Hearthstone

[pindicator]

Are you playing him with handlock and pandas?

[antisocialmunky]

No, I made a duplicate mage giant deck.

http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/constr...-mage-deck

[Kuro]

Curse of Naxx has been pretty fun, even if I wasn't able to save up as much gold as I should have due to some RL issues! Maexxna is bad, yes: Most of the time, you would prefer an Ogre or Cairne or whatnot. (Ogre is most important comparison because you do not need to craft Ogre)

Loatheb is overrated, though he is still good, but he is average in a lot of match-ups and poor in others so it balances out. 5/5 for 5 makes him worthwhile at least. But then again, I haven't gotten past Rank 4, so who am I to say?

[Gaspar]

Curse of Naxx has been pretty fun, even if I wasn't able to save up as much gold as I should have due to some RL issues! Maexxna is bad, yes: Most of the time, you would prefer an Ogre or Cairne or whatnot. (Ogre is most important comparison because you do not need to craft Ogre)

Loatheb is overrated, though he is still good, but he is average in a lot of match-ups and poor in others so it balances out. 5/5 for 5 makes him worthwhile at least. But then again, I haven't gotten past Rank 4, so who am I to say?

Loatheb might be overrated - but what precisely is the matchup in which he's poor? That's the thing, everyone made a big deal out of the potential impact vs Miracle but it really isn't a big deal there. In any situation in which you have the board, Loatheb is a fantastic drop since the majority of removal is spell-based. Its also fantastic in any situation in which you have lethal the following turn. That's the thing - its not a card which is going to turn the game around - its simply a good card in almost every deck because it is fantastic when you have board control. The fact that there aren't a lot of good 5-drops in the game, which meant everyone was playing Azure Drakes in every deck obviously contributes.

If you take a look at the decks from the WEC NA qualifiers this weekend, for example, I think of the 32 decks brought something like 28 of them had Loatheb in them. That's really not what you want from a legendary and I do think it is a little too useful in every deck.

[Kuro]

Curse of Naxx has been pretty fun, even if I wasn't able to save up as much gold as I should have due to some RL issues! Maexxna is bad, yes: Most of the time, you would prefer an Ogre or Cairne or whatnot. (Ogre is most important comparison because you do not need to craft Ogre)

Loatheb is overrated, though he is still good, but he is average in a lot of match-ups and poor in others so it balances out. 5/5 for 5 makes him worthwhile at least. But then again, I haven't gotten past Rank 4, so who am I to say?

Loatheb might be overrated - but what precisely is the matchup in which he's poor? That's the thing, everyone made a big deal out of the potential impact vs Miracle but it really isn't a big deal there. In any situation in which you have the board, Loatheb is a fantastic drop since the majority of removal is spell-based. Its also fantastic in any situation in which you have lethal the following turn. That's the thing - its not a card which is going to turn the game around - its simply a good card in almost every deck because it is fantastic when you have board control. The fact that there aren't a lot of good 5-drops in the game, which meant everyone was playing Azure Drakes in every deck obviously contributes.

If you take a look at the decks from the WEC NA qualifiers this weekend, for example, I think of the 32 decks brought something like 28 of them had Loatheb in them. That's really not what you want from a legendary and I do think it is a little too useful in every deck.

Loatheb is very poor in the Zoo matchup. It hoses maybe 2 cards in their Deck, is decently pricy, easily killed by Doomguard and comes late. Control Warrior has little trouble dealing with Loatheb, especially if they tech a single Arcanite Reaper. Loatheb is only okay vs. Shaman and Loatheb is generally not very useful against any variant of Paladin (Shockadin is generally too fast, Control Paladin easily deals with Loatheb via Truesilver Champion and he only does much to gunk up spells on Equality turns, which means you have to be in a solid winning position to get any value out of him).

