{SPOILERS} 2metra, Dreylin & OT4E. This is the beginning of a wonderful friendship.

[2metraninja]

Good analyze and all good questions.

[Dreylin]

Good analyze and all good questions.

Er, thanks? Supportive, and yet entirely unhelpful!

No sims tonight as I'm feeling pretty bad. We have a turn before Myst completes so hopefully I'll feel better tomorrow.

Here's the promised overview:



A couple of additional thoughts:

* If we continue the push to Judaism we'll be going Masonry next so I think we should go with the Stoneville->Coppertown plan

* If we want to push forward toward dtay (Overlook Pass next), we should go for AH -> Pottery and allow Samarkand to grow.

[OT4E]

* Copper: City #3 or City #4 (to sim tonight)

Imho - #3. We need to play safely and no need to hurry with or anything else.

*If Stoneville: do we try for Stonehenge?

Not yet, too expensive, need to grow.

* Judaism: Yes / No?

No,it takes too long, we cant delay pottery, AH and growth of #2.

* If no, what tech next?

AH, need to stop farming our horse finally!

[OT4E]

I think that we need to follow our global goals and not to chase rabbits we are not sure we can get. It doesnt mean that the one who has taken Polytheism will go for Mono too. But our chances are not high enough to start this race.

What we really need is constant rate of slaving. We will need spears and they cost a lot of hammers, we must consider getting axes too since we have bonus on them and may be make some pressure on dtay.

We need to decide on city placement and develop special strategy for each city. In each case we need to find out what is better in the result to slave with 2 pop but more often or to slave with 1 but less regularly.
Any other ideas we must compare to this "ideal" expansion plan. I am going to work on it when I get some time.

But in my understading we have the following opportunities besides "dull safety expansion":
1) We can try to make henge in the middle of map if it remains untaken. But we dont rush masonry too soon.
2) We can try to make GLH in the city to SE. Wont be too soon but may be worth to try it.
3) We can try late pyramids with maths in furs city or in the cap.
Both Sailing and Maths lies on the path to Calendar which we obviously need.

Our position against dtay depends on his actions. If he doesnt settle too agressive, I'd not recommend to rush him except may be keeping small fortified attention groups. His land is not that good to make us run there in desperate attack.
If we decide to attack we need to consider ironworking. Our swords covered with some shocked axes will not be vunirable to his melee. And swordmen are awesome in this mod. But I dont like melee stacks especially with such distances like we have now.

[Dreylin]

I think we broadly agree on the generalities, but differ on the specifics.

I agree that we're in danger of pursuing the two rabbits (and since I was simming past Hunting at the weekend, it was certainly on my mind), and I agree that expansion is out #1 priority. For this reason alone I agree that the push to Judaism would be a mistake at this point.

Expansion to Coppertown is a definite need, but how we go about it is a question. I have concerns with pushing for it straight away as City#3 because of its distance from our current holdings. We will want to send at least two of our Workers ahead to road the route so Copper connects back to the Cap immediately, and we only have 2 Warriors that can act as guards for them and for the subsequent Settler. This leaves us open to an animal really ruining our game. It also leaves those 2+Workers well away from home, although if we put City #4 out in that direction as well (either Stoneville or Overlook Pass) they can work on the way back to the core. IMO planting City#3 closer to home to support the push to Copper as City#4 is the safer play and does not delay settling by too many turns.

If we agree to plant a City#3 on the way to Coppertown, it becomes a choice between Stoneville and Overlook Pass. I'd like your thoughts on the location for Overlook Pass - there is no way of planting an immediately profitable city in this area as there are no good food resources to grab, however I think that the hill is the best spot long-term as it spaces better with surrounding city sites and will be able to work a lot of Cottages & Watermills in the future. Short-term though it's crap without a Border pop and even with one it's a slow burner. The only reason I'm suggesting this area is that it supports the push both to Coppertown and the central spot in one city. To get it working ASAP, I would plan to time Farming the northern Silk at Samarkand to send the chop into the city the turn it's founded, into Monument to get the borders popped and give access to the Sugar tiles & FPs. Actually, once the borders have popped I think this city will be quite good!

On Stonehenge and Stoneville: I agree that grabbing Stonehenge in the central spot would be fantastic, but we're not going to be getting out there for another 20+turns, and I just don't think SH will last that long. I personally think that it lasting even until t51 is optimistic, but I also still think that we should give it a go. Why? Because the cities that we want to settle towards dtay will all want border pops sooner rather than later - primarily to grab resources, but also to add cultural defenses quickly and take the pressure off our military. Overlook Pass is a good example of a city that needs a border pop to be useful, and the central site is another (although that has many forests to chop into something). Landing SH in Samarkand would also push our culture forward in a key area that we want to expand into in the short-term.

