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RBP3 - [SPOILERS] - Team DIM (Mehmed of HRE)

Greetings and salutations!


A very warm welcome to the official spoiler thread of Team DIM, steering Mehmed of the Holy Roman Empire to probable victory!
Team DIM is made up of the Terrific Triumvirate - Dazedroyalty, Ilios and Meatbalz.
Our lack of experience in MP Civ will be more than amply made up with our micromanagerial zeal, bismarckian diplomacy and sharp reflexes.


And to savour the irony of our Civ/Leader pick, guess which army is laying siege to this city smoke


[Image: siege.png]
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Whoa what an intro. Team DIM bow

In more realistic news, we're planning on setting a new RB record for uses of smoke. Outlook: favourable

To assist us and our lurkers as we track our pursuit of this historic milestone, team DIM would like to present the Weed-o-Matic counter ™ which will be updated as the game progresses.

--------------------------------

Updated Weed-o-Matic statistics

smoke used to describe our own play: 6
smoke used to describe play of others: 0
smoke used by lurkers to describe DIM's game: 2

Total uses of smoke 41


Current Western Dotmap agreed with Ottomans
http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showpost....tcount=341

Rough Diplo Outline
http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showpost....tcount=371

Current Micro
http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showpost....tcount=445
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So here's a quick overview

Mehmed of HRE

Traits: EXP/ORG
- 25% faster production on workers
- Half-priced Granary
- Half-priced Courthouse
- Half-priced Lighthouse
- Half-priced Harbour
- Half-priced Factory
- + 2 health per city
- Civic upkeep reduced 50%

UB: Rathaus
- Courthouse replacement that is 2x as effective as a regular Courthouse
- Cost: 60 hammers

UU: Landsknecht
- Pikeman replacement
- Requires Iron + Engineering
- 100% bonus against Melee + Mounted Units
- 6 strength
- Cost: 60 hammers


EXP/ORG is a pairing of traits that has some degree of synergy.

The EXP trait allows better development of surrounding land thanks to faster worker production, and faster growth at the start thanks to the cheap granaries.
ORG gives you cheap buildings to allow better-rounded cities, and lower costs so you can support more cities.
Combining the two gives you larger, better-developed cities that cost less to maintain (which in itself allows more cities), and an additional bonus on the cost side of the equation to allow even more cities to be built.

Additionally we were able to pair Mehmed with a very strong UB that receives a discount thanks to one of our traits. The Rathaus is twice as effective as a Courthouse - no small bonus at Emperor - it comes into play early and at the critical time when maintenance costs start becoming a serious headwind to expansion.

The permanent reduction in costs is unmatched and will be a constant advantage for our team throughout the game (State Property will lessen it but not eliminate it altogether).






Right off the bat when we were considering the traits we wanted, FIN, EXP, and CRE stood out, with ORG a close fourth. In fact if you add up the traits chosen, these 4 turned out to be the most popular:

FIN 7
EXP 6
CRE 5
ORG 4
PHI 4
IND 2
AGG 2
CHA 2
SPI 1
IMP 1
PRO 0

So it was somewhat surprising that when it came our turn to pick, 2 of the 6 leaders that combine 2 of those traits were still available. In the end, we decided that the combination of EXP+ORG offset the lack of the FIN trait (which is pretty indisputably the strongest one out there) and went with Mehmed.

If we were surprised Mehmed was still available with the 13th pick, we were even more surprised that HRE was up for grabs, particularly with 2 teams behind us picking ORG leaders. In the end we were able to grab HRE after both Zara + Napoleon passed. HRE was the 8th civ picked; we initially had it ranked somewhere in our second tier behind Inca, Ottomans, and India, but moved it up even higher after it was confirmed we'd have an Organised leader.



We took our 5th leader choice and 4th civ while picking 13th. So while losing out on Inca and the strongest 3 FIN leaders was disappointing all in all you could definitely say we were pleased with our picks. But it wasn't all good news. We identified 4 key weaknesses we'd have to address, from easiest to hardest to fix:

1) we start with a scout
2) our starting techs blow
3) we are not financial
4) we are not creative


1) and 2) go hand-in-hand, as does the solution. Going with a warrior first will allow us time to research crucial worker techs. We'll be going warrior first unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise, e.g. a game tile in the BFC (and even then this will be up for debate)

3) there is nothing we can do about the gold bonus FIN civs get - but you don't get to spend gross gold, you spend net of costs and this is where ORG+rathaus really gives us an advantage.

No plan survives contact with the enemy but at the moment it looks like after knocking out Ag, Mining, BW, AH, and Pottery (and maybe Fishing, depending on terrain), we will beeline CoL. Getting Rathauses into play asap is at the forefront of our thoughts, you can be sure of that lol

How we get there is of course subject to a great amount of discussion, particularly in light of

4) i'm not quite as pessimistic about the amount of room we'll have to expand into as the civs who chose resourceless UUs but it's a fact that having a CRE civ next door will put us on the back foot in terms of settling plans. Oracling CoL would be a massive advantage and solve 3) and 4) in one fell swoop, but there's the small matter of 16 other civs out there who are no doubt thinking along the same lines.

