RB Pitboss #1 SPOILER - Hatshepsut / India

[regoarrarr]

Chat transcript

(11:16:40 AM) me: so do you think an attack on exploit on t190 is good?
(11:18:17 AM) sunrise089: ah, i see the new email
(11:18:35 AM) sunrise089: well, no, not really
(11:18:53 AM) sunrise089: I think no one should trade him another tech and then we atttack with rifles upgraded to mechanized infantry
(11:19:32 AM) me: do you think that we can do that?
(11:19:40 AM) sunrise089: but I dont think we can pull that off, so maybe an attack now will be good. But what are the chances we end up in a 4v7 if we do that, since Exploit will make the case for shady to then atack you
(11:24:52 AM) me: decent
(11:25:18 AM) me: coudl we use the in-game "stop trading with"
(11:25:24 AM) me: every 10t
(11:25:35 AM) me: to ensure that?
(11:27:20 AM) sunrise089: perhaps
(11:49:58 AM) sunrise089: so first, assuming we do want to attack, I think we have a fair chance of making an impact on Exploit 4v1
(11:50:12 AM) sunrise089: however the defender has obvious advantages, and we'll get collateraled as we know
(11:50:15 AM) me: the 4th being? broker?
(11:50:18 AM) sunrise089: yeah
(11:50:32 AM) me: up through lin lands?
(11:50:39 AM) me: or on the other side
(11:50:54 AM) me: http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/64/globeshot2.jpg
(11:50:59 AM) sunrise089: on t191, when my NAP ends, I could probably bring in 25 rifles, and maybe 15 supporting units, including some machine guns if RR gets completed in time
(11:53:01 AM) sunrise089: I think if we do attack, the odds are high of some sort of backstab and attack from the rear, since civs seam very susceptible to exploit's "bribes," as if 2 cities from Imhotep's land will make or break someone's game at this point
(11:53:14 AM) me: agreed
(11:53:20 AM) sunrise089: if we could ensure no such backstab, I think we can at least survive an attack
(11:53:38 AM) me: brb
(11:53:43 AM) sunrise089: ok
(12:00:18 PM) me: back
(12:00:23 PM) sunrise089: ok
(12:02:36 PM) sunrise089: ok, email sent
(12:02:45 PM) me: interesting reply from dreylin re: shady
(12:04:56 PM) me: would it be better to arrange things so that only you border me from that side?
(12:06:11 PM) sunrise089: you dont border the lins, do you?
(12:06:16 PM) sunrise089: just me and exploit?
(12:06:27 PM) me: correct
(12:06:30 PM) me: (and shady and imho)
(12:06:40 PM) me: http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/64/globeshot2.jpg
(12:07:23 PM) sunrise089: so what are we hoping to gain from this war?
(12:07:41 PM) me: well what i'd like to get is removal of exploit as a threat
(12:07:47 PM) me: w/o turning me into an uber threat
(12:07:47 PM) sunrise089: do you think we would have enough to eliminate exploit?
(12:07:55 PM) me: if we could truly get everyone else
(12:08:17 PM) sunrise089: yeah, that would be ideal...we could even agree to just "leave the land to the barbs" or something
(12:08:28 PM) me: that was broker's in tent i think
(12:08:29 PM) me: intent
(12:08:41 PM) me: like i said to dreylin
(12:08:45 PM) sunrise089: but assuming we can't, I think we could capture cities, but if exploit's empire is based on many weak cities I don't know if taking 4 cities knocks him out
(12:08:45 PM) me: i don't need any of it but that island city
(12:08:54 PM) me: right
(12:09:42 PM) sunrise089: now attacking may make him slave his pop down or whatnot...but 1) he isnt really researching that much, is he? and 2) I've already hurt my gold production a lot, so at best that's just a tie for me
(12:09:55 PM) sunrise089: so all in all i dont favor a war, i favor a tech embargo
(12:09:56 PM) me: he's researching decent
(12:09:59 PM) me: he's in caste/rep
(12:10:03 PM) me: /merc
(12:10:07 PM) me: 400bpt i think
(12:10:15 PM) me: yeah i cost more than you make now i think
(12:10:17 PM) me: 267 to -279
(12:10:37 PM) sunrise089: right...but i go back to bureau in 2 turns, so that will help
(12:10:43 PM) me: cool
(12:10:46 PM) me: rr still due in 4
(12:11:11 PM) me: so speaking of tech, it occurred to me that if we think broker is much less likely to jump hsip than dsp
(12:11:24 PM) me: that it would behoove us to make sure that broker or me take the most crucial military techs
(12:11:36 PM) sunrise089: that's true
(12:11:50 PM) me: i was thinking the next 3 techs would be ass. line, combustion and physics
(12:12:00 PM) me: seems like physics for dsp would be the best, but broker was wanting the g. sci
(12:12:04 PM) sunrise089: is the physics scientist out there?>
(12:12:07 PM) me: yes
(12:12:31 PM) me: but i would not really want dsp controlling infantry or destroyers
(12:12:41 PM) sunrise089: hmm
(12:13:02 PM) sunrise089: you may recall I did say that if the anti-exploit alliance fragmented I may just accept exploit's half-gold peace offer
(12:13:08 PM) me: on a related note, i could really use communism, not only for the great spy (bomb exploit)
(12:13:12 PM) me: but for state property
(12:13:22 PM) me: let me forward you the latest email from exploit
(12:13:35 PM) me: "bringing peace to imhotep"
(12:14:30 PM) me: also imhotep cut off broker's 72gpt
(12:15:28 PM) sunrise089: ok
(12:15:42 PM) sunrise089: well exploit's plan is probably to just remove our lead time to railroad, right?
