[Spoilers] PBEM 62 - Ichabod's Thread, feat. Mardoc and retep

[retep]

I just pop to say that things looks good. Archery sounds fine as well the idea for GLH. There was no save today so I guess there isn't much to comment

[Ichabod]

These units probably get us to 2nd place in power. Problem is, 1st place has a lot more.

I'm ok with the Bear Survival Strategy

(do they tell that joke in Brazil?)

No, I never heard it. You need to tell us.

---

THH accepted OB, which gives us +5 commerce. Not a lot, but it helps. Commodore offered OB and I declined. No sense in helping the guy in first place. I offered OB to Dazed instead, so we can fill up our TRs.

Commodore is at 7 cities, just like us. Damn, I liked more when we were the guys with most cities. On the bright side, Pindicator is up to 3 cities. Again, he won't be a pushover on this game, which is very good for us.




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Mids plan. Finally, we start really putting hammers in it.




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With no invasion in sight from THH and our warrior already in place, I sent the scout N, to explore that part of the world. It'll connect to our south soon. I think there's a great chance that all that area is up to us to settle.




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And the big moment of the turn. We got our first Judaism spread. And to a very nice place, OT! By the way, Judaism is already the biggest religion in the world (7%). Hinduism doesn't exist anymore and I think Buddhism hasn't got a single spread yet (3%). Lucky us!




This makes me think, by the way. Perhaps getting TGLh in OT is better than in GT. Yes, it's a more exposed city, but it already has religion, it needs a lighthouse and the city has a big production capability, with copper and cows. I'll try and make some tests to see how fast we can get it in each city...

Ah, there'll be a farm for OT to work next turn (growth in 2 turns), it won't work that ugly forest tile.

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Finally, demographics after ending turn:

[Ichabod]

If we don't go for the GLh in OT, I think I'll start a missionary now, to get religion on the marble city.

[Mardoc]

These units probably get us to 2nd place in power. Problem is, 1st place has a lot more.

I'm ok with the Bear Survival Strategy

(do they tell that joke in Brazil?)

No, I never heard it. You need to tell us.

For background, you need to know that bears are one of the scariest predators in North America - especially Grizzly Bears. They're two or three times bigger than a man, they've got nasty claws and deadly teeth. They can run up to about forty miles/hour (uh, 70 km/hr), and they can climb trees, so you can't get away from them. But you really can't fight a bear on your own either, not unless you have a big gun and some luck.

After two hundred years of hunting, they're pretty rare. Lots of people go their whole life without actually seeing a bear. And hiking in the wilderness is a fun thing to do. It's relaxing, being away from everyone. So, one day, a lawyer was on vacation, and he went to a national park, where guns are banned. He hired a guide, and they went wandering away from all the other people. Sure enough, they came into a clearing, and they spotted a bear. And worse, the bear spotted them!

The bear was big, and mean looking. And he looked hungry. Before they could back away, the bear starts moving toward them.

The lawyer starts to panic. "Oh, man, what do we do, what do we do?!". He looks around, grabs a dead branch from the ground, and starts to cry in fear. That's an awfully skinny branch, and an awfully big bear. Then he looks at the guide, to ask him how to fight a bear. But he's confused! The guide isn't preparing to fight! Instead, he dropped his backpack, and pulled out a pair of running shoes. He's calmly replacing his boots with these shoes, checking the laces, stretching.

"What are you doing! Everyone knows you can't outrun a bear. Get a club or something and help me fight it."

The guide looks back at him, and smiles. "I don't have to outrun the bear. I only have to outrun you."

[Ichabod]

These units probably get us to 2nd place in power. Problem is, 1st place has a lot more.

I'm ok with the Bear Survival Strategy

(do they tell that joke in Brazil?)

No, I never heard it. You need to tell us.

For background, you need to know that bears are one of the scariest predators in North America - especially Grizzly Bears. They're two or three times bigger than a man, they've got nasty claws and deadly teeth. They can run up to about forty miles/hour (uh, 70 km/hr), and they can climb trees, so you can't get away from them. But you really can't fight a bear on your own either, not unless you have a big gun and some luck.

After two hundred years of hunting, they're pretty rare. Lots of people go their whole life without actually seeing a bear. And hiking in the wilderness is a fun thing to do. It's relaxing, being away from everyone. So, one day, a lawyer was on vacation, and he went to a national park, where guns are banned. He hired a guide, and they went wandering away from all the other people. Sure enough, they came into a clearing, and they spotted a bear. And worse, the bear spotted them!

The bear was big, and mean looking. And he looked hungry. Before they could back away, the bear starts moving toward them.

The lawyer starts to panic. "Oh, man, what do we do, what do we do?!". He looks around, grabs a dead branch from the ground, and starts to cry in fear. That's an awfully skinny branch, and an awfully big bear. Then he looks at the guide, to ask him how to fight a bear. But he's confused! The guide isn't preparing to fight! Instead, he dropped his backpack, and pulled out a pair of running shoes. He's calmly replacing his boots with these shoes, checking the laces, stretching.

