[Spoilers] REM and AdrienIer's thread of football, spamming and blaming it on the mod

[AdrienIer]

You guys didn't happen to double-move us with your scout, did you? I noticed you logged in after me yesterday. You have to give me a chance to react if you're gonna pull this resource-camping bullshit.

He's angry. But IIRC you moved Messi at 2:08 (civstat time) and he played after that at 2:42.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

I replied to him. I'm in work ATM so I dunno if you got a copy of my message but I explained the situation and the fact we have a post about it. I will copy you it when I am out of work.

We need to be more careful about log ins around those times. That was partly my bad for not taking a screenshot, but we do need to watch when we are logging in to have a look.

You're right he does seem pretty angry, and I guess that means he will struggle to react to it this turn but could have last turn is what I infer from his message. (Subtle reading there!)

[AdrienIer]

Got your message. I also send him one. In the answer he gave to your message I find this sentence to be very... enlightening :

I only mentioned this because you were new to PB, and where you placed your scout definitely shows it.

Does he think that PB is all about peacefully building an empire in a quasi-sandbox for half a hundred turns ? Sometimes you feel (not always wisely) that strong measures are to be taken to have a chance, and therefore have to make a douche move like the one we just did to him. From what we've seen so far we're going to be dueling him for the first part of the game (unless our scouting shows another route to someone else ? I doubt it). And he can block us in our small-ish peninsula if we don't play this right. Maybe he will anyway, only the element of surprise may get us the plain hill city plant before he gets there. He's angry and I get it, but one of the main reasons civ4 is great is that you can win by playing the game in very different manners, and PB is no exception.

Anyway I agree that his initial message indicates that he would've loved to have one more turn to respond to our scout move. Messi will survive this turn I guess. I'd love to take one more good look at the game before sleep but of course that would just be insulting now that he's played his turn. It's alright, it's not like a lot will change by the next time I can log in so I'll be patient.

I see this has waken up the lurker thread after 2 weeks of inactivity, at least this incident made something happen in the game. And for the record I'd just like to say that in all the games I play I'd take a million honorable defeats over a shady victory anytime. I've lost Diplomacy games because of that.

Sorry if our report of this incident has been lacking, GJ has probably published all the messages in his thread already so you can check there to follow the 5 or 6 messages that were exchanged, I'm too tired and lazy to do it now.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

Yeah I did think that was a strange comment. Unless it is considered ok to declare for transit and vision but you are required to avoid resources? I cannot believe that he would have stepped onto a non resource square if presented with the option of both... Who knows.

I would consider any declaration for vision as very provocative with or without stepping on a resource. But if he doesn't realise our need to basically duel him to get a decent share of land, or infer that from our moves then we can only be one up on him I guess... We were likely to head for early conflict anyway with the way the land lies so if he is annoyed then it doesn't matter too much!

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

GJ:
You guys didn't happen to double-move us with your scout, did you? I noticed you logged in after me yesterday. You have to give me a chance to react if you're gonna pull this resource-camping bullshit.

REM:
No I moved the scout the turn before and then ended the turn because I had moved all our units. I did also post about moving the scout in our thread, and checking if ad agreed to the declaration actually if you want TBS to confirm it.

Adrienlier just jumped in to have a look after I suggested moving into your land I guess. I'm sorry, we are new to the pitboss environment, and although we did move before you last turn I guess ad didn't think of any issues it may cause logging in to have a look.

Ps if this only gets sent to you I'm sorry I'm on tapatalk at work

GJ:
I only mentioned this because you were new to PB, and where you placed your scout definitely shows it. Logging in before and after your war opponents is extremely suspicious. If you have documented proof, however, then there's nothing else to be done.

REM:
I understand, and we didn't mean to make it look dodgy. We're both just a bit keen is all. I do apologise for making it look suspicious, and we will make sure to be careful when we login in the future. Good job we are spamming our spoiler thread!

Enjoy the rest of the game dude, and sorry again for the confusion.


