[Spoilers] Fintourist and Old Harry have nothing to see here

[suttree]

Hey all,

You've built an excellent thread here, but the story you seem to tell is very different from the story I experienced. For your entertainment, or not, here's a different perspective:

THE STORY OF SUTTREE THE MONKEY

or

SUTTREE IS AN IDIOT BUT NOT FOR THE REASONS YOU STATE

Chapter 1 - Suttree is an idiot

Once upon a time there was a little monkey and his name was Suttree-Monkey.
Suttree-Monkey had a dream to build a great civilization.
And so he put on his Big Boy Pants and Big Boy Hat and dreamed of the adventures he would have. What a funny monkey!
But Suttree was so busy dreaming and doing other things that he didn't pay attention to the Here and Now.
"Thinking is boring," he said in his Big Boy Voice, "I'll leave the proof as an exercise for the reader."
And so Suttree messed up on the very first turn!

Chapter 2 - Suttree grasps for straws

Suttree was sad and knew he was silly, but he did not give up.
Yuris the Owl lived to the south and while Owls are wise, they sometimes can be caught unawares.
And so Suttree put on his Pirate-Pants and Pirate-Hat and found a secret path by sea.
Pirate-Suttree was far away and he had gold to keep his Pirate-Army secret.
How surprised Yuris would be when his copper city burned the turn it was settled!
And all the nets at the capital too!

Chapter 3 - Mackoti is punished by Suttree's Idiocy

But Alas, Alack! Pirate-Suttree's neighbour was not Yuris-Owl!
It was Mack-iavelli the Fox!
And Mack-the-Fox knew that Suttree had Sailing.
He did not build nets at his capital.
He researched Archery instead of Writing and spent hammers on a precautionary archer too!
He settled as Suttree predicted, and there was a surprise,
But all Suttree could do was camp, hoot, holler, and fling poop like the Monkey he was.
And, eventually, Mack-the-Fox chased Suttree away.

Chapter 4 - Suttree Gives Up

Suttree-Monkey was sad and knew he was silly, and this time he gave up.
He had his Pirate-Army and his Pirate-Boat, and wasn't too far behind - but he had gained nothing.
For no good reason, he had forced his neighbour to chop archers, whip axes, and delay nets.
Poor Mack-the-Fox: what a waste!

Chapter 5 - Suttree Resolves to Build a Mountain of Poop

And so Suttree-Monkey diminished and withdrew.
He would log-in for sad months on end,
and he would build a mountain of poop,
and he would fling it at whomever tried to take it away.
Come Mackoti, Come M_H, Come Tweedle Harry and Tweedle Finn!
They would keep whatever land they settled, but no one would have Suttree-Monkey's Mountain of Poop!

Chapter 6 - Comments on the History of Mack-iavelli the Fox

Now, Mack-iavelli the Fox was sneaky and he was sly.
He knew that Suttree-Monkey was diminished and would not grow tall.
So he was kind and he was generous and he gave gifts to Suttree-Monkey.
He even let Suttree settle a stupid Poop-City that Suttree could not defend!
So long as Mack-the-Fox was distracted and Suttree kept his poop-supply high, Suttree would survive.
As soon as he could, Mack learned about Catapults and Horseback Riding.
He made it clear that nothing would survive leaving the boundaries of Suttree-Monkey's Mountain of Poop.
And he ignored Suttree's poop empire to prepare for the adventures to come.

Chapter 7 - A Slightly Unflattering Perspective on The Brothers Harry-Finn.

Now, as time passed, Suttree the Monkey was introduced to unusual creatures named Tweedle-Harry and Tweedle-Finn.
Tweedle-Harry and Tweedle-Finn had a most amazing ability: they could hold opposite ideas in their head at exactly the same time!

"Look at Suttree-Monkey," said Tweedle-Harry, "His civilization is a mountain of poop. He's not even properly defending his new city, settled ages too late. It will be easy to take away his whole empire when we get Knights!"
"Indeed," said Tweedle-Finn, "We are busy building workers and settlers while Suttree is living in poop! Our advantage over him will only grow!"

And at the very same time,

"We must attack Suttree-Monkey now!" said Tweedle-Harry, "We cannot attack later! We must punish him for building a poop empire"
"Indeed," said Tweedle Finn, "He will accept his punishment - it's true! He will not build troops because he will want to win the space race! It won't distract us at all from building workers and settlers!"