"What are you doing! Everyone knows you can't outrun a bear. Get a club or something and help me fight it."

The guide looks back at him, and smiles. "I don't have to outrun the bear. I only have to outrun you."

Makes sense.

It seems like Dazed is our lawyer in this particular hike.

[Ichabod]

From the average power demos and the graphs, I think I can safely say that both Dazed and THH have a big army. So, they are in a cold war situation...

Here's an idea: road the horses and gift them to Pindicator. If Commodore is not paying attention, he could get hurt from some surprise chariots. Since Pindi only has bronze, there's no reason for Commo to build spears, just axes. What do you guys think? Besides, this sends the message to Pindi that we want to be friends.

I'm starting to become afraid that I'll stagnate my Civ, the way I'm playing right now. I'm feel like I'm just going through the motions... So, I need to think!

Here's some things to think about:

1. PPM will build a settler next, for the island city W of GT. Is it worth whipping this settler? I think that, even if I whip, I'll have the galley and WB for the new city ready in time. If we 2-pop whip, we'll stop working ivory and a cottage, which is not a big loss. We'll settle the new city some 3-4 turns earlier and we'll start growing on a library in PPM sooner...

This is the kind of decision that I don't even know how to begin analyzing to figure out what's best... My gut says whipping is best, though, since the new city will have the needed infra already prepared and PPM won't stop working great tiles.

2. GT will have a bad time on the next turns, when we settle the marble city, because it'll lose the corn (until marble city gets its pigs). My plan is to stagnate the city on two mines + cottages (the most we can work). We need to whip GT for the galley and WB too. So, since we are on a race to grow the city as much as we can before stagnation, I think it's best to whip next turn, from 5 to 3, instead of growing more and then whipping, because regrowing from 3 -> 5 requires less food then growing from 5 -> 7, so we can probably reach a higher size before marble city is settled.

Is this a good plan? The stagnation? The whipping right now?

3. I think we can safely assume Commodore will go for MoM, since he has marble, writing (maths) and he wants to win the game. I agree with retep that MoM is "nerfed" on a smaller map and a little bit more for a spiritual civ. I say we forgo MoM and we focus on other objectives. I also think Commodore will go for the Colossus, since I bet he oracled MC (or did he? Could he have oracled calendar?). Again, not so hot of a build here. It helps, but the map is not that watery and most of it is salt water anyway. Do you guys agree to give up on these?

I really like the idea of TGLibrary. With Rep, TGLb gives us 15 beakers per turn, which is pretty considerable, + the GPP. It's 104 hammers only with Marble + OR, so we'd just chop the 4 forests in EG and a bit of normal production. I think it's a worthy idea.

Going for Library also puts the Music GA in reach. It's a possibility...

4. We need a GP plan. Here's a thought: get a library in LS and plan to get the first GP there (scientists + engi points). Why? Because we get a chance for a GEngineer, which is always nice... Or is it? What would we use him for so early? Any ideas? Perhaps a straight up GSci is better? With an Academy in the Capital, TGLb is 21 beakers per turn, which is pretty good.

Perhaps we get a GSci elsewhere and we plan to get a GEngineer from LS for the Taj Mahal? If planned right, I think Mids + forge engineer + GA + Pacifism could get us there...

So... We could do something like: Civil Service (through CoL) -> Music (Golden Age with GA; finish GEng from LS; get another GSci to bulb Philo while saving gold) -> Nationalism (Taj Mahal from GE) -> Another GA from 2 GP generated during the GA? -> Backfill + Guilds?

5. Civil Service is also a worthy goal. If we plan accordingly, we can have a very big Capital, with loads of developed cottages to work when we reach bureaucracy. I agree with retep's idea of cottaging the grass hills, otherwise we won't have that much tiles to work there.

That means I need to keep improving the tiles near the Capital and managing ways to work them with LS, PPM and Milk. So, I need to keep some workers behind for that. The workers currently improving PPM were going to be sent to Marble City, but I guess I'll leave them behind. The workers chopping the Mids can go to Marble city, especially since MC won't need tiles to work for a "long" time (I plan to steal the already improved corn and whip a granary).

6. The island city W of GT needs a granary and a lighthouse. I need to spread religion there and a second work boat. After that, do we start the Moai there? It needs 75 hammers with OR + stone. So, what's the best way of building it? Whipping and overflowing, I'd guess, but whipping what? Missionaries + units? Seems like appropriate builds.

Getting the Moai ready before our first GA is a good bonus.

7. Any love for the Hanging Gardens? Since we are the only ones with Stone, I'm guessing there won't be a big competition... How many cities would make it worth? I think we could manage to get it with something like 11/12 cities, if other player aren't really interested in it.

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Complicated post, I know. Again, spewing everything out makes it easier for me to focus and see the problems on these approaches.

[Ichabod]

And here's a question for the general public: how do you use Pyramids effectively? My main difficulty is thinking about how to coordinate between working scientists, growing your cities and working cottages... Do you work scientists even without reaching happy cap?