To start with there are 2 IND civs out there, and while Mali would probably target MC, India will not.

Added to that is the fact our early research potential is not up to the FIN civs' standards in the event we decide researching CoL from scratch is the better option.

And finally there is SPI/PHI Egypt who is a threat to bulb it.

What we've decided is that Oracle is only something we'll be pursuing if Marble is available, but even then Masonry would be required. Bottom line is don't expect us to land that wonder - or Stonehenge for that matter. I expect at least one team to attempt the 'Henge before their first settler, and we neither CAN compete nor WANT to compete with that.

In the end, while the lack of CRE is the hardest problem to solve (obviously it's not the most important, lacking FIN is), it might even be a non-issue.

a) we may not start right next to a CRE civ; the odds are pretty low with 5 civs in 16 neighbours, but not out of the question
b) i mentioned earlier i'm not as pessimistic as some others about the amount of land we'll have [cue me eating my words when a warrior waltzes into our capital on turn 5 smoke].
I counted out the tiles and the map for RBP1 was approx 85 * 48, with 35% water for ~2600 land tiles. With 11 teams, that’s 240 tiles each, or ~12 cities. If we were to use a similar-sized map, with 17 teams (definitely fits the “less land” some people asked for), available land area per team would be about 156 tiles – 7.5 cities, or a bit smaller than a 13 x 13 square.
c) we may be able to come to reasonable settling agreements with our neighbours - one small advantage of starting with a scout is that we'll have a good idea of the lay of the land + can make informed decisions.
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It's good to have our own forum! jive Less emails now!

meatbalz Wrote:c) we may be able to come to reasonable settling agreements with our neighbours - one small advantage of starting with a scout is that we'll have a good idea of the lay of the land + can make informed decisions.

QFT. Scout starts do stink compared to the benefits of the warrior but we plan to make full use of the scout in every way possible. Baring a horrible encounter with a bear, I plan to be sure we do not end up like the Byzantine or Koreans of PB2, who barely had any map explored. Information is power!
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Initial thoughts on the opposition:


Huayna Capac / Mali

Traits FIN/IND (TW, mining)
UB Mint
UU Skirmisher

Great mesh of traits + UB; these guys will be spamming cottages early (mali starts with TW so pottery is only 1 tech away) + are unlikely to settle too aggressively, knowing that in the long term their rsch capability is unmatched. I’d say the odds are very good this will be the first team to have a town. If they start close to water, these guys are a strong bet to make a play for the GLighthouse and chop it out double-quick for a further rsch boost; GLib should be foremost in their thinking as well. Having said that, their ability to get settlers/workers out will lag the others given lack of EXP/IMP; depending on how cramped the map turns out to be, they may well see themselves forced to stake out disputed locations, backed by their strong UU. Which could lead to conflict. The team looks strong, the picks are solid + I expect them to be one of the leaders throughout the game. If they do manage to grab GL and/or GLib, we need to organise a response immediately or we might not be able to peg them back.

Threat: 9/10




Napoleon / Aztec

Traits ORG/CHA (Hunt, Myst)
UB Sacrificial Altar
UU Jaguar

Step 1: chop out Stonehenge
Step 2: worry about the rest later
Ruff + the Maya must be thinking along the same lines, i.e. with 17 teams strategic resources will be contested + it’s best to rely on a resourceless UU. I think this is the team likeliest to try for Stonehenge before a Settler. +2 happiness in each city (if they do land Stonehenge) and half penalty for whipping means these guys will be producing EVERYTHING with the whip once CoL is researched. The Jaguar is a very weak UU, 12.5% cheaper than a sword but 17% weaker. I’d rather take my chances on expanding rapidly enough to claim strategic resources. I think the sacrificial altar is not that bad a choice actually given the power of slavery early on, but you need lots of food to get the full benefit. Not really sure of what to make of this team, but unless they play a particularly strong start or do a good job diplomatically, I don’t think they’ll be among the frontrunners based on their traits, UU, and UB.

Threat: 6/10



Ragnar / Maya

Traits FIN/AGG (Myst, Min)
UB Ball court
UU Holkan

Very strange combination; I would guess based on the Maya pick their main concern is riding out the early game, and aggressive spears are the way to do it, but this team must figure iron and copper will be contested otherwise there’s no reason to go for a resourceless UU. The ball court is nice enough, giving an extra 2 happy faces, but half-priced colosseums come with CRE, not FIN/AGG, so they’ll need to pay full price for a building that is of questionable usefulness given Hereditary Rule is available at the same time, and is relatively expensive. When the turn came around to them Zulu were still available along with 7 other civs with melee/gunpowder UUs, including what to me look like better choices France, Greece, and Sumeria. It’s the second team that seems to have gone out of their way to secure a resourceless UU; with rapid EXP and the ability to spam more cities thanks to Rathaus/ORG, we’ll hopefully be able to secure enough land to make this a non-issue. Nevertheless, FIN/AGG can work very well if used properly so this team bears watching.

