The Football Thread

[Twinkletoes89]

You read the English papers too much.

Those tactics don't generally get results beyond a certain point - its why Allardyce and Pulis take bottom of the table sides to midtable but thats as far as it goes. There's a place between Guardiola's pretty triangles and hoof it and hope where most of the successful sides live.

And before we piss on possession football too much, let's not forget Spain and Barcelona won pretty much everything for 5 years+ playing that way. Hoof and hope hasn't ever won a World Cup and won very few major domestic titles in the past 20 years.

Lastly, don't suppose some part of the "lack of technical players" in England might be because technical ability isn't valued the same as it is in Spain or France? There's certainly no natural reason otherwise for those countries to constantly produce Platinis, Zidanes, Iniestas and Xavi's while England still pines for Paul Gascoigne 20 years on that I can see.

Agreed on the fact that they only get results to a certain point, but most teams in Britain can only reach that certain point as they don't have the financial ability to break the cycle and get much further. The style of play gets them about as far as they can possibly go so they don't bother changing it.

Spain and Barca are the exceptions that prove the rule to a certain amount IMO. Spain were able to be strong because their top players played for 1 or 2 clubs that played the same way so they could easily translate their domestic abilities to the national level when most other clubs are dealing with players spread across many teams and countries. Barca had Messi. Take Messi out of that side and its still top-notch, but not unbeatable. Their style helped them win, but neither was it the main reason why.

I totally agree on the lack of players being due to systemic failures and I have not suggested that it isn't. The point is to do with what I said above. Its next to impossible to break the top levels where you can have the funding to invest loads in youth without threatening yourself with relegation and the loss of money. The EPL is such a cash cow that Pulis/Allardyce tactics are desired by some clubs because it keeps them in it, even if they know they won't win much with it.

We could then talk about the price inflation of English players versus foreign players and they hype machine and the piss poor state of most youth academies but we'd end up making the same point. The money dictates why all these things happen.

[Gaspar]

Spain and Barca are the exceptions that prove the rule to a certain amount IMO. Spain were able to be strong because their top players played for 1 or 2 clubs that played the same way so they could easily translate their domestic abilities to the national level when most other clubs are dealing with players spread across many teams and countries. Barca had Messi. Take Messi out of that side and its still top-notch, but not unbeatable. Their style helped them win, but neither was it the main reason why.

Well, I think the greater point re: style is you don't have much of a sample size to compare to because possession football requires an extremely high technical level to play. My Arsenal is probably the counter-point - the great teams of the late 90s/early aughts weren't tiki-taka, they were devastating counter attacking units as much as possession teams. But the Fabregas Era teams certainly were and didn't win anything. I'd argue that you'll not find a team who spent as little as those teams that stayed near the top of the table, but regardless, I don't think we can realistically say too much about the style because so few teams are capable of playing it.

And as Rowain mentioned above, let's tap the brakes on Bayern being failures - they made the CL Semi and won their domestic league at an absolute canter. Like I said, I hate Guardiola as much as anyone but this is just typical media narrative baiting mostly.

(Brian's point is excellent - Jonathan Wilson's Anatomy of England is an excellent read if anyone hasn't had the chance yet. All of Wilson's books are great, though his Clough piece was a little too Clough-by-numbers for my tastes.)

[Katon]

It's also hard to evaluate a style that only one or two managers use because it's hard to tell which failings are intrinsic to the style and which are the manager's particular quirks. Bayern did a poor job coping aerially with a physical team and were playing some shaky defenders - moving Lahm to midfield so you can play Rafinha is an idea maybe nobody but Guardiola would have. Barcelona had very similar failure modes at their peak; is that intrinsic to tiki taka, or just because Guardiola hates dealing with defenders? Guardiola and Wenger are both also inclined to stick to their philosophy against any opposition, even good teams who're well set up to deal with it, which can produce the occasional big-game disaster (compare to Heynckes last year, who took a team which had the second-most possession in Europe and tore Barca to shreds on the counterattack because that was the best way for his squad to beat them) but isn't necessarily a problem with possession football.

The really extreme possession teams tend to about match what you'd expect from their squad quality, off the top of my head. Arsenal's typical year in their possession era involved taking about the fourth-highest wage bill in the country and qualifying for the CL without making a serious run at either major trophy; Barcelona, with one of the best squads in Europe, won the league most years at their peak and made serious CL runs; Bayern have won the league and reached CL semis or better the two years they really dominated possession.

(and argh, Charles Reep. I'm a mathematician for my day job, and even reading paraphrases of his analyses hurts my brain)

[Gaspar]

Been so long I forgot what this felt like.

[novice]

And still, the fastest tempo change is by the player who scored... When he starts celebrating.

[Brian Shanahan]

Krill, where's my new avatar so I can get the six months done?

[Krill]

I probably deserve to be banned for this, but I did give you the choice.

[Brian Shanahan]

I probably deserve to be banned for this, but I did give you the choice.

Done.

[darrelljs]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/20684...p-triumphs

Darrell

[Gaspar]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/20684...p-triumphs

Darrell

The amazing part isn't whatever's in that article, but rather that you think there's any chance people would click on a Bleacher Report link.