, but I think it will do okay as such. If I land Colossus, adding FIN on top makes sites like that one valuable to me. I'm also not real sure on my second city, scouting has revealed nothing extra for it so far. My current micro has my first warrior arriving on t28, I may need to speed this up in order to explore the west sooner while my scout goes east. Planning on settler being done t36 (after work boat, worker, worker, warrior). East has nothing good short-term so far, but nice long-term potential. Very unsure about expansion plans right now, will definitely depend on further scouting.

Dhalphir, welcome to you as well! My plans to leverage PHI are mainly to use FIN instead I think I mentioned earlier that I'll play it as a FIN game and try to remember to get a few GPs early on. If I land the colossus as planned, I think I'll work an engineer for a 60% shot at GE and 40% shot at GM for my first one. After that, maybe run engineer + two scientists (doable since my food surplus is eight) and hope for anything but a merchant. I like merchants for trade missions, but I don't think I want one this early. GE is top of my wishlist as it's a guaranteed wonder, and GS will do nicely to prop up my already very decent commerce capital. If I get a GM first, should I settle it in my capital? Means I lose out a little on science multipliers later on.

[haphazard1]

Green dot can be more than just a filler. Even if there is nothing else in the fog (and there might be something, or possibly hidden metal or horses), a simple fishing village with seafood and coastline is well worth having as a FIN civ even if you do not get Colossus. With the big bronze statue it would of course be even better. But do not discount how useful a fishing village can be for generating commerce. The fish will provide enough food for decent growth, which will allow regular whipping for infrastructure and even the occasional unit (ship or whatever you need). If the city can occasionally borrow the crabs as well, then it will have huge growth and could be whipped even more aggressively, or used for running specialists to take advantage of your PHI trait. Green dot is likely to be a valuable city.

Still, it is probably in your back lines and safe to leave for later. Unless that land connects to something further south, in which case you will need to prioritize it as a choke point. But probably it is a peninsula. Like every other direction, it needs more scouting.

On FIN and PHI, I like your plan to mostly focus on FIN. With all that lovely river grass at the capital it would be a shame not to pile on FIN cottages all over the place. Hopefully there will be another high food site you can develop as a great person farm, so you don't have to tie up your capital with specialists when you want to be developing cottages for future Bureaucracy-fueled commerce. Green dot could sort of work if it took the crabs full time (or has another food in the fog), but hopefully there is something better somewhere.

[Dhalphir]

I'm a big fan of using an early Writing in a very food heavy city to crank out a very fast Academy. As I recall it's the tactic Spulla used to great effect with Lizzie in PB2.

Regarding GMs - I have always felt that GMs are a strong candidate for settling early on in the game, as are Great Prophets if you don't need a shrine and can't bulb an expensive tech. The exception would be if you are expanding very very fast and your economy can't keep up - a well timed GM trade mission to a neighbour to help me burn through to Currency while choking under maintenance has saved me in many a SP Emperor game.

[Catwalk]

Green dot can be more than just a filler. Even if there is nothing else in the fog (and there might be something, or possibly hidden metal or horses), a simple fishing village with seafood and coastline is well worth having as a FIN civ even if you do not get Colossus. With the big bronze statue it would of course be even better. But do not discount how useful a fishing village can be for generating commerce. The fish will provide enough food for decent growth, which will allow regular whipping for infrastructure and even the occasional unit (ship or whatever you need). If the city can occasionally borrow the crabs as well, then it will have huge growth and could be whipped even more aggressively, or used for running specialists to take advantage of your PHI trait. Green dot is likely to be a valuable city.

Still, it is probably in your back lines and safe to leave for later. Unless that land connects to something further south, in which case you will need to prioritize it as a choke point. But probably it is a peninsula. Like every other direction, it needs more scouting.

