New FFH2 PBEM?

[Kragroth]

EITB has human takeover of Hyborem/Basium enabled as options so as to avoid the process that existed in FFH2 games of hailing T-hawk > getting him save > him having time to do the work > getting the game back going but assuming T-hawk is still willing, that process is still possible.

While the utter lack of balance is indeed the fun of FFH2, I think you'll find there's a relatively small audience for utterly imbalanced competitive multiplayer games here, this is probably the main reason that EITB is "standard" for our games, even though it is also still not balanced in the way we think of balance in terms of a base Civ game, for example. That said, there are a few folks who prefer that zany-FFH2 trail of tears, most notably Ellimist, but you'll probably have to wait a good long while for a game to fill up. If you don't mind waiting, though, I imagine you'll find 3-4 opponents eventually.

Could you explain in a little more detail the problem encountered with pbem with hyborem and basium? In simultaneous the issue came up was a desync and we had to save and restart the game.

[Mardoc]

PBEM has no mechanism to increase the number of players, IIRC. So Hyborem and Basium come in, but they're AI-controlled (or you can switch after a turn, but then your old civ is AI-controlled). If you're ok with having them be AI controlled, it works otherwise.

[Kragroth]

So basically you either lose a turn and you become he new civ while the old civ becomes ai

Or you just summon an ai

Eitb makes it so that no ai will be created?

[Qgqqqqq]

EitB makes it so that no AI is created, it just automatically opens a human slot. Finding human players isn't always an option though, and I'd say there's a bit more to EitB than that.

[Northstar1989]

While the utter lack of balance is indeed the fun of FFH2, I think you'll find there's a relatively small audience for utterly imbalanced competitive multiplayer games here, this is probably the main reason that EITB is "standard" for our games, even though it is also still not balanced in the way we think of balance in terms of a base Civ game, for example. That said, there are a few folks who prefer that zany-FFH2 trail of tears, most notably Ellimist, but you'll probably have to wait a good long while for a game to fill up. If you don't mind waiting, though, I imagine you'll find 3-4 opponents eventually.

You can add one more to the list of players who prefer the zany FFH2 "balance"


My biggest issue is that many of the changes in EiTB don't really respect canon- for instance Flauros going from Org/Fin --> Cre/Fin. There is absolutely no "in universe" hints that there is anything creative about Flauoros' personality- but his very organized method of dealing with the young peasant girl he rapes/feeds upon in the Background supports his having the "Organized" trait.

[Northstar1989]

OK, so we've got myself, Kragroth (would you be willing to play standard FFH2 instead of EiTB?), and Ellmist.

1-2 more players, and I think we'll be ready to give this a go. I still need somebody willing to administrate this though (make sure the map is balanced, for instance: obviously it wouldn't be fair for a player to do it...)

Still no decision on the map to use, speed, or even the FFH2 version (basic or EiTB)...

I would prefer Standard Speed (yeah, I know it's kind of slow for a multiplayer game- but it makes certain underachieving factions such as the Elves and Luchiurp a lot more viable), Erebus or Erebus Continents, and basic FFH2...


By the way, may I ask, *why* do players think EiTB is more balanced than basic FFH2? I can think of a few things that would lead to that impression, but I want to hear others' take on it...


Regards,
Northstar

[Kragroth]

My votes

1. Vanilla ffh2 is fine with the latest unofficial patch p
2. Erebus is fine. Erebus continents is not fine. Erebus is slow enough as it is without having to sail across the ocean and pbem is slow on top of that
3. It's gotta be quick speed. You must realize that at best you get 1 turn per day. A game can literally stretch into a year with certain settings and a priority must be made on creating a finishable game that won't drag.

We'll let the unbalanced settings stay that's fine. Add in raging barbs double animals and double events and acheron and orthus to your heart's content

[Bobchillingworth]

By the way, may I ask, *why* do players think EiTB is more balanced than basic FFH2? I can think of a few things that would lead to that impression, but I want to hear others' take on it...

A complete answer would be far too long for this thread; suffice to say, after years of testing and the input over over a dozen FFH MP veterans, we're fairly certain that EitB gives a much more level playing field than base FFH. Not to say the Modmod is perfect, it's not meant to replace FFH so much as provide a different experience, where luck isn't quite as large a factor and all of the leaders are viable.



As for this PBEM, I'm not interested in joining, but I could serve as mapmaker depending on what you're looking for.

[Northstar1989]

As for this PBEM, I'm not interested in joining, but I could serve as mapmaker depending on what you're looking for.

That would be lovely. I'm hoping to find a mapmaker who can start with a randomly-generated map and start positions, and balance them a bit by adding bonus resources, goody huts, lairs, and maybe a forest tile here or there to some of the weaker start positions. I'm NOT interested in any drastic altering of the terrain- such as turning a Plains-heavy start position to Grassland, or flatlands to hills. I rather enjoy the varied look of Erebus, even if it is unbalanced...


Btw, yeah, I guess that's a good point about the game speed. But it gives SERIOUS disadvantage to the Elves (who can perform an early archer or recon rush on the slower gamespeeds, especially against opponents with weird tech paths- whereas on Quick, players can start churning out Champions before the Elven armies march the distance to reach their empires- especially given that it takes a while to build an Archery Range, leaving only a very narrow time-window for the rush) and the Luchiurp (who have fewer turns to wander about with Barnaxus and level him up before he becomes in serious danger of getting raped by a later-game unit...)

So, since we're going to play on "Quick" speed, if any player ends up with one of these empires, I would ask that they perhaps end up with a little more generosity on the side of resources or goody huts- to make up for their nerfed civ advantages on faster speeds...


It would also be nice if the mapmaker ensured at least a couple sources of Mithril ended up on the map- though if the game makes it to that point, a winner will probably be decided anyways. For lore and balance reasons, I would suggest giving a higher weight to placing Mithril somewhere in the general proximity of the Dwarves (though obviously you can't guarantee that, or it would kind of ruin the surprise and unbalance the game...) who tend to be fairly weak on Multiplayer, and are heavily reliant on getting a hilly start to have much of a fighting chance at all... Alternatively, to make it less predictable, Blasting Powder has a Dwarven association in FFH2 lore. If they survive long enough to exploit either, they're probably either already doomed or sure to win anyways...


What else, what else... Oh yeah- I forget if the mapmaker is able to assign players specific starting positions, but if they are, it might be nice to spread the players around a little bit so the game won't be decided by early rushes quite so much (like literally every other PBEM seems to have been, with only a very few exceptions... This is also why the nerf of the Elven archer/ranger rush on higher speeds is so absolutely *devastating* in multiplayer...)


Regards,
Northstar

[Qgqqqqq]

so the game won't be decided by early rushes quite so much (like literally every other PBEM seems to have been, with only a very few exceptions... This is also why the nerf of the Elven archer/ranger rush on higher speeds is so absolutely *devastating* in multiplayer...)

On this site? I think you overestimate elven rushes in competitive MP.

More generally, I'm not greatly inclined to weigh in here, but I'd like to mention that unless there are very specific instructions, mapmakers are in a very awkward position if asked to favor one civ over another - that can very easily lead to resentment and blame of relative positions on the map/mapmaker.