There's the full convo I had with him. Not much else to say about it really! Was an error in hindsight to log in to see what is happening, but easily done. We just need to be careful for the war now to be whiter than white. I assume he has nothing that he can move onto the sheep square, so if not whoever plays the turn moves the scout there? and if no warrior seen tries to get to his capitals east? If we are both ok with this we should be able to fully play the turn in one go.

I think Ronaldo should go E then N. That way we will have full visibility on all southern tiles. Webb can continue to the east now.

Let's hope they agree to a ceasefire after the scout is past their cap/dead. I really don't want a longstanding turn order milarky...

[AdrienIer]

I send him this message at the same time you answered his initial PM :

AI : I checked in after REM (and you, although I didn't notice that till just now) but the scout move was made before that. Lurkers can testify that REM posted about moving the scout. Sorry if that mislead you, I'll just be more patient next time.

Now with the turn (t23 now) :

I started with Messi's move. This changes everything :

Unless there's something hidden behind that forest in the south he has no "east" to expand into. He'll plant his second city around the copper and then we're screwed. There might be another player in the north. But we are truly going to duel him till one of us is dead, there's no other way.

Ronaldo found fish near the tundra silver, that's good :

Webb found nothing going SE, next is NE NE NE NE.

Finally here's a shot of the cap (EA is a pretty good short name), I put the chop into a settler as we decided, and picked the lake as the 3rd tile.

The news about no land in the east is pretty bad for us. Should we try for a first city at his border ? 14 tiles from the cap is really, really far so not sure.

[The Black Sword]

I see this has waken up the lurker thread after 2 weeks of inactivity, at least this incident made something happen in the game.

The first rule of lurker threads; they're never on topic.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

I see this has waken up the lurker thread after 2 weeks of inactivity, at least this incident made something happen in the game.

The first rule of lurker threads; they're never on topic.

Woo a second lurker!

Now onto the real stuff. Wow was not expecting that . I was expecting them to have a fair bit of land to the east... Perhaps our iceball palace is nicer? Hard to say. But that does change things hugely... We can expect at least city 3 if not 2 by the copper. I really do not want to be hemmed in here. I doubt we will ever get open borders from them, and that choke point will be murder to attack, although if we beelined our UU cata we could probably take it, it would be a bloody war of attrition that would be hard to win.

They do have islands to the east of them though, and a very slim chance of something else being in the south I suppose. But now we know they do not have much I think we need to be extra aggressive here.

Good news on the western fish. We can have 3 semi productive cities there at least. Better than I initially thought. Now what he needs to find is some galleyable landmass to the west and we might be able to do an eco game... I'm hoping for some more fish next to the plains hill!

Bad news for Webb. Do you think it is worth sending him SW. I personally do not think so. We could eventually have a filler city right on the southernmost peak of the island there using the deer, a city on the wolf sign tile with sheep and one on the ice hill too perhaps, without any further map knowledge I think.

So at the moment moves are Ronaldo to make his way to the plains hill, Webb to clear the coast up to GJ and the worker following the micro plan.

What do you think Messi should do? I think GJ still realises that we wanted map information, especially with the way our scout has moved so I think his anger will dissipate shortly. If no warrior turns up I think best move would be west then south? Anything else without asking for peace now will likely piss him off moreso... Then we could ask for peace if nothing else shows up? Although we will need to be careful of doing that because if our scout gets teleported next to his warrior then he would easily be killed (I'm assuming he has a warrior, whoever plays next turn should take screenshots of the graphs)

However we could just go nuclear and move back to sit on a resource - part of me likes that idea a lot :P but I think that would lock war in for the foreseeable future.

I think if no warrior W then S, if a warrior comes from the south then we go W then N. If he comes from one of the western tiles then I am not so sure. Do we want to sacrifice Messi to be 100% certain that there is no southern land? I am about 98% convinced now. I think if he comes from the west we either move back out onto the pig if that will keep Messi safe or 1E of that if he appears on the hill. Then at the same time we offer peace so he can choose either getting the most out of his tiles or not having a 10 turn peace treaty...