Part of the reason that so many Decks ran Loatheb in tournaments is that aggro is under-represented in tournament play and Loatheb shines more in matchups like Miracle Rogue and Freeze Mage. This is combined with the fact that Loatheb is new and so people are probably putting it in more Decks than they should. For example, there were no Shockadins played in the tournament, though there were Control Pallys. There were only two Control Warriors. There were only two Shamans. 3/5 of Warlocks were Zoo and Loatheb is good vs. Handlock. Interestingly, Alchemixt probably had the best line-up vs. Loatheb and went far (Hunter cares about Loatheb, but only in specific circumstances). But the point is Loatheb was probably both over-represented and looked better than he is because he was being used in an enviroment where few of the decks he is bad against are being played. There's also other 5-drop options that have not been released that take up room (For example, Feugen and Spectral Knight) that can push Loatheb out of Decks, plus in some cases Loatheb is being used in Decks in WEC he really shouldn't as a test (Miracle). And honestly there's a decent amount of places I would say Sludge Belcher, right now, would do better than Loatheb in the WEC Decks. Of course, I'm a Rank 4-er talking about the decks of the best people in HS...so I am probably wrong.

[Sir Bruce]

Every top player (who streams) is running Loatheb in every single deck. It's merely "decent" against zoo (a lot of which run 1 or 2 PO now anyway) and great against every other deck. It is a total beast against all versions of Control warrior that anyone seems to be running (10+ spells is huge value for Loatheb). Maybe it will fall to again to merely decent in the match-up if they run an Arcanite. Hunter is the only match-up where Loatheb doesn't really matter very much unless you're protecting a huge board against UTH.

It's like old Sylvanas at 5 mana - it poses a very very specific question and if your opponent doesn't have exactly the right answer it is a huge swing for you. And even if they do have an answer it usually still 1 for 1s and forces a very particular line. Watching both tourneys and streams it is almost always a game-changer whenever it comes down. It's great.

Agreed that Belcher is good though, but it's not a Loatheb replacement.

[Kuro]

Every top player (who streams) is running Loatheb in every single deck. It's merely "decent" against zoo (a lot of which run 1 or 2 PO now anyway) and great against every other deck. It is a total beast against all versions of Control warrior that anyone seems to be running (10+ spells is huge value for Loatheb). Maybe it will fall to again to merely decent in the match-up if they run an Arcanite. Hunter is the only match-up where Loatheb doesn't really matter very much unless you're protecting a huge board against UTH.

It's like old Sylvanas at 5 mana - it poses a very very specific question and if your opponent doesn't have exactly the right answer it is a huge swing for you. And even if they do have an answer it usually still 1 for 1s and forces a very particular line. Watching both tourneys and streams it is almost always a game-changer whenever it comes down. It's great.

Agreed that Belcher is good though, but it's not a Loatheb replacement.

I've been running a variation of Control Warrior (With a teched Battle Rage and Berserker + Pyromancer) and Loatheb never bothered me. By the time he drops, Execute and Shield Slam can still be played if you want, and your Legendaries are coming into play. Unless the opponent is killing you, I haven't found he means much. And I don't even run an Arcanite. (I actually tested Loatheb out in the Deck and replaced him with a Sludge Belcher because he wasn't useful enough.) Even against normal Control Warrior though it isn't a beast in most situations, because it does not actually stop their cheap removal and comes at the point on the curve they start to get their Legendaries out.

I don't watch enough streamers to say, but I tended to agree with Trump's assessment that it is a bit overrated ATM and is just good and not great. (IIRC Reynad said a similiar thing on a Value Town stream on Naxx cards, but I don't have any link)

Also, Loatheb is horrible even if Zoo runs 2 Power Overwhelming. It's a Stranglethorn Tiger without Stealth against them unless you get lucky. Stranglethorn Tiger against Zoo is bad. Loatheb was pretty rarely a game changer in the WEC finals, but that is a small sample size so I can't really judge it (I sadly missed the rest of the tournament and even some of the start of the finals).