Threat: 7/10



Hannibal / Byzantium

Traits FIN/CHA (TW, Myst)
UB Hippodrome
UU Cataphract

Highly promoted cataphracts are not something I want to deal with. There’s a decent chance he’ll be racing Nap/Aztec to Stonehenge so an early sneak attack would be my preferred approach if we start next to this team. I really like the pairing of CHA with Cataphracts in theory, but these guys will be a MASSIVE target for whoever starts next to them. When our team was going through the initial civ shortlist Byz was right at the top of the second tier but we expressly decided not to pick them. All 3 of us in DIM are relatively unknown here at RB; picking Byz would have gotten people’s attention all right, just not in the way we want. We want to fly under the radar as long as possible. Best-case is they start near Rome + their diplomacy goes badly. Worst-case is they start near Rome + their diplomacy goes well.

Threat: 10/10 as a neighbour, 7/10 to win



Ghandi / Egypt

Traits PHI/SPI (Ag, TW)
UB Obelisk
UU War Chariot

Voted “most likely to run a monk economy”. Given the traits and the player, there’s a chance Krill will try to demonstrate how to run a monk economy by snapping up the religions beyond Meditation/Poly. The Obelisk comes into play straight away + with the PHI trait he can really churn them out if he gets a high food surplus. 2 priests + 100% = 9 turns for the first GP, 13 turns for the second, 17 for the third. If he were really serious about running the table on religions it would be self-rsch mono, bulb theology + CoL. Worker first, grow to size 4 then run 2 priests for 22 turns. In the mid-game as you get further down the bulb list, you get techs like Education/Lib. The War Chariot throws an additional layer in there as it leaves the potential for early aggression. Likely to make early+heavy use of caste system, swapping in and out as required.

The one downside to PHI is it works best with lots of food. If Krill gets a start like the one he had in RBP1 with PHI/SPI, even with all his skill he’ll be hard pressed to win. On the other hand w/ a high food start he can really leverage his traits. He seems a very creative player to me and I think he’s going to show us a trick or two.

Threat: 8/10, heavily reliant on the terrain though

Great Prophet:
Meditation
Polytheism
Priesthood
Monotheism
Theology
Divine Right
Mysticism
Masonry
Code of Laws
Civil Service
Monarchy
Literature
Music
Writing
Philosophy
Printing Press
Drama
Aesthetics
Alphabet
Paper
Education
Liberalism
Calendar
Animal Husbandry
Construction
Future Tech



Kublai / Rome

Traits AGG/CRE (Fish, Min)
UB Forum
UU Praetorian

If we end up next to them, we choke first and ask questions later. No other way around it. Neither AGG nor CRE are suited to the mid/late game when economic power comes to the fore so they’ll need to move early.

Threat: 10/10 as a neighbour, 3/10 to win the game
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Meatbalz, this is a great initial analysis. I completely concur on the priority of choking potential military powerhouses early. The only thought I have that could be added to the analyses is if we could include the players on each team since what we know obout the players makes a difference too. Some teams are more of a threat simply because we know the players are quality. Some are a question mark since we don't know anything about the players. There may be one or two that we can take down a threat level depending on the player. I'll try to go through the players and assess threats based on what we know about them when I get off work today.
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Update: The game is up! I will be checking it out in 2 hours when I get off work. If no one has posted a screenshot before then, I'll put it up with my thoughts on the lay of the land.
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dazedroyalty Wrote:Update: The game is up! I will be checking it out in 2 hours when I get off work. If no one has posted a screenshot before then, I'll put it up with my thoughts on the lay of the land.

awesome. i'll be able to have a look early tomorrow (7:30GMT or so), if you don't want to wait that long go for it + make the moves. otherwise let us know what you want to do + ilios will make the moves tomorrow morning
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It seems like everyone wants to get the game moving quickly but with so many teams and the time zone differences I doubt we'll be able to move at the 3 turns/day speed someone else mentioned from PB1. If we're the only ones who haven't played and everyone is waiting, I'd only play if it was very clear that we should settle in spot. I think teh whole team will need to discuss settling before we do it. Once that happens, we can move more quickly as we just scout.
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agreed. had a look at civstats, the game's been up an hour and a half and 11 teams have logged in lol

edited to add: we'll be playing shuffle map script, low sea level acording to civstats. i'll see if i can dig anything up on the script, frustratingly there's nothing on it in sirian's map guide banghead
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