(12:15:52 PM) sunrise089: once again not the most clever ploy
(12:16:43 PM) sunrise089: also, i dont undertand the last paragraph - why would we NOT want me in on the NAP? So it ties Incan troops down...but it ties them down from attacking Imhotep, right?
(12:17:09 PM) me: yeah i certainly wouldn't want to take it w/o including you
(12:17:27 PM) me: this does provide options for the lins and/or broker to attack?
(12:17:37 PM) sunrise089: but I don't even see why exploit made the offer? Like what reason would he see for you not wanting me to have the NAP?
(12:17:43 PM) me: i don't know
(12:17:48 PM) sunrise089: oh, so it isn't a 10-way NAP?
(12:18:06 PM) me: i think it would just be between exploit, shady, dsp, me (you), and DL/munro
(12:19:04 PM) sunrise089: well i think that is clearly subpar to a "global NAP until Imhotep is dead"
(12:19:30 PM) sunrise089: leaving 3 civs out makes it very suspicious...as in everyone goes and attacks imhotep except one person, and they attack me or broker or the lins
(12:19:52 PM) me: yeah could be
(12:19:53 PM) sunrise089: if the goal is to knock imho out "for the good of the game" people should commit to that entirely
(12:20:12 PM) me: well far be it from me to suggest that that isn't really exploit's goal
(12:22:43 PM) sunrise089: ok, well my official position is that the imhotep attack as currently formulated is dubious, and even revised provides an advantage to exploit
(12:23:14 PM) sunrise089: and my official position re: war with exploit is that it seems a bad idea to take the offensive
(12:23:20 PM) me: okay
(12:23:26 PM) me: so tech embargo?
(12:23:31 PM) sunrise089: if it can stick
(12:23:32 PM) me: and do you agree with physics for dsp?
(12:23:35 PM) sunrise089: i dont know the second best option
(12:23:45 PM) sunrise089: yes, physicsa for dsp is fine for me...i certainly dont need a scientist
(12:24:13 PM) me: meaning that we're going to attack exploit later on?
(12:24:23 PM) me: what advantages will we have then that we don't have now?
(12:24:26 PM) sunrise089: for me, the second best option is to try and accept exploit's peace option...re-reading it he was going to get 200 gold and then give 100 gold to the Lins, so maybe we would accept less gold...but I then have to contend with a Lin attack
(12:24:29 PM) me: we're still going to have the risk of shady / dsp
(12:24:56 PM) sunrise089: basically, tech moves so fast in this game, that I dont think the most powerful weapon is ever war
(12:25:34 PM) me: so then what?
(12:25:36 PM) sunrise089: i think teams should "attack" by self-sacrificing as much diplomatically as they would slaving and drafting and forgoing infrastructure in game
(12:25:49 PM) me: what do you mean
(12:25:54 PM) sunrise089: and just make someone self-research\
(12:26:14 PM) sunrise089: just saying that if we want to stop exploit from winning, and an embargo worked, it's never necessary to invade him
(12:26:26 PM) me: good point
(12:26:54 PM) sunrise089: conquest and domination and diplo victory arent happening, nor is curtural if there is an embargo, because tanks kill rifles pretty well and then raze Legendary cities
(12:27:05 PM) sunrise089: so the only option is space, and let him self-research all the space techs
(12:27:41 PM) sunrise089: so the real problem is that 1) embargoes do NOT stick, and 2) you're the next embargo target
(12:27:57 PM) me: right and right
(12:27:57 PM) me:
(12:28:14 PM) me: well one good thing is that we only really have 4 techers
(12:28:20 PM) sunrise089: now I'm diplomatically committed to trying to help you win, and that isn't changing, but i'd rather not leave my civ very vulnerable to do it...and I think going on the offensive does that
(12:28:21 PM) me: me, broker, exploit and dsp
(12:29:10 PM) sunrise089: remember when exploit proposed everyone else let you and he fight it out yourselves?
(12:29:22 PM) me: yes
(12:30:34 PM) sunrise089: nevermind, that plan doesnt really make sense
(12:30:51 PM) sunrise089: i guess what i'd like to see is some sort of neutrality agreement with shady+dsp+Byzantium
(12:31:00 PM) sunrise089: if there is a war, for them to remain neutral
(12:31:32 PM) me: what i meant by only 4 techers is that if we can get broker on board, then we at least have 2v2 techers
(12:31:39 PM) me: (i.e. right back to where we came from....)
(12:32:02 PM) sunrise089: yeah, but surely sunrise+regoarrarr+lins+broker will be outpaced, right?
(12:32:20 PM) sunrise089: due to 2 gold producers vs 5 if nothing else, no?
(12:32:24 PM) me: probably
(12:32:35 PM) me: we were getting outpaced before
(12:32:40 PM) me: which is what started this whole shakeup!
(12:34:25 PM) sunrise089: right - but as it has worked out, Sunrise089's first rule of pitboss games: "Alliances for the 'Greater Good' do not work out - civs always choose short term gain over long-term solidarity" is just being becoming closer to proven
(12:35:12 PM) me: coupled with regoarrarr's corollary (Alliteration!) - alliances that are proposed "for the greater good" are always proposed by the one power that stands to benefit the most
(12:35:52 PM) me: guess i'd be interested to hear what broker has to say about all this
(12:35:56 PM) me: gotta run to lunch
(12:35:57 PM) me: brb