I'm not saying Loatheb is BAD or anything, it's not, I just think that it is overrated. It doesn't really have a place in, for example, Miracle or Zoo like it was being run in WEC.

[Gaspar]

Its not overrated, its not bad. You can concoct all the scenarios where the card isn't fantastic but its literally never bad because even if the spell component does nothing you're still leaving a 5/5 behind. Of course you can misplay it like any other card and there are certainly situations where you'd rather have an Azure Drake but the situations where it is absolutely fantastic far outweigh any risk of putting it in your deck.

To say it doesn't have a place in Miracle is absurd - I haven't seen a Miracle run by a top player without it since the release - the number of situations where stalling out your opponents spellcasting for one turn is fantastic number in the dozens. Miracle frequently is simply waiting for mana to unleash their insane combos and severely limiting your opponents ability to play their spells for a turn can often buy you that one extra turn.

If you think about the primary decks in the current meta - Midrange Hunter, Zoo, Miracle, Token Druid, Fast Druid, Ramp Druid, Handlock - only the first two don't rely heavily on spells and even those two have their moments. Have a fat board against a Hunter who's trying to stall for an unleash comeback? Slam Loatheb. There are no unleash combos you can manage when the spell costs 8 mana. Stalled out your opponents Zoo but find yourself at low health? Slamming Loatheb means those Soulfire and Power Overwhelmings can't be combo'd. Its not the "answer to Miracle rogue" as it was touted before the release of plague but its a "tool that works in pretty much every deck." Maybe the metagame will change down the line and pure tempo decks that rely on "value" minions will see success and in those cases, you'd rather have a differently teched 5-drop. But in the current metagame, it is a fantastic, fantastic card.

Also, Loatheb being undervalued by Trump is unsurprising - it is the exact sort of "abstract" value that he struggles properly mentally costing.

[Kuro]

I just don't agree that it's a tool that works in pretty much every Deck. I think it specifically works in midrange-y and Control decks well, though I've yet to test it in Ranked and have it do well but at the same time that is probably due to it eing a new season. And if you've stalled out your opponent that far into Zoo, it's probably late in the game, which means they'll have enough spare mana to play even a 5 mana Soulfire. They have their moments, but the majority of the time Loatheb will be a Tiger.

Loatheb in Miracle is bad because it doesn't really delay most things in Miracle, except a few decks like Freeze Mage and other Miracles, because there's not enough reason to be using spells in that situation anyway, except in finisher situations (FoN + Roar for example), otherwise something like Druid (Except Token Druid, admittedly) and Handlock wants to plunk down minions to deal with the possible Miracle plays, Handlock wants to plunk down dudes, Zoo ignores it, Midrange Hunter would rather plunk down a Savannah Highmane or something (Most of it's combos won't be getting a lot vs. Miracle anyway like UTH). And a lot of Miracle Rogue's problem isn't mana but not drawing Gadgetzan or the like and Loatheb takes up one of the more important spots in the Deck. But I don't play Miracle (Don't have the cards for it and I don't have as much fun with it) so I could be mis-evaluating it.

In the current metagame, it IS a fantastic card, but it's a card that is still being overrated and put into too many Decks. A card can be very good and not belong in a lot of Decks. (Cairne Bloodhoof is an amazing card, but it doesn't belong in a lot of Decks, for example)

[Gaspar]

So if Miracles worst matchups are Freeze Mage, Handlock and the mirror (which is pretty much what you'll hear from experienced pros) and you think Loatheb helps in two of those three matchups, how is it a bad card in Miracle again?

Any deck will tech in one card if it helps against its worst matchups, so... ?

Is it being put in too many decks? Maybe. That's unsurprising, since its the easiest to acquire good legendary and it is new. But if Loatheb were a 6-drop, I think it would properly costed and hence not be a good tech in so many decks. That's the trick really - all but the absolute most face-rush decks in the game run 5-drops. There are quite a few decks which don't run anything higher than 5, though.