I have to confess that I've been hoping to open the game the last few turns and see Stonehenge fallen to take away the option, but unless that happens at the next turn roll, I'm going to continue to push for Stoneville and Masonry next until I'm overruled / outvoted, so 2metra might need to show up and make a casting vote!

[Dreylin]

Thoughts on dtay (in no particular order):

He is not reporting this game (only 8 posts in his thread); whether that indicates disengagement or not, I don't know. His PB18 reporting has died off quite a lot recently as well, so maybe it's a life thing (or maybe the extra game has taken away his reporting time).

I think his land is worse than ours: his is more Plains than Grass, while ours is the opposite. We also have Flood Plains, which he does not. We have a lot of green land to our South - he has a lot of brown land to his North. For this reason I think he will be prioritising settling into the fertile lands between us.

His first city went backwards for the Gems and (presumably) Copper - as of last turn the Gems showed as Mined, but the Copper did not.

His scouting has been worse than ours; he has not met Commodore, so his Scout heading North did not make it up the land bridge as we had suspected. His other Scout also probably died in the centre of the map as evidenced by that injured Lion. That Scout had seen our Capital borders but turned straight around. I think he has probably circled his Capital for 1st-ring sites, but after that has very limited map knowledge. He does not know that we have the Sea at our back; he does not know that he has lots of land and Commodore to his North. Also, by our keeping EP spend solely on him he does not know that we are not simply dueling over this landmass (which we really are anyway TBH).

He is currently equal to us on the Power rankings. We have Wheel and we're pretty sure he has AH, so I think that means that he does not have Wheel? I also think that he has 3 Quechuas, since we have a higher Pop than him. He showed one to us this turn as Dolly passed the NE of his Cap, so we need to be cautious as she passes around to confirm his second city spot.

I think we are well placed to slowly pull ahead of him and then eat him later....

[OT4E]

I have to confess that I've been hoping to open the game the last few turns and see Stonehenge fallen to take away the option, but unless that happens at the next turn roll, I'm going to continue to push for Stoneville and Masonry next until I'm overruled / outvoted, so 2metra might need to show up and make a casting vote!

Your thoughts about the best logistics while building SH are reasonable. I am not voting against. I only think that everything must be compared to some example without it. Looking on the land I'd choose not expand far and plant around the cap with the main focus on coast. The map is full of seafood. You could notice that dtay has nice sources of it to the south but probably he doesnt know details.

Stoneville can be our first cottage center. Coopertown will be able to grow some cottages for it in the nearest future.

[OT4E]

Dtay's power explained:


He doesnt have The Wheel. And, yes, he has 3 Queuchas.

[Dreylin]

I have to confess that I've been hoping to open the game the last few turns and see Stonehenge fallen to take away the option, but unless that happens at the next turn roll, I'm going to continue to push for Stoneville and Masonry next until I'm overruled / outvoted, so 2metra might need to show up and make a casting vote!

Your thoughts about the best logistics while building SH are reasonable. I am not voting against. I only think that everything must be compared to some example without it. Looking on the land I'd choose not expand far and plant around the cap with the main focus on coast. The map is full of seafood. You could notice that dtay has nice sources of it to the south but probably he doesnt know details.

Stoneville can be our first cottage center. Coppertown will be able to grow some cottages for it in the nearest future.

OK, but I am going to take that as a vote against an early push to the frontline site. I've been having doubts about pushing that far right away. It's a great site for a future border city with dtay, but settling there early will be very expensive especially compared to circling the Capital. As you say we've got some very nice sites South and East (as more seafood is revealed) and the tighter empire will be more cost-effective.

If we're not pushing West in the near future, then there's no benefit to planting Overland Pass as City #3 rather than Stoneville ... and distance maintenance and utility are 2 good reasons not to. So that narrows our focus.

I think that we're really looking at the following:

1) Stoneville -> Coppertown w/o Stonehenge push - this has been simmed for Worker moves, but build choices need to be reviewed in light of different tech priorities.

2) Stoneville -> Coppertown with Stonehenge push - I have a feeling the delays here are of the order of 3-4turns to have Coppertown at an equivalent spot to (1)

3) Coppertown -> Stoneville - Stoneville as city #4 gives the Workers something to do on the way back to the core and supports the new settlement. It also is immediately able to pull a high-food resource (Cap Corn) to grow, which no other options can do.

4) Coppertown -> Crabopolis - sending city #4 south instead (we may want to convert the Sheep before we head in this direction)

[Dreylin]

He doesnt have The Wheel. And, yes, he has 3 Queuchas.

Thanks!

& Yay, I'm not completely out of touch!