[SPOILERS] Cheater Hater hates bad advice. BGN gives only bad advice.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

What will you get out of burning it? What is your goal?

Satisfaction. That resettling is certifiably crazy.

Sometimes it's worth losing just to prove a point. If I was the primary turnplayer and someone pulled that move on me I would have to decide immediately whether it was more fun to me to try to win or to educate the dumb sod that decided to build his house overhanging my property line. It's not like my neighbor's tree just drops limbs into my yard. That thing is so close that his septic drains out in a spray directly onto my kitchen window.

Burn the fucking thing. Then burn the next one. Then salt the whole field.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

I mean, he has to know it is bad right? No one is so stupid that they would not see that as an aggressive move. I'm not sure what kind of advice he is getting, but I question whether it is any good.

The only charitable reason that I can think of is that he did not realize that we could build a fort to hook up the fish so he wanted to build a work boat for us before we raze the city. I think probably this is too generous.

Plako, maybe you can provide another perspective?

[Cheater Hater]

Well, that certainly got a reaction
I'm glad someone else got riled up at that settlement, though having a third opinion (to go along with Mr. "salt the earth" here ) certainly would help this situation.

Moving now to the logical part of the analysis, if everything remains equal, I'll gain the same basic stuff I got burning Sabata 1: ~25-30 gold and my main competitor (other than Elum/mackoti; I don't know much about them at the moment other than that they have Stonehenge, which inflates their scoreboard position a bit) loses a couple units and a city, and this only costs me an Axe or two, along with the ten turns of peace afterwards. Obviously I don't know if everything will remain the same (though our powers will be about equal, johns appears to have a slight research lead--though that lead on researching Math may just be a symptom of not taking the religious diversions), and if johns refuses to take peace, I could be in trouble. I also don't have the element of surprise on my side this time, since the road exists now--he still shouldn't be able to see into Vienna though. Still, johns appears to still want peace, at least in direct relations (he didn't even kill my Warrior I deliberately sacrificed to get intel!)--the problem is the direct actions are directly in conflict with his settlement plans, which probably won't make any sense until the game ends and I can read the spoiler/lurker threads (and maybe not even then ).

One thing I am worried about is that my thoughts on this are trending towards "I won't lose anything" more than "I'll gain something big". This is exactly the same reason I did my early B4ndit conquest in PBEM58, and it did end up costing me a lot. Of course, I made a lot of errors in the ten turns of peace there, and hopefully I'll do better here

[Cheater Hater]

Wow, this turn's going quick--I managed to get the turn played before I left, pictures are here--johns is actually defending his cities a bit (added an axe in Sabata2, has 2 Axes+1 Chariot around his new western city), so we might have to rethink the "salt the earth" strategy a bit--we have 5 turns to do so, and worst case, I'm pretty sure johns won't be able to make any gains if he attacks us. I guess I'll have to find something else to do as the long road to Currency begins :/

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

Johns can't actually want peace. If he did, he would have resettled more sensibly, not as he did. Some people are slow learners and need repetition for a lesson to sink in. Maybe he's one of these types?

You are losing progress on the rest of the field when you have to build more units, there is no question about it. But you can hardly do otherwise when your neighbor builds up a big army and then plants a city like that. This is almost like he's creating a situation where he can use his impis somehow rather than playing sensibly and trying to get away with building less military and more economy. If he was going to do this it should have been against an opponent who isn't IMP and who accordingly doesn't have spare hammers laying around to match his build up. I just don't get this move. It's a real head scratcher.

Continue on the path to Currency, then Construction. If you see an opportunity where his garrison is weak, crush it.

[Cheater Hater]

Johns can't actually want peace. If he did, he would have resettled more sensibly, not as he did. Some people are slow learners and need repetition for a lesson to sink in. Maybe he's one of these types?

You are losing progress on the rest of the field when you have to build more units, there is no question about it. But you can hardly do otherwise when your neighbor builds up a big army and then plants a city like that. This is almost like he's creating a situation where he can use his impis somehow rather than playing sensibly and trying to get away with building less military and more economy. If he was going to do this it should have been against an opponent who isn't IMP and who accordingly doesn't have spare hammers laying around to match his build up. I just don't get this move. It's a real head scratcher.

Continue on the path to Currency, then Construction. If you see an opportunity where his garrison is weak, crush it.

In addition to that, what else can I be building at this point? All I can really build are Libraries, Barracks, some Temples, Settlers, Workers, and military units. Libraries are good, but not everywhere (and I've already built a bunch), same with Barracks, you've advised me not to build that many Temples, Settlers will crash my economy, and Workers aren't needed. What else am I supposed to build, especially until I get Currency and can transfer excess hammers into gold directly?

How necessary is early Construction? Needing Cats to make progress generally means a bloody war, right? Iisn't that something I should be trying to avoid? Obviously I can watch for a weak garrison, but if johns is going to waste military defending all his aggressively planted cities, isn't a decent defense of my own cities enough?

Any thoughts on where the new Settler (after Moai) should go? Should I push into some of johns's territory by settling in the west, or make a (possibly) better city in the east?

[Cheater Hater]

Not that much new on T90 or T91--johns is adding another Axe to his crazy city (making the total garrison 3 Axes 1 Spear), though the other cities aren't quite as well-protected (notably I got visibility on the SE city and it only has an Impi+Axe in the area, though it is on a hill). I don't think that I'll be able to attack on T94 at this point (when the peace treaty runs out), though I'm certain johns isn't going to make any progress attacking me either. There's still the matter of the power lead, but I have a bunch of units in production now to hopefully counteract that (and hopefully not delay Currency too much--my cottages continue to grow at least ).

