[SPOILERS] Muffin's spoiler thread of delicious baked goodness and half baked ideas

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

Well here we go. Easiest things first - we all have 5 food and 3 prod so I assume that we all indeed started on a sugar and that everyone had an ivory forested to work in the first ring.

Solider count is purely from starting techs.

Land count - Now obviously Jowy has had his first border pop already and has just 1 water tile in his cap like mine. Someone also has 1 water tile in their initial settle box. (should have looked at these earlier!)

Pop obviously we are all at size 1.

Approval rate obviously cornflakes is highest with his bonus happiness and everyone else is level.

Life expectancy I am obviously highest with my bonus health. The rival average is completely identical also suggesting we have all the same amount of capital BFC forests for chopping balance.

Now the hardest, GNP. There are 3 of us at least on 16, as I am third with that. Thus 3 of us are researching a starting tech of some sort. Jowy with the cre culture is obviously rival best at 20, and changing my tech to medi I get a GNP of 18, so he is researching a tech with 1 prerequisite. With the average of 17 and the games rounding the final person could have either 16 or 18, but I believe 18 as otherwise I would be listed as joint second rather than joint third.

So Jowy with the wheel and agri as egypt is going for either pottery or animal husbandry, most likely animal husbandry. Then 2 other are getting starting techs - maybe the person with the water in the first ring has a seafood start? Then I have read the map rather wrong. Or people could be getting hunting first to get a bonus on animal husbandry, as they have another grain tile that they can improve first. (retep, jowy, cornflakes are all agri/wheel starts) lastly there is someone researching a 1 prerequisite tech. Is this mali going bronze first for chopping knowing we have a super tile pre improvement? That could be powerful. Or is it someone else going animal husbandry first? We can extrapolate backwards once we start seeing score improvements I guess.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

Land count is 660 tiles. That's just over 130 each. A small lakes generates a 24 by 40 map which gives us 960 tiles, so we are 1/3 water, which is a lot more water than I assumed there would be (unless the base map used wasn't lakes). Makes sense though with the 2 coasts that I have seen with my scout (likely a third above the banana also), and someone likely having a sea start, so I have clearly read the map rather wrongly in the building stages. Depending on the layout perhaps a play for the GLH would be powerful here, and speed me onto cataphracts? Although it cannot be too powerful here I suppose as it was specifically allowed by Commodore, so I will likely not bother with it.

200 per person is average so this will be tight, although I'm sure the usual pangea FFA with 6 people on gamespy tend towards around 160-180 tiles per person, with a lot less of them being viable to use. I think this will feel a lot more tighter than just being a slight reduction on those somehow though. Being torotoidal and without any tundra/ice most settling locations will be viable and we will border people on all sides... I guess I shall get a feel for it with a little more exploration. I can get the amount of tiles on the map I suppose if I find where the world wraps.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

Well 2 turns have passed since I last posted and exciting news - I have met someone, bob aka wang kong of mali.




The numbers are where my scout has moved. Tbf I have moved a maximum in that direction more or less hugging the coast and have just started to loop around to the north back to the cap, so if he has done the same we are a maximum of 16 E-W tiles apart. Hmm we shall have to see how close he is. Certainly not the best leader to have as a neighbour. If he gets frisky with pro skirms that will be a pain, and he can settle right in my face without too much concern

Nevermind, I expect borders on all sides with everyone anyway.

Other thing of interest is that his score has increased by 6 which means he has gained a tech. That fast it can either be hunting or fishing, and with the highest solider count increasing by 2000 to 8000 which is the cost of hunting, we can safely assume he researched that. Average GNP is still 17 with me third so I guess he is getting another starting tech with no bonus.

Finally the capital's borders popped showing fish 4S1W and some more dye. Also another nice potential city spot 3E or 3E1S on the coast with a 2hammer bonus and the plains sheep plus floods for a decent early hammer city for some extra workers.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

So a few turns have passed, and I haven't updated much as it is just worker building and scouting currently. Still another 2 turns before he is born. I have looped my scout around to the north and come back towards the capital revealing bobs outer culture and pretty much all the interlying land between us. I wasn't iniyially keen on settling in his direction too early as if he gets frisky with skirmishers it would just be annoying more than anything. That was until I noticed the marble, nicely located roughly in the middle of us... Now I am not too sure and feel that securing it could be a smart long term move.




