{SPOILERS} 2metra, Dreylin & OT4E. This is the beginning of a wonderful friendship.

[Dreylin]

Darius of Ottoman - no change to the Otts, happyduct & Musket that eats obsolete units

Could have sworn he went Ottoman, but now it says Vikings!? Guess he changed his mind.

Adding this to The Netherlands probably implies some other watery starts. I think the map script was Big & Small, but there are wide varieties of water options within that.

[Dreylin]

Before I forget, what do you think about popping the hut with the Scout before we Settle (assuming we plan to settle in place)?

As I understood it, the potential results are different when you pop with a unit verses borders. There's a higher risk-reward for popping with a unit, whereas the borders remove some good and bad options. My memory says that if popped by culture, the Hut can't give tech but also can't generate barbs.

Is there anyone lurking who can clarify?

[Ichabod]

Before I forget, what do you think about popping the hut with the Scout before we Settle (assuming we plan to settle in place)?

As I understood it, the potential results are different when you pop with a unit verses borders. There's a higher risk-reward for popping with a unit, whereas the borders remove some good and bad options. My memory says that if popped by culture, the Hut can't give tech but also can't generate barbs.

Is there anyone lurking who can clarify?

Popping with borders can give a tech, but can't get barbs or xp (so, it has more chances of getting a tech than popping with a unit). Popping huts when you have no cities can't give you tech, though, so the scout moving before the settler settling can't give you a tech. I'm not sure, but I think popping a hut with borders when you settle your first city can't give you a tech either (because it counts as if you don't have a city).

You can't get barbs as a result with a scout, only with a warrior/other units. And there's a rule regarding distance from Capital when getting barbs as a result, so that you can't get them too close to it (perhaps there's a rule regarding number of turns, so you can't get barbs as a result too early, but I'm not sure about that).

[Dreylin]

Before I forget, what do you think about popping the hut with the Scout before we Settle (assuming we plan to settle in place)?

As I understood it, the potential results are different when you pop with a unit verses borders. There's a higher risk-reward for popping with a unit, whereas the borders remove some good and bad options. My memory says that if popped by culture, the Hut can't give tech but also can't generate barbs.

Is there anyone lurking who can clarify?

Popping with borders can give a tech, but can't get barbs or xp (so, it has more chances of getting a tech than popping with a unit). Popping huts when you have no cities can't give you tech, though, so the scout moving before the settler settling can't give you a tech. I'm not sure, but I think popping a hut with borders when you settle your first city can't give you a tech either (because it counts as if you don't have a city).

You can't get barbs as a result with a scout, only with a warrior/other units. And there's a rule regarding distance from Capital when getting barbs as a result, so that you can't get them too close to it (perhaps there's a rule regarding number of turns, so you can't get barbs as a result too early, but I'm not sure about that).

Thanks Ichabod, I guess my memory is worse than I thought!

Although I'd have thought that popping with first city settling should count as having a City - since what creates the borders, if not the city - but it's likely tied up in the order the commands are processed by the code. It could also be something as simple as it can't check what you are able to research, since you need the city to be producing beakers to have the option of selecting a tech. I guess that I can always set it up in WB and spend some time settling and reloading to collate the results...

[Dreylin]

Put my sandbox to use and ran 20x popping with each of Scout & City; no appreciable difference between the two. Mostly gold, with a few maps & Scouts thrown in. Conclusion: pop with the city & send the Scout off.

BTW, I'm traveling tomorrow, but I've offered all my opinions so it's down to what you want to do.

[2metraninja]

Can you add me at gtalk - dimo.neykov at gmail dot com please? I can chat during the day. WIll make it easier for communicating.

[Dreylin]

Can you add me at gtalk - dimo.neykov at gmail dot com please? I can chat during the day. WIll make it easier for communicating.

Done. I'm dreylinwillowbark by the way. I'll be around for the next ~4hrs and then it's packing, child-wrangling and heading to the airport for me.

[Dreylin]

For the Lurkers:

We have chatted a bit about civs. 2metraninja has thrown out 2 additional choices; Portugal & Khmer.

Neither of us is completely sold on Portugal - while it's clear from the picks of Dutch & Vikings that there is more water out there than we can see (and likely some capitals are coastal), it seems like a big risk.

Khmer has perfect starting techs for us, but with the starts not fully balanced are we at risk of not having Ivory nearby? *aside, it's not clear from the mod notes, but are the Ballista Elephants still str8, or have they been nerfed like the basic model?* I haven't played with Barays much and they look a bit "meh" to me, but 2metraninja is positive about them.

We're going to talk more later, but right now I think that Portugal is too much of a risk, Khmer is OK, and I still favour Arabia...

[OT4E]

Ballista elephants have 7 str like others.

Cartage can be a compromise compared to fully sea oriented specialities of Port. Numidians are significantly buffed and considering cheap wealth-buildings we could use them to have 3 promo cavalries for entire game.

[Dreylin]

Hi OT4E,

Unfortunately I had failed to remember that Carthage had already gone!

I'm good with Portugal if that's what we're deciding.