I think it's probably a case by case thing, there's not a generic rule. But if someone could give some insights about it, I'll be grateful.

[Mardoc]

Here's an idea: road the horses and gift them to Pindicator. If Commodore is not paying attention, he could get hurt from some surprise chariots. Since Pindi only has bronze, there's no reason for Commo to build spears, just axes. What do you guys think? Besides, this sends the message to Pindi that we want to be friends.

Two bits: I want to have a couple chariots of our own first. And I would expect Commodore to notice at least when he's hit. So only do it if we can handle his revenge.

1. PPM will build a settler next, for the island city W of GT. Is it worth whipping this settler? I think that, even if I whip, I'll have the galley and WB for the new city ready in time. If we 2-pop whip, we'll stop working ivory and a cottage, which is not a big loss. We'll settle the new city some 3-4 turns earlier and we'll start growing on a library in PPM sooner...

This is the kind of decision that I don't even know how to begin analyzing to figure out what's best... My gut says whipping is best, though, since the new city will have the needed infra already prepared and PPM won't stop working great tiles.

I would definitely whip it. Otherwise you're wasting a lot of PPM's food.

3. I think we can safely assume Commodore will go for MoM, since he has marble, writing (maths) and he wants to win the game. I agree with retep that MoM is "nerfed" on a smaller map and a little bit more for a spiritual civ. I say we forgo MoM and we focus on other objectives. I also think Commodore will go for the Colossus, since I bet he oracled MC (or did he? Could he have oracled calendar?). Again, not so hot of a build here. It helps, but the map is not that watery and most of it is salt water anyway. Do you guys agree to give up on these?

I don't think we have enough information to know what he will and won't go for just yet. I know he likes the Colossus and it's the traditional Oracle play, but I don't know for sure.

That said, yes, we can let them go. Mids + TGL is enough in my opinion. They'll open our economy up and let us build a lot more cities, so we'll want settlers and units.

Edit: Besides, Colossus and Mids push in opposite directions on how to run our cities. Do we try to grow onto a ton of coast tiles, or slow up and make sure we run specialists?

I really like the idea of TGLibrary. With Rep, TGLb gives us 15 beakers per turn, which is pretty considerable, + the GPP. It's 104 hammers only with Marble + OR, so we'd just chop the 4 forests in EG and a bit of normal production. I think it's a worthy idea.

Probably worth trying, assuming we can get marble at a reasonable time. And assuming we actually get Mids - worth a lot less if we don't.

4. We need a GP plan.

I don't think I have any useful things to say until we know what wonders we're getting. Except that I do think an Academy in our capital will be the best use of a GP right away, and it'd be nice to get a shrine (although not vital). But any GP is a good GP.

6. The island city W of GT needs a granary and a lighthouse. I need to spread religion there and a second work boat. After that, do we start the Moai there? It needs 75 hammers with OR + stone. So, what's the best way of building it? Whipping and overflowing, I'd guess, but whipping what? Missionaries + units? Seems like appropriate builds.

Getting the Moai ready before our first GA is a good bonus.

Are you sure that's the best place for the Moai? I think we should build it somewhere with at least a little bit of base hammers.

But the important thing is to get it building soon.

7. Any love for the Hanging Gardens? Since we are the only ones with Stone, I'm guessing there won't be a big competition... How many cities would make it worth? I think we could manage to get it with something like 11/12 cities, if other player aren't really interested in it.

It would help us grow into Representation happy caps and start working scientists sooner .

The no-brainer break-even is eight cities. That's when the 8 population worth of whips exceeds the cost of HG + aqueduct. If you can use any of the health bonuses, then it's even better. Although as Expansive, I bet we already have way more health than happy. And of course engineer GPP are always useful.

So basically I think it's worth going for now, more worth going for by the time we're actually ready for it. My only worry is security. This is a lot of wonders we're considering, at some point someone's going to want to take them from us. Or dogpile us. And someone's way ahead on GNP the last time you showed that. But I guesss you're talking about plans for the next 20+ turns, and all the other cities can work on units. We won't look scary until the mids come in, at least.

[spacetyrantxenu]

And here's a question for the general public: how do you use Pyramids effectively?

[Ichabod]

I had a revelation and I think I realized why the Mids are so good.

Library + 2 scientists with Rep = 15 beakers. That's an insane crutch in the early game, it helps you limp to whatever tech you want. It's the same as building wealth, but is more cost effective. Wealth would give 8g (2 plains hill mines), which is 10 beakers through library. But, when you factor that:

*You need to have 2 plains mines, but very few cities actually have them and, early game, that's a lot of "lost" worker turns.
*Not every city has a library, so 8 gold does not equal 10 beakers.
*While you build wealth, you can't build anything else.
*Great Person Points.

The mids crutch is way better than the Wealth one. But there's even more - you can use both with Mids!

So, we run scientists everytime we need to reach a tech fast, just like we'd want with wealth. That + when we want the GPP.

Am I onto something here?