The lion should be fine in forest over the river. Plus there is a free win on monarch anyway (I think)

Numbers are where I moved. Seems like very nice green terrain, kudos to commodore! In terms of city placement in this direction I am very keen on getting the marble. I think I will head out to that more than out east towards the clam over here. At the moment I am leaning towards putting a city on the jungle sugar for the food bonus as a border city with bob, and a city between that and my capital first somewhere to pick up some of the tasty livestock. I still feel that either the city east or west will be a better first city to build though as a 2 hammer settle is decidedly more powerful as an early settle, especially with my hammer bonus on workers. I think a ring of cities around the capital is still better play here, I do not to provoke a war with someone with an early UU by trying to block off myself land. We will see how the game develops and what I find at the other 2 sites.

Knowing my luck he will want this too early and stick a nice pro skirm and bunker there

Plan from here is to send the scout SE and loop round and back up to my south, and the warrior when he is done to head west to explore before moving to cover wherever I want to send the settler for the second city, which I still think is best out at size 3 turn 29. It can be done size 4 turn 31 but I feel that 2 more turns of production will more than make up for the 1 lower size. Still unsure whether to go warrior again after that as with the ivory hooked up I can reach size 5 without an MP anyway, or whether to build henge, though with the 1turn every day or 2 will not have to decide for about a month!

In terms of demos, cornflakes increased on the turn that I posted earlier (4) so either went fishing or hunting and retep increased the turn after (5) so either went mining or myst. Since the average soldiers count only went up 2k I assume cornflakes went fishing and retep mining as that makes more sense that a mysticism/religion founding gambit here. I probably won't try to work out what people are teching that much as it is a lot of time to invest for little reward I think. Mainly I will be keeping an eye on solider count for a possible rush.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

So lets start some opponent analysis. Since I don't really know any of their play styles then I won't be commenting on that and I am not keen to trawl through old reports to get an idea. Besides they cannot do the same to find out info about me.

So Bob as Wang Kong of Mali. This is an interesting pick, the only fin on the table mixed with decidedly the worst trait in the game. However, if paired with the best trait and it will deter people from attacking you then suddenly it becomes not as bum of a pick as usual. Mali are a solid choice with a great early UU that does synergise well with protective, and if he avoids fued he can have cheap cost effective MP that are also pretty handy to soak up collateral all game. The UB is an upgrade on a building that is put everywhere, again helping slight with tech. With the mix of pro and mali he could easily bag himself a lot of land without too much worry of being able to hold it until the mid game. I think this is a more solid pick than it sounds on paper, although it will need to be seen how it plays out. If he can secure a lot of land with aggressive planting and fin bonus cottage it, whilst detering war with protective skirms this could get him far. I would have considered Wang Kong if it had come around to me but being slightly more aggressive I would have tried to get a gunpowder UU to attach to the protective state, either a musketeer or redcoat probably, and relied on pro to make people wary of me. In hindsight I think the early lockdown provided by pro mali is probably a better choice. I don't think that he could have picked a better synergistic pair here, we just need to wait to see if he can get enough cottages to make it work. I expect any play to win to come in a first to currasiers or rifles/cavalry type play.

Next we have cornflakes, giving us Brennus of the ottomans. Not quite sure what he was doing with this pick myself. Being last, he also had a clear shot at getting synergy with whoever he wanted. I get ottomans are a regular feature, everyone loves the hamman bonus happy, but then why go for a leader that gives even more bonus happy? Especially on a map that is likely to feature a lot of happy resources. However, spiritual is a decidedly good trait here. I think woe betide anyone that feels secure enough to leave slavery. That is screaming out for an attack, losing the ability to insta whip defence. Might even make for a good choice of target in the mid game. I have always been underwhelmed by the jannisary, but they will have a lot of value against cataphracts here. Holed up in cities they will not be a great candidate to hit by any stretch of the imagination. He may actually be a good candidate to hit before he reaches them as poses me problems on the attack.