[Cheater Hater]

T92 and T93 are still relatively boring, but there's a couple things coming out of the latter, so I'll do a picture dump at least:




I founded Ulm last turn, and I'll hook up the furs shortly. I also have a bunch of military units completing in anticipation of the peace treaty with johns ending next turn. There is interesting stuff going on in the northeast though:


We may be in a bit of a settler race here--I can settle spot 1 next turn, and Whosit's settler probably can't settle a spot which blocks it off. I can also defend with a decent garrison (Axe+Spear+Warrior), though it does weaken Carib's defenses somewhat (though it can whip the Spear if necessary, and Axe+Spear is fine). The question is whether I want to settle that spot? My choices are settle that spot, settle spot 2, or wait for my economy to get better first. I think 2 is the better spot, but settling 1 seems fine (assuming Whosit doesn't get too aggressive). Of course, the annoying thing here is that I have to wait until Whosit plays so I don't double-move him--he's been playing at a reasonable pace recently at least



Can johns stop building units please? Elum/mackoti are going to get to a big lead if we keep having to fight! My GNP is also good--I'm not starting my Currency research for at least a couple more turns (to let the Nuremburg Library complete, and maybe the Augsburg one as well), and that should me get my GNP lead back.

[Cheater Hater]

Sorry for the recent radio silence everyone--nothing's really happening, and it's been hard to generate enough motivation to make a full report. T94 and T95 pictures are linked, but T96 is getting a full report:
T96 Report:




Things are much better happiness-wise now that I've hooked up the furs--only Vienna is unhappy, and it has two rounds of whip anger remaining (one of which expires in three turns). Still, my happiness problems aren't completely solved yet--Aachen and Prague are at the happy cap, and have to choose between not working all my food or growing into unhappiness. There's a lot of micro going on, especially in the NE--lots of maneuvering happening to make Carib and Nuremburg complete their builds this turn, and the bonus lets Florence borrow the sheep for a turn.

One thing that may seem odd is that Currency actually completes in a non-infinite time now, even though I'm at 0% research. The answer is simple--I'm running four scientists (2 at Vienna, 1 at Rillanon, 1 at Prague)! This gives me a good overall commerce boost without running into the happy cap, and gives me a head start on great person production as well. It also should give Currency a meaningful speed boost as well--Currency was 4 turns at 100% before I started running scientists (thanks to Libraries completing and both Grimace and Whosit getting Currency), and my hope is that with the two turns of scientist science along with the new libraries (and maybe more known-tech bonus) can let Currency finish in 3 turns (or at least 3 turns of 100% plus a turn of near-break-even, since I only have 3 turns of 100% ).



Things are good here--remember, the slider is still on 0% research! My solider ranking is also ready to match johns's again--next turn I complete 1 Axe and 2 Spears, then 2 Axes the turn after that. Of course, the problem is that I still don't see a good target for all of my units--I can't just decide to attack Whosit or something, since I need the standing army to deter johns (who still hates me most likely), and I can't attack johns since he has so many units (he put another Axe in Sabata 2, meaning there's six units total in there). I guess the plan is just to research Currency, fill in a couple more cities, and hope someone else makes the first move and/or shows a weakness? Part of that plan has to come from what tech I go for next after Currency (even if it won't come for a bit)--BGN mentioned Construction earlier as the most direct military tech (during his "salt the earth" phase), and CoL is the best economic tech by far. I also think Sailing should come soon possibly; Lighthouses could help some of my cities have a useful food output, a Galley could help support city 6 (and possibly aid an amphibious attack on johns later), and I have no idea when I should start Moai in Ulm. Any thoughts BGN?

Since this is my first post in a while, I'll do a graph dump for fun--I've been taking graphs for every turn, they just normally are exiled to the folders

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

The good news is that so many units now means you should be able to not have to build so many as soon as Currency arrives. How many luxuries do you have that will be boosted by the market? Really you'll only want to invest in a market in the capital at this point because it is so expensive. I think CoL is a good target. You're ORG, so you get a discount on building CH, which you'll want lots of. This will make all those libraries that you've built more effective. You seem to have enough units to deter Johns and you always have the whip if you need to reinforce quickly, so maybe draw down the number of troops you're building? This is a feel thing. Only do this if you think your opponent is either likely to do the same or if you think you can win a defensive war with fewer units. Catapults will certainly help with this. You are likely to out tech Johns in the short term, especially if you go CoL and get your CHs online. You have a hammer advantage over him so that can be extra GNP through wealth builds too. You can put him in a position where he can only get ahead of you by attacking and you would then have the defender's natural advantage in combat. But you don't want to be fighting defensive wars because you typically don't gain much, so you can deter him hopefully with the forces you already have.

Have you identified which city/cities are your military pump(s)? Have you identified commerce specialists? What about the National Epic city? As for Moai, you want it built as soon as it reasonably can be built in order to make that city effective. You have bronze/pigs/GH mine available there so you can use natural production and whips. I think I'd start as soon as the granary is finished since you don't have forges available. I'd have to look around in game to be certain.

Are there any wonders you are interested in picking up? Let's start thinking not just in terms of the next 2-3 turns but the next 10, 25, and 50 turns. Set some goals for yourself and then start making plans to achieve those goals.