Chapter 8 - Suttree feels Sad, Again

And so Tweedle-Harry and Tweedle-Finn attacked and again Suttree felt sad.
He was giving away his land for free!
He threw a handful of poop at FinHarry, and set about building a stack.
So that he wouldn't give away any more land.

Chapter 9 - Mackoti is Smart

And Mack-the-fox was sneaky and he was sly and signaled in many ways that Suttree was safe - for now.
Immediately after currency, Mack researched HBR and was ready to grow.
But he did not attack, because he knew that one city was not worth giving FinHarry three.

Chapter 10 - Why Suttree Doesn't Hate You

"Oh no!", cried Tweedle-Harry, "Suttree is building a stack and moving it around our territory! That's so unfair!"
"Indeed!", cried Tweedle-Finn, "He's not killing anything, and we've done nothing to stop him, but clearly he hates us and just wants to ruin the game."

And at the very same time,

"Nakor and m_h are the worst", said Tweedle-Harry, "They didn't build stacks and move them around. That's so unfair!"
"Indeed!", said Tweedle-Finn, "They clearly hate us and just want to ruin the game."

Chapter 11 - Diplomacy Matters

After it became clear that Mackoti was going to wipe m_h, Suttree withdrew and planted his stack halfway between Mackoti and FinHarry. But even after he finished with m_h, Mackoti did not move to attack Suttree. He was watching and waiting for the right time to strike. Mackoti would give Suttree small gifts, and Suttree would return the sum in turn.

Chapter 12 - Tweedle Funny Business

"Haha! We have Knights lets start building them and moving them around Suttree's border!", said Tweedle-Harry.
"Now is the right time for a civ with Knights to strike!", agreed Tweedle-Finn.

And at the same time,

"Haha! Even though Mackoti also has Knights, he will do nothing," said Tweedle-Harry.
"Now is the wrong time for a civ with Knights to strike, so Suttree's cities will be ours!" agreed Tweedle-Finn,

And also,

"This will be cakewalk," said Tweedle-Harry, "Surely Suttree will want to distribute his troops uniformly across his cities. Anything else would be unfair!"
"Indeed," said Tweedle-Finn, "He does not want to survive, he just wants to die everywhere and at the same time!"

Chapter 13 - Suttree Makes a Choice

Now Suttree had to make a choice - to defend east or to defend west. His stack would be flanked if he tried to defend both. Geography meant that it was best to go east, so that's what Suttree did.

Chapter 14 - FinHarry Gifts Cities to Mackoti

Both FinHarry and Mackoti had stacks ready to take the Western cities, and both cities had guards. Of course, FinHarry attacked first, and had an opportunity to take the city.

"Let's not take the city this turn," said Tweedle-Harry, "I'm sure Mackoti doesn't care what we are doing at all!"
"Indeed!" said Tweedle-Finn, "Let's pillage and wait. Suttree won't mind abandoning his troops in the slightest!"

But Mackoti was clever and sly and knew that it was not at all in Suttree's interest to abandon his poop-armies. The Western Cities were lost the moment FinHarry attacked, and Suttree was indifferent to who claimed them. So Mackoti offered to buy the cities for peace, and all of Suttrees poop-armies would be transported and saved. 11 Longbows and 9 Spears to live another day and the likelihood of gold and resources from a powerful friend!

Chapter 14 - Suttree Must Die

"Auggh!" cried Tweedle-Harry, "This is so unfair! Clearly everyone is against us and nothing is our fault!"
"Indeed!" cried Tweedle-Finn, "Suttree must be to blame! We are fighting Mackoti, so he must fight him too!"
"Suttree should distribute his troops uniformly and not try to survive!"

Chapter 15 - The End

And that, my friends, is the end. Suttree had no more room to move.
Mackoti had a navy and FinHarry did not.
If FinHarry attacked, they would get one city and a pile of poop.
If they waited for Mackoti to attack, they would get one city without a pile of poop.
Can you guess which one they chose?

THE END

[Dhalphir]

i lost it completely at "and he would build a mountain of poop"

[Fintourist]

Yes, yes, Tweedle-Finn was so stupid. Why did he even think that I would not throw my game at him if he razed a size 1 city that I can't defend?

Just for the record, Harry is the more reasonable one of us and does not use this thread as much for ranting purpouses, so after throwing those 80 turns of poop at both of us, you might as well target this last throw at me.