Thirdly, we have Jowy, bringing pericles of egypt. This is an interesting choice, with oblisks, warchariots philo and creative. I guess the idea here is to either war for or scare people off enough land to then build up a slow but steady tech lead with cheaper libraries and universities, whilst also culturally dominating any close borders that there are bound to be quite a few of. I wonder if he will get any value out of the oblisk? The map seems food heavy so there might be more options to run specialists than a standard map but surely he will not want to build too many being creative? Although the war chariot is more than enough to set off a lacklustre UB anyway. This pick depends on his ability to manage a SE and his GPP. He could play for an early religion which might be quite powerful and religion spread should be fairly fast with tightly packed cities, although the GPT of a shrine would reach a smallish max most likely. If he could bring an early GS also then he could start running away with the game.

Finally there is retep with Aosaka of Sumeria, with ziggaruts, vultures, spiritual and organised traits. This mix is all about picking up a lot of land and being able to pay for it easily. With org and early courthouses he should have no problems holding more land without going broke. He will also save early turns with spiritual and again be able to run other civics without concern that he is not in slavery and could be attacked at any time from a different side and not be able to whip defence. As I said earlier I would question the synergy as you are actually saving less hammers with org of sumeria than usual, although at the same time as you are building the courthouses earlier the oppertunity cost is more so it probably retains value there. And as there is a lot more ocean than I thought there would be organised actually seems like a more solid choice here than I thought earlier. He again seems likely to want to build up and go for the win later.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

As for myself, lets see where I can get with byzantium. Hoping to go fairly building light and reach cataphracts fairly early, possibly around 500AD? Probably a little ambitious. Bismark was picked to get bonuses on the buildings that I will definitely want in every city and get myself off to an early start, and for fail gold. I will also want to get an early wonder in the shape of the oracle to speed me onto my beeline goal. I also hope that someone else will want henge and allow me to fail gold it in the first 50 turns, and with a charismatic and an Egypt this could be possible, although with a field of skilled players unlikely. Now that I have seen the amount of water on the map here with the amount of water whoring the naval wonders of the colossus and GLH could be a great way to keep the economy strong, and being the only IND I should have a fairly good shout at both.

So the grand strategy is hit cataphracts as early as possible (shocking), and subplan to avoid being war chariot rushed, skirm rushed or rushed in general (duh). I think it might actually be good play to settle towards anyone but Jowy to make myself seem like a much less viable target for a war chariot attack. Oracle and an early religion than I can spread around seem like a good idea here, and with the marble perhaps poly might be a good choice to fail gold the temple of artemis in a few cities for a pre machinary/guilds boost, and a prophet for the shrine to keep my eco going on the attack.

Hopefully when I have survived to cataphracts I can run over the opposition. Cornflakes seems like a good target as I will not want to be using cataphracts against jannisarries. That would be suicidal. Bob seems like a poor choice as I will need more units for the same effect (Pro is providing some benefit here!). But I guess it depends on the lay of the land after the settle phase and the relative strengths of people. My only concern is that given the torotoidal nature of the map holding city gains might be quite awkward as any direction will leave a rather extended empire... Perhaps prolific razing would be more useful here.

Looking at the lay of land so far I am having civ envy of an organised HRE, and I probably would have gone for mehmed of them. Still nevermind, I'm sure I can make my plan work!

[Fintourist]

Just a random comment, partly also to show that your thoughts are being read.

I get ottomans are a regular feature, everyone loves the hamman bonus happy, but then why go for a leader that gives even more bonus happy?

I haven't read Cornflakes' thread yet, so no spoilers, but I don't think that hammams played a big role in this civ pick. Their valuation has been decreasing in this community over the years, as people have realized that aquaducts aren't really needed before industrial era and therefore hammams are a pretty expensive way to generate extra happiness. They are mostly useful just if you go for a big bureaucracy capital or an extra bonus if you build Hanging Garderns. So I guess Ottamans are mostly picked just for good starting techs + not useless UB & UU that someone can prefer over Egypt/Sumeria/France/other agri-wheels I'm missing.

