Hearthstone

[antisocialmunky]

So if Miracles worst matchups are Freeze Mage, Handlock and the mirror (which is pretty much what you'll hear from experienced pros) and you think Loatheb helps in two of those three matchups, how is it a bad card in Miracle again?

Any deck will tech in one card if it helps against its worst matchups, so... ?

Is it being put in too many decks? Maybe. That's unsurprising, since its the easiest to acquire good legendary and it is new. But if Loatheb were a 6-drop, I think it would properly costed and hence not be a good tech in so many decks. That's the trick really - all but the absolute most face-rush decks in the game run 5-drops. There are quite a few decks which don't run anything higher than 5, though.

I don't know how good Loatheb is long term, but it combos absurdly well with Giants in Freeze Mage/Handlock or Duplicate. 3x Loatheb against a miracle rogue is pretty hilarious. That's a pretty obvious (but awesome) outlier but he stil lbuys you time against the rogue getting the miracle off.

Where Loatheb really shines are those down to the wire games where both players are 1 turn away from lethal and saving their removal. He'll push that 50/50 chance of winning to a 90+% chance of winning in those situations. He's pretty good vs any class that is reliant on a spell finisher like Druid/Mage/Priest/Rogue.

I guess in the general case you will be playing him as a hard to remove 5 drop or to cover your board from wipes it in which case he's merely good instead of amazing.

[Sir Bruce]

The best way to see the value in Loatheb is when you play past turn 5 or 6 ask "do I want to play a spell?" or "Will my opponent want to play a spell?" The answer is "yes" very very frequently. Like, maybe every other turn or something. Loatheb forces a "no". It's an enormous tempo play. He's strong against literally any deck that runs many spells (5+) - the only obvious weakness is zoo or face hunter who only run 3-4 spells. And even then he's a reasonable body if you have to play him. Handlock - tons of spells. Control Warrior - tons of spells. Having execute cost 6 is brutal for tempo. Miracle obviously. And so on down the line. I guess Backspace Aggro rogue shouldn't worry about it too much either.

Antisocialmunky almost nails it with "hard to remove 5 drop or to cover your board". He is almost always both of these things which is why he's such a huge swing.

Sure he's not an autowin card and there are decks that he fits in only somewhat but he is a very strong consideration for literally every deck archetype which is why he's OP.

[Kuro]

So if Miracles worst matchups are Freeze Mage, Handlock and the mirror (which is pretty much what you'll hear from experienced pros) and you think Loatheb helps in two of those three matchups, how is it a bad card in Miracle again?

Any deck will tech in one card if it helps against its worst matchups, so... ?

Is it being put in too many decks? Maybe. That's unsurprising, since its the easiest to acquire good legendary and it is new. But if Loatheb were a 6-drop, I think it would properly costed and hence not be a good tech in so many decks. That's the trick really - all but the absolute most face-rush decks in the game run 5-drops. There are quite a few decks which don't run anything higher than 5, though.

I always hear Miracle's worst matchup is Zoo/rush decks, which is what Loatheb is bad with. I always thought that Miracle Rogue actually had a + matchup against Freeze Mage, because it combos before they get off their kill?

[Sir Bruce]

Probably 55-60% for the freeze mage. The Ice Blocks are really tough to pop and still have enough finishing oomph.

edit: according to Otter, a pretty good streamer and freeze-mage specialist. I don't own Alex.

[Gaspar]

Miracle is absolutely favored against Zoo. Its not 90/10 or anything, but its probably 55-60 as well. The best cards against Zoo are things like SI:7 agent which remove their minions and put a body on the board. Same reason the Druid matchup is all about whether they draw Keeper, not Swipe. Low cost removal can duplicate this effect - Backstab to remove, play Earthen, for example. Freeze is favored against Miracle due to Ice Block, the matchup against Miracle is what brought it back into the meta (though the resurgence of Hunter kills it dead.)

Miracle is actually much, much better right now because the most prominent decks on the ladder are the ones it does well against, Loatheb notwithstanding. I just can't bring myself to play it without Van Cleef and I can't get myself to craft class legendaries or I'd definitely be playing it.

[Kuro]

Huh, alright. I guess I heard wrong. If that is the case, then Loatheb would be good in Miracle Rogue. Though if the problem is Ice Block, it's an issue they can play it before you drop Loatheb, but still good.

[sunrise089]

@Gaspar - is 6 cost better than making it a 4/4?

[Gaspar]

@Gaspar - is 6 cost better than making it a 4/4?

I think the mana cost has a lot to do with it its play. Right now the sum total of quality neutral 5-drops that don't require a deck built around them (Auctioneer) is like 3 cards (Loatheb, Azure Drake, Sludge Belcher) Though I guess that will be slightly less of an issue once all the Naxx cards get released, the 5 mana Faerie Dragon will definitely get some play in that slot as well, particularly for more aggressive decks.

I think I'd rather a strong card that's not a "must include" than a weaker one though. I'm not 100% certain it will need a nerf, but it definitely feels a bit too good right now.

[uberfish]

Even if Loatheb turns out to be OP it would still be better to have it in the game as an OP card than not at all, because there seriously needed to be more combo disruptors against Leeroy, FoN/SR, multi-turn freeze etc

[pindicator]

This was as awesome as it was awful