I don't think that the story you wrote differs really in any way on how we see the situation. Sure we don't call ourselves tweedlers, but you certainly have made this tweedler/machia-fox attitude clear long time ago and thus after the begin of this poop-show your actions have been really annoying/frustrating from our perspective, but not unnatural, totally weird or anything. What I unfortunately did not know in advance (and was the surprising part of this and in hindsight our real mistake) was that you were ready to move to Chapter 4 so fast and that for you this kind of the story is the only logical consequence.

Anyways, if you scroll couple of pages back you can see the discussion between me and Krill about this same topic. Do you have an explanation why you decided to go with the poop-show and Dhalphir and TBS did not (probably not spoilerish anymore)? Was there some kind of in-game indication that we should have realized before razing your city that the situation is pooped or is it only about different people acting differently?

[Fintourist]

Btw,

I'm sure you don't like the way I rant about your game or the way we played our game, and I can assure that I did not like the way you played the game and did not think that your post was especially flattering either.

That said, I'm sure that you are a good guy, our ways simply crossed here in an unpleasant way and I would be happy to finally end this poop.

And also, just to be clear, your performance in other RB games and also the way you screwed our game here obviously shows that you know what your are doing civ-wise. We are not ranting about you being stupid, but simply choosing the ultimate response, which from our perspective was not 100 % clear in advance.

[Old Harry]

thanks Suttree, that's such a good summary!

The only bits I disagree with (other than that I'm an idiot) are that we had a chance against Barcelona - whoever attacked the city first was going to lose it since our enforced peace with Mackoti was about to expire (if we'd thought to offer peace first would you have accepted?) - and that you moved the archer out of maximin on it's last turn.

It's entertaining to see just how masterfully Mackoti pulled our strings all the way through. We spent tthe whole game expecting another attack on Hastings, either from you or Mackoti, when I guess we should just have ignored you completely...

Suttree Delenda Est!

[Fintourist]

Yeah, just as a clarification as lurkers probably haven't read everything in this thread: I assume that suttree does not really think that our thought process has gone as described in chapters 7,10,12,14 and he just wanted to ridicule us. Unless he really considers us as idiots (as OH pointed out).

- First of all comparison between Nakor & m_h & suttree behaviour is broken, those were 3 totally different cases, comparing suttree & Dhalphir & TBS is IMO more relevant as those follow the formula:
1. early attack to weaken and grab more land
2. destroy later
(of course they are also different and I'm interested in finding out why or should I just take Nassim Taleb Black Swan approach and stop trying to search causalities)

- We did not live in illusion that our later attacks at suttree were somehow clever and we did not leave mack out of the equation (you can find a post before both attacks where we consider it more likely that mack will be the one benefitting from it). The fact is that after m_h was swallowed we also lived in (and still live) in our own mountain of poop, and our preferred way to play is try to improve our position even by trying something desparate (like our incoming Ichabod attack) instead of waiting and dying. There were no really attractive openings elsewhere and it would have been difficult to start a war elsewhere when you have 50 units on our border so we considered attacking suttree the best of bad options. It was a long shot, but at least we tried to give suttree (and mack) a chance to make mistakes

- Remember also that as we lived also in poop time was not on our side, it was on mack's side, he was and is running away with the game. We did not have the luxury to wait until mack initiates the war and maybe draws suttree's units (more of that later), or well, sure we could have waited, but again we prefer to try something instead of slowly dying (note that the difference in this behaviour compared to suttree trying to kill us 50 turns ago is that now there is no peaceful land available and military expansion is the only expansion method while suttree could have continued expansion towards east if he had wanted after our initial attack)

- Yeah, that peace treaty thing, of course we understand why suttree did it and it's not like we asked for admin decision or anything, it was a defensible choice and within suttrees rights to do. It does not mean that we have to find it especially delightful. Put yourself into our position, a city is guarded by 11 lbows and 9 spears, that's not a weak defense, and then it gets gifted to your neighbor. Yeah..

If FinHarry attacked, they would get one city and a pile of poop.
If they waited for Mackoti to attack, they would get one city without a pile of poop.
Can you guess which one they chose?

To be honest, I think there only was one city and pile of poop anyways available unless mack is asleep or generous. You did not defend your southern cities and if Mack had taken them and even left them without city garrison I don't think you would have taken them back and just stayed in Madrid. As you stated, he was your powerful friend and you had given up on game 10 chapters earlier. Well, that's something we won't ever find out.

[Old Harry]

Turn 189

Traded maps with Pindicooter. Then presented with this tough decision. We've only got about 8 votes, but it would signal peaceful intentions to vote Mackoti... Pindicooter have about 5-6 cities more than Mack at this point, so with his slight tech edge I'd say things are finely balanced at the moment. Wonder what will happen when their peace treaty runs out in three turns...