As to settling, one thing that seems not to have crossed your mind is that if we take that copper, we will probably take his only source of copper. That is a big bonus. In fact maybe even skirmish winning. What we need to do is work out what he has teched - he started with mining, so has he gone down the BW route or the an hus route for chariots. If he has gone down that route we need to tile watch to see if one suddenly gains a hammer so we know he has horses. We currently have a pretty good view of all the tiles around there, but I think to see the hammer appear we need to know he owns that square from memory.

Secondly, we need to get the sandbox out and do a few things;
1) Test how expensive settling each city is. If it costs us like 5gpt there then we will kill our tech rate. If the difference between the 2 spots is only 1 or 2 gold then that isn't as bad.
2) See how long it takes to get the settler there in the sandbox
3) See if we can cover the settler from animals there in the sandbox.
4) Make sure we DO NOT lose hinduism or that plant will fail because we will not be able to pick up the bronze fast.
5) work out how best to develop it, and if it is viable to be able to be developed... It will be a fair way from worker support, although we could sail a workboat from the cap to there. Perhaps we could just dash our worker there with the settler, although that isn't efficient in worker turns.
6) Keep some decent C/D on them and check their power to make sure they don't put out many units
7) If they are stuck to archers and possibly HA then maybe we can get a quick kill with those new swords. Just did some testing and combat 1/CR1 have odds on fully fortified archers with CG1 on a flatland tile of around 60%... If they manage to get horse and tech to numids they may be able to fight their way out but vs spears and swords using defensive terrain we *should* prevail.

I can do some simming this week, I am off work so should have a bit of time

Now I type this as well it would be a good idea to check that they haven't met anyone else - with their EPs. I don't think there is another way of doing it is there?

Long message there - what do you think? I do believe if we can steal their copper with a hindu holy city then we can beat them fairly quickly in a duel. Unless they have easily accessible iron... But a build up and a race to put city 3 on there may be a good idea. Just have to be careful they don't settle one away from the copper, and hook it for a quick kill. Settling it as 3 would definitely make us work for the copper.

[AdrienIer]

I'm against sending Webb SW, remember Ronaldo will go for the copper location then pop the hut and then will be available to make sure we haven't forgotten anything in our scouting, and that location is so remote that it can definitely wait till he does all that. For Messi it all depends on what GJ did in his turn, but I don't expect any warrior to show up for some reason. I was wondering whether W SE was worth it ? Or W S ?

I realize that he only has that one copper, but I expect his second city to be 2N4W of his capital so even a hindu holy city wouldn't be able to take that copper from him easily.
If I'm not mistaken the settler takes 8 turns to get to the location, without roads. We can check once the turn rolls but I'm expecting 7 with roads. We'd be taking the risk of animals annoying us on the way though, even with Webb in the area. The rest I agree with, we'll need to be careful about graphs and stuff. Of course if they see we're taking their copper they'll run for IW but with some luck it's not too close to the capital so we would have some time to prepare.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

Yeah that's ok, Webb goes NE then.

The scout should go W then S. SE is ok but would have vision to the tile below blocked by the hill. It terms of being chased there by a warrior they both have the same tile movement options next turn.

We are out of worker micro now, nothing will affect the turn of the first settler. The plan is to move to the grass hill to road it for faster settler movement now!

A hindu holy city would easily take the copper in its second ring even if he planted for copper first ring. Theres a great article on plot culutre of CFC, basically we would put 5 cpt on that plot whilst it is our second ring, and then 20+5 when we have our third ring.
However they will have 1 culture there until they build a culture building there (being agg assuming it is a barracks) and get 1 cpt there before their borders pop and then 1 + 20 after.

So until they hit third level culture and start putting down ? + 40 culture we should easily be able to own that tile. But this all assumes a holy city... Bet we log in now and it has gone this turn :P

For tests and completeness if you play the turn can you get a wide shot of the map if you play the turn with resource bubbles on? It's hard to put the zoomed in screenshots together to know exactly where things are.

I think if we use the two warriors and possibly the scout in tandem we should just about be able to cover the settler legging it there.