Basically tossing around the idea of not warring with Exploit, but instead giving him a tech embargo. The problems with that, as sunrise pointed out, are #1, they never stick and #2, I'm the next to be embargoed

[regoarrarr]

Email to DLer

Thought I would drop you an introductory note. I am regoarrarr (Hatshepsut) of India. In real life I am a computer programmer and live in Cincinnati Ohio USA. Our nations have been across the world from each other and recently we have been allied and sharing tech (along with shadyforce, dsplaisted and Munro). However in the most recent times, Broker agreed to a ceasefire with you in exchange for your former city of Urumqi. Then obviously the most recent thing was your vassalizing of Munro (what happened there!?!)

So how do you know Exploit? How do you see your relationship with him working in this game? On the one hand, being friends could cause you to work together more. On the other hand, there's nothing like needling a friend by whupping him in-game and then trash-talking out-of-game :-D

Exploit and I have somewhat of an uneasy relationship, as he's probably told you by now (like cities named "Shaft Rego" or "Regosass"). Currently we are at peace and it's unclear whether or not hostilities will break out again any time soon.

Well I guess that's enough for an introduction - if you have any questions about this game or how we've gotten to where we are, feel free to ask and I'll be happy to give my take on things

Also chatted with shadyforce and he seemed amenable to an embargo vs. Exploit. He is going to talk to dsp and I will talk to Broker to see how those folks will take it, since obviously they'd need to be involved too.

[regoarrarr]

Also email to broker / lins / sunrise

Sunrise and I were chatting today and he was a little pessimistic about our chances for all out war and made the suggestion of just a tech embargo vs. Exploit. If we can leave him behind technologically, then we don't even really need to invade him.