This is Ichabod's army - he's added three muskets since last time I looked, which probably accounts for the recent power increases. He's still at war with William. I think we may need to offer William some sort of trade to signal what we're up to so that he doesn't take peace if Ichabod offers it. Do you think it's Ichabod prolonging their conflict, or is William hoping the war weariness (72) is hurting Ichy? I'd like to run Lunch through Ichy's territory again to check his defenses, but I think that's more likely to give him warning than to give us useful information.


With all the recent eliminations the world is looking pretty peaceful!


On the home front I revolted us to Slavery and Theocracy, which saves us 3gpt in reduced civic costs! (screenshot didn't stick)

Then welcome to the whipping spree. A Catapult in Dunkirk, a Pike in France (allows the city to grow this turn), a Musket in Konig (again allows growth), the Galley in Midway and a Pike in Quantrill. These are mostly going to garrison the south and generate overflow. Do we want to overflow into Muskets, Pikes, Cuirs or Catapults? This is our current army - I'm shuffling units to the west because we were most worried about losing Cannae or Gallipoli if Mack does plan to attack.


What happens in Issy over the next few turns is important enough that I dusted off the old spreadsheet and planned out the next few turns (feel free to check my maths). We have 42 hammers already in the cat, production of 10*1.25 = 12 and have a bit of overflow 8*1.25 = 10. Whips yield 37 hammers, so for the Musket 65 + 37 + 8 + 13 = 123 hammers. I think this means we can hold off whipping this turn, and then whip the next three to get both our galleons. We'll have to see if Ichabod notices...


The culture graph gives a clue to dtay's war against TBS - artist bomb FTW - and he revolted recently. It also looks rather sad from our point of view.


Power and demos

[Fintourist]

Good job for voting mackoti It signals friendliness for coming turns and I hope that it increases pindicooter's and plako's urge to do something with our neighbor.. Again a long shot though..

What's the base 8 in your Issy notation? 7*1.25 = 8.75? I could not follow the notation quite through so I could not double-check it, but it seems that there is some room for rounding errors in any case.

Let's not send something like iron for iron to William too early, if he accepts it and Ichabod notices it, it's a clear warning. However, this would be a fun moment to send gold for gold countdown Maybe William is not in a position to do anything, but we might try, 5 gold for 5 gold, 4 gold for 4 gold.. I think he will find it amusing. (Assuming that this is an acceptable thing to do from technical perspective)

[Old Harry]

Good job for voting mackoti It signals friendliness for coming turns and I hope that it increases pindicooter's and plako's urge to do something with our neighbor.. Again a long shot though..

Can't believe how close Commodore came to winning that vote - +1 to Plako's post in the tech thread - I thought religious victory had been removed from RBmod?

What's the base 8 in your Issy notation? 7*1.25 = 8.75? I could not follow the notation quite through so I could not double-check it, but it seems that there is some room for rounding errors in any case.

Yep, normally I'd try to avoid losing .75 of a hammer, but that's running max food while we aren't in Caste System. We can get more hammers if needed, but more than 160 hammers into the first galley will just disappear anyway.

Let's not send something like iron for iron to William too early, if he accepts it and Ichabod notices it, it's a clear warning. However, this would be a fun moment to send gold for gold countdown Maybe William is not in a position to do anything, but we might try, 5 gold for 5 gold, 4 gold for 4 gold.. I think he will find it amusing. (Assuming that this is an acceptable thing to do from technical perspective)

Yeah - let's hear from Krill/Q/Ceil - is a 5-4-3-2-1 countdown to William acceptable?

[Fintourist]

What's the base 8 in your Issy notation? 7*1.25 = 8.75? I could not follow the notation quite through so I could not double-check it, but it seems that there is some room for rounding errors in any case.

Yep, normally I'd try to avoid losing .75 of a hammer, but that's running max food while we aren't in Caste System. We can get more hammers if needed, but more than 160 hammers into the first galley will just disappear anyway.

Actually, I think you are calculating:

hammers = ROUNDDOWN(base production * 1.25) + ROUNDDOWN(overflow * 1.25)

when I thing it should be:

hammers = ROUNDDOWN[(base production + overflow) * 1.25]

I might be interepreting your calculations wrong, but if the above is true we might be getting a couple of hammers more than in your notation. It's only positive and not a big deal anyways.