Yeah, it's not bad by any means. And it does have decent forests to make up for its lack of production. What do you think about the Moai plan? Will expend all its forests on it (provided I find rocks), but also negate the need for a monument. I'm quite certain there's no land bridge down there, I'm moving my scout NE from now on. The river plains tiles aren't bad either, I'll have +9 food from the seafood so I should be able to utilize them nicely and compensate a bit for the lack of mines. This spot is definitely growing on me as an important commerce city, especially with Colossus of course.

On FIN and PHI, I like your plan to mostly focus on FIN. With all that lovely river grass at the capital it would be a shame not to pile on FIN cottages all over the place. Hopefully there will be another high food site you can develop as a great person farm, so you don't have to tie up your capital with specialists when you want to be developing cottages for future Bureaucracy-fueled commerce. Green dot could sort of work if it took the crabs full time (or has another food in the fog), but hopefully there is something better somewhere.

I guess I should plan a GP farm, yeah. I have a hunch that the map will be slightly resource starved, at least compared to last time I played. Has RB gone down a little on resource quantity preferences? I wouldn't mind any, I feel that most maps have been way too generous. On a related note, here is an imaginary dotmap to show my cottage master plan:

Each peon city around the capital can chip in with a few cottages. The capital is only required to work one cottage at any given time once the rest of the cities are set up, allowing for rapid commercial maturity and great awesomeness potential once I have Bureaucracy and a generous happy cap. I'm not sure how much use that dotmap actually is, I'm rusty The X is to show that I won't be able to work that tile, I don't think that's a big loss. I can easily move orange city one down, a city somewhere further north would be able to help with one of the cottages that orange would skip.

I'm a big fan of using an early Writing in a very food heavy city to crank out a very fast Academy. As I recall it's the tactic Spulla used to great effect with Lizzie in PB2.

That is definitely an option, and it's a safe one. Results are guaranteed, and the payoff is decent. How do you feel it compares to the Colossus plan? Short-term payoff with no risk vs long-term payoff with some risk. The Colossus plan has the added advantage that it propels me towards Mausoleum of Mausollos, as I'd be certain of getting an engineer (rather than a 60% chance). Both would work wonders for my strategy, pardon the pun. Do you think I should combine an early GS with either of these plans, or just scrap the plan and play it safe? I'm open to all suggestions.

Regarding GMs - I have always felt that GMs are a strong candidate for settling early on in the game, as are Great Prophets if you don't need a shrine and can't bulb an expensive tech. The exception would be if you are expanding very very fast and your economy can't keep up - a well timed GM trade mission to a neighbour to help me burn through to Currency while choking under maintenance has saved me in many a SP Emperor game.

I'm a little wary of settling gold specialists in my capital if I plan on turning it into a science haven later on. I'd actually prefer settling it in a peon city instead, as that'd let me crank the science slider higher for better multiplier usage. I like trade missions, especially somewhat early on. It usually gives far more beakers than bulbing:

Great Scientist = 1500 + 3x population in beakers = 1650 early on
Other Specialist = 1000 + 2x population in beakers = 1100 early on
Trade mission = 500 + 2x trade value in gold = 900 early on

Doesn't look so impressive, but two things make me prefer trade missions:
1) Extra beakers are wasted when bulbing, you always get the full value on a trade mission. Most early techs cost way less than the bulbing potential, making bulbing a weaker option than a trade mission most of the time (assuming you'd be able to get a merchant).
2) Gold is worth more than beakers because of all the tech multipliers you get, typically 100 gold will convert into at least 150 beakers. It will take a bit of time, but usually your deficit will be so large that it's easy to burn through a trade mission in just a few turns.

[haphazard1]

Yeah, it's not bad by any means. And it does have decent forests to make up for its lack of production.

With the seafood available (fish and maybe sometimes borrowing crabs), the city will have the for production. Forests can be chopped as needed to get it started or for special projects (Moai or whatever), but the city will never have much in the way of base hammers. (Unless you build Moai there, of course.) But it shouldn't need it, with the .