The key would be to make sure that it stuck, of course. I talked with shadyforce and he seemed amenable and was going to talk to dsp. Broker - what do you think about this? I should be around this evening if you want to chat about it

[regoarrarr]

Reply back from DLer

Very nice to meet you. I work midnights 4 days a week on a NOC in Ottawa Ontario which generally alows me lots of time to bring my laptop into work to game. I am still trying to get a feel for everything as of yet and figuring out which way my civ was headed before I came into the game. The Munro thing came pretty fast, when I jumped into the game I had 20 minutes which didn't allow me a whole lot of time to get updated on game history. I noticed my only current war was against Munro in which I was pressing to capture or raze 3 of his cities.

I noticed that Broker was the one that had razed my capital and taken a few cities from me and do not trust him as of yet. Because of the Broker thing I had tossed out for Munro to become my vassal as to allow me time to figure out my next direction as to were I want to head.
As for Exploit, we are cousins and we have been playing civ against each other for years. The games we play generaly are a competition against each other for the most part as we both are very competitive against each other :-). I noticed that there is a general census in this game to pile up on him. I am still thinking about what the benefits are in doing so, is he the top threat? Has he been a nuisance in the game?

This is my first time playing civ this way and love the whole diplomacy thing that is going on. The Munro thing will allow me to pull back for a little bit, straighten out my messed up cities and try and get a feel on what peoples plans are.

[regoarrarr]

Email back to DLer

Good to hear back from you. So you're one of THOSE people that call me in the middle of the night when there's problems, huh? :-P

I guess it would be good to give you kind of a brief history of the game. Though with me, very few things are "brief" - you'll soon notice I like to talk (write) a lot. I'm not sure how much Exploit has told you but he may not know the whole story as he is a replacement player also (actually a replacement of a replacement).

Things started out and quickly broke up into 2 major alliances. Myself (India), the League of Lin (Dreylin / Kalin - Sumeria), sunrise (Spain), Broker (HRE), and Elkad (Carthage) vs. the other 6 - you (Byz), Exploit (Inca), shadyforce (Persia), dsplaisted (Mali), Munro (Rome) and Imhotep (Zulu). Actually as I said, Exploit is a replacement of a replacement, and in additoin to yourself, Rome and Carthage are now manned by different folks than they were originally, but just to keep things sooner.

So we teched like that for awhile, then the alliances shook up and when the dust settled it was myself, shadyforce, dsplaisted, your predecessors and sunrise vs. Exploit, Imho, Munro, Broker, the Lins and Elkad.

That alliance lasted for awhile until recently, when it kind of broke up into an everyone against Exploit alliance. The reasoning was that he was far and away the leader of the game (he has the most land, the most pop, and close to the biggest army). The thought was that if we allowed him to continue to keep pace, he would win no contest, since how would we ever stop him if he got to some of the defensive techs like fighters, railroad, machine guns, etc. Where that stands is kind of up in the air right now since we had a few dropouts, including your predecessors, and everything is still settling I think. You'll have seen Exploit's email suggesting that we all go after Imhotep.

As far as wars go, the Incan predecessors were fairly aggressive folks. They used their traits (Imp/Exp) to perfection, ruthlessly expanding, and then when confronted, they smacked the Lins around (you'll notice their city of "Lin Lost") as well as an early sniping of a Spanish worker. That is how they got to such an overwhelming early lead that has continued to this day.

shadyforce and dsplaisted have waged a few wars against Carthage, with the most recent one being fairly successful in taking 2-3 cities off of him. I believe they are currently at peace though I'm not 100% sure on that. Imhotep and shadyforce declared war on me a ways back but I was able to fight them to a stalemate.

I believe that your predecessor initially declared war on Broker, but Broker (with help from Munro) was definitely winning that war. He had razed the capital, and just recently had negotiated peace for the city of Urumqi. This was all supposed to be part of the anti-Exploit alliance. I guess Munro and you stayed at war when the Broker / Byz peace treaty was signed and you probably know more about that than I do.

So are you able to tech anything at this point? Due probably in part to the no brokering setup, the game has kind of devolved into groups of techers and financiers. You guys used to tech pretty good, with TGL and I think the Pyramids? and I assume a fairly specialist economy. You were first to Liberalism, but recently the war has hurt you I believe. Obviously you'll know more about your teching abilities than I will, but if you want to coordinate research, I'm happy to discuss that.

Well, like I said that was a "brief" recap of the game - if you have more questions about history, or where we might go from there, let me know.