[von Adlercreutz]

I don't think 500AD cataphracts are too ambitious, I think that might actually be a bit late. At least in my experience, you can get cuirs (sp imm/deity with tech trade so isn't really comparable, but anyway). And I've seen better guilds dates on games at this site (pb18 spoiler info):

In pb18 dtay and finharry have guilds at something like 275AD, and FinHarry went for CS first so it wasn't a straight beeline and didn't involve bulbing or delaying expansion. Those spoiler threads might be useful info for kngith rushing.

So if you're planning to go light on infra and do short-term investments like lots of failgold I think you should aim for an ambitious date.

[Fintourist]

PS. type "relevant game"- spoilers before the actual spoiler tags, otherwise there is not much point. Or maybe spoilers for anybody actually playing currently in a game or something

Only for von Alder:

no worries from my side though, the post did not contain anything that I would not have been aware of.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

Just a random comment, partly also to show that your thoughts are being read.

I get ottomans are a regular feature, everyone loves the hamman bonus happy, but then why go for a leader that gives even more bonus happy?

I haven't read Cornflakes' thread yet, so no spoilers, but I don't think that hammams played a big role in this civ pick. Their valuation has been decreasing in this community over the years, as people have realized that aquaducts aren't really needed before industrial era and therefore hammams are a pretty expensive way to generate extra happiness. They are mostly useful just if you go for a big bureaucracy capital or an extra bonus if you build Hanging Garderns. So I guess Ottamans are mostly picked just for good starting techs + not useless UB & UU that someone can prefer over Egypt/Sumeria/France/other agri-wheels I'm missing.

Way another lurker! Sorry for a late reply but I had lots of RL stuff to do over the weekend and all my civ time was taken up with the PB22 selection, although this did actually inform this reply.

When I wrote that I was surprised that with a free pick he went for a mix with charismatic. I guess I just really never clicked with it and I regularly play always war where it's value is definitely enhanced with all the promos that will be received. There were so many other options to have been chosen, especially as he was picking together.

My annoyance with the ottomans is more that I have never really got on with them. As you said the UB whilst good in theory is rather expensive, and I would not like to have to use that many hammers all over my empire. The point where you would consider the hamman for the health, the happiness is generally not very useful on a resource rich map, and early game can easily be overcome with a few units running HR (what else are you going to run that early save rep, which is 3 more happy right there). Also the Jassisary I would lump in with conquistador in UUs that sound great but really just help you destroy a backwards empire faster. People really like them and they are great for killing an outdated army easily, but get no bonus against their contemporary units. Also add this to them being on an awkward tech to reach and beeline effectively (the quickest way would be through guilds although that would relegate eco techs for a long time, or pushing through paper would leave you open militarily) and I don't see them being that much of a gamechanger. Especially compared to the flexibility of a musketeer or the longevity of prets or power of redcoats, there are lots of other UUs that are easier to utilize well against a foe equal in tech.

I have never picked a civ for it's starting techs, so maybe I undervalue their wheel/agri start. I am from a Gamespy background where obviously starts are unknown, I play many teamer games with pooled starting techs and finally I very very rarely play maps bigger than small or difficulties higher than noble. That is how it is done online to allow the game to be played in one sitting. Save for fishing starts, you can pretty much tech to any needed tech whilst building a quick speed 10 turn worker, and only animal husbandry without hunting/agri is awkward on an 8 turn worker. Going onto the pitboss I realise just how much those small maps speed up the earlier techs, although here I was easily able to get away with not having any worker techs off the bat. So I think that is why I do not value a civ for starting techs, although maybe in a big game I would more.

If I had gone purely for starting techs, would my start have been much different here? I may have moved to the plains hill, but for a SIP I can reach agri then animal husbandry without any wasted worker turns. There is marginal benefit of getting the sheep first of +1 commerce but that is not game changing, and I would gain 4 foodhammers for the first settler if I made the sheep before the ivory but that again is neither here nor there and I preferred the tech bonus from getting hunting first.

PBEM62 spoiler (about commodore)

Commodore also in that is not having much issues with India's worker tech light starting techs