What do you think about the Moai plan? Will expend all its forests on it (provided I find rocks), but also negate the need for a monument. I'm quite certain there's no land bridge down there, I'm moving my scout NE from now on. The river plains tiles aren't bad either, I'll have +9 food from the seafood so I should be able to utilize them nicely and compensate a bit for the lack of mines. This spot is definitely growing on me as an important commerce city, especially with Colossus of course.

If you find stone, Moai could be very strong in green dot. But I would not plan for Moai just to avoid a monument -- Moai is a very large investment just to skip building a monument. Still, you are right that I had not really considered the need for a monument to get the city's borders popped so the seafood can be worked -- I am a fan of fishing villages for FIN civs and got enthusiatic about the site without thinking it through carefully enough. You could chop a forest to get a monument done, with the city working a plains forest for a workboat while waiting for the borders to pop, but that still gives a sizable delay before the city can really start growing and paying off. Without a forest chop it is even slower. Definitely moves the site down the priority list.

I'm a big fan of using an early Writing in a very food heavy city to crank out a very fast Academy. As I recall it's the tactic Spulla used to great effect with Lizzie in PB2.

That is definitely an option, and it's a safe one. Results are guaranteed, and the payoff is decent. How do you feel it compares to the Colossus plan? Short-term payoff with no risk vs long-term payoff with some risk. The Colossus plan has the added advantage that it propels me towards Mausoleum of Mausollos, as I'd be certain of getting an engineer (rather than a 60% chance). Both would work wonders for my strategy, pardon the pun. Do you think I should combine an early GS with either of these plans, or just scrap the plan and play it safe? I'm open to all suggestions.

My biggest concern with the Colossus plan is that there are multiple IND civs in the game, and they will (or should!) all be prioritizing Metal Casting to get their cheap forges into action. The cheap forge and then IND factor for the wonder means they would also build the forge + Colossus much faster than you could once they have the tech. So the risk of going for Colossus is fairly high. (I am assuming everyone will have copper available.) It would have a nice payoff, but it would be risky.

You should definitely pursue an early GS for an academy -- you have PHI to speed the GS and a great commerce capital to use the academy. So if you go for Colossus, I would make it early GS + Colossus rather than just Colossus.

[Catwalk]

Hmm, maybe I'm getting too optimistic about my opponents' haplessness

I figure that the IND players will be prioritizing GLH and Pyramids, though. Oracle and Stonehenge as well. Unless you're FIN, Colossus just isn't that awesome. Jowy is FIN/IND, and I think he's the weakest of the IND players. I feel quite optimistic about my chances of beating him to Colossus through superior micro.

How valuable is the Colossus long-term? I think this depends on 2 factors:
1) How many coastal sites there are
2) How much land is available
I expect a lot of coastal sites based on what I've seen, and I know that there isn't much land available.

Second question is whether going for GS first then Colossus will set me back any in terms of landing the Colossus. It sets me back 184 hammers, and I doubt I'll get the academy fast enough to help me research Metal Casting. I guess I should sim both plans and find out. I definitely want an early academy, I'm just not sure if it's worth getting it that early.

[Catwalk]

Turn 4

Scouting reveals nothing much:

Great land for the future, but no help for our expansion decisions. I'm still keen on the PH/deer city, it offers me short-term speed and that's sufficient for now. I don't see any good sites to the east using wine and/or clams, the deer site is better than anything in that area.

My current micro gives me warriors on t28, t33 and t43 (not taking copper into consideration). Is this too risky? Settler will be done on t37, letting me do ample scouting in all directions before deciding. If anyone is interested, I can upload the sandbox and post the full micro. Also, if anyone wants to have a look at our civilization the password is:

kitty

[mackoti]

Never seen that many forests, from what i see ,mathemathics and workers are the key to victory.

[Catwalk]

Yeah, the amount of forests is crazy. I'm going two workers first and chopping a lot to speed up early production, there should be enough left once Mathematics arrives. It's tempting to make a bold wonder plan somewhere to the east, chopping it all out in a turn or two. Current micro cuts down 5 forests at the capital, leaving 5 for later use.