I also wanted to note that this is the first turn since I went to Nationhood probably 20? or so turns ago that I have not been able to draft in my Globe Theater city of Whitewater. With a fish, crabs, lighthouse and 3 grass farms it has a +12 food surplus, which makes it good for drafting 12 out of 15 turns. But I started it up at size 8 or 9, so it's been good for more than that.

It probably will be the last time it won't be able to draft too, since Biology is due soon, which will give me 3 more food for those 3 food farms and be a perfect +15 food surplus.

[regoarrarr]

Maybe it's time for a little mini State of the Empire series of posts. It is a nice round number after all - T180!

First of all here's the pic of Whitewater with its not drafting self



I noted the food surplus. It's currently +12 and will move to +15 when Biology comes in.

And here's a little shot of the T180 demogs



I'm 4th in GNP - I'm guessing Exploit, Broker and DSP are ahead of me. 2nd in Prod and Food and Land (Exploit in all 3 I suspect). 1st in Soldiers. 3rd in pop (Exploit and I guess DSP?)

[regoarrarr]

And now here are the plans for the military railnet. Like all good urban planners, I've color coded my lines. It's 3 pics - first is the far west, 2nd is the south, and 3rd the northeast. In all cases, the "Union Station" SW of the capital city is marked in the red square.








Red Line - this is the main trunk of the military railnet, running from the current front in the west (Evendale) through the mainland and to the Heroic Epic city of Green Twp. Requires 18 tiles to be railroaded.

Orange Line - spur to the Globe Theater city of Whitewater - 3 tiles

Blue Line - the eastern trunk out to the front city of Arlington Heights - 9 tiles to be railroaded

Green Line - the northern trunk - 16 tiles

Yellow Line - the southeastern connector - 9 tiles.

The Red and orange are the most important - so 21 total tiles. That requires 42 worker turns, and I am aiming to have that done in 3 turns after railroad is complete, or T186 (RR due on T184, so 84, 85 and 86 railroading).

I have 17 workers currently, and my plan is for all of them to be pulled off to do the railroading for those 3 turns. I think this is the most important tasks. Next post will be me trying to detail out where they all go and coordination.

[regoarrarr]

Sorry if those railroad pictures are a bit too wide - didn't want to shrink or crop them as they have a lot of good stuff in there.

Okay so workers that I have. My workers are all named with different letters of the alphabet for easy cataloging.

West:
P/Q - 2N of Evendale, currently farming T181-82-83.
D/M - S-SW of Evendale, T181 move W, T182 chop, T183 road

South:
B - E-SE of Newtown, Chopping T180-81
C/N - E-SE of Green Township, Workshopping T180-81

East:
A - 3S1E of Norwood, Chopping T180-1
E - 2S of Arlington - no current assignments
F/L - E-NE of Harrison - just finished the mine.
G - 3S of Arlington - Chopping T180-1
J - 1N of Harrison - no current assignments

North:
H - SE of Mason, Farming T181-3
K - 2W of Montgomery, chop-mining T180-185
O - 2NW of Forest Park.


I also have 1 worker (Ingrid) on the island, so she's out of the picture. Olivia is probably also out as she is busy getting my National Park city up and running. So next post I'll try and give some ideas on what they should do.

[Yazilliclick]

Thanks for the update, love getting to see some actual screenshots.

Images aren't too big for me but you could always use the thumbnail code so they can be clicked on to see fullsize. I find imgur.com a better host for images myself and can choose to have a bigger thumbnail image.

[regoarrarr]

So there are 12 tiles on the red line between Evendale and Union Station, we'll call them RW1-RW12.

6 tiles on the red line south, RS1-RS6, going from north to south.

2-3 tiles on the orange line, O1 and O2, going from north to south. The pictures show 3 tiles, but I can actually do it in 2, since I have fast workers who can climb a hill and railroad on the same turn.

D/M can do RW1-3
P/Q can do RW4-6
H and J can hook up and do RW7-9
F/L can do RW10-12


A and B can hook up and do RS4-6
C/N can do RS1-3

I think I'll use the 4 of them to do the 2 turn Orange Line the turn after that (T187) which should be plenty of time. I can re-evaluate if I have to.

That leaves E, G, I, K, and O free to continue their tasks. Secondary tasks are the other railnets as well as putting railroads on the mines and lumbermills.