(February 28th, 2015, 14:08)zitro1987 Wrote: I agree, spell system is the most difficult part of modding in every way (coding, balance, fun) and I'd try not to change the spell system too much - it's the touchiest of subjects, more so than units, city mechanics, etc.
I could start a separate thread for that on the mod subforum.
I can imagine a rather conservative spell system mod, mostly using strength of effect, area of affection, cost and upkeep and spell level modification. But there are a few border cases, broken or useless spells, that will be really tough to improve under those condition, as we all know. The effort needs to get creative there, which for me does not mean "stuffing the place with more direct damage spells".
Re: separate thread. I would really prefer to move the whole Overhaul mod into the old "Ziky" forum, rename it properly, move this thread and create a spell one there. Overhaul is different, but it bears certain resemblance to the old ideas, so I see it as an upgrade and a successor. In every case, the old Ziky is dead and the continuing existence of its subforum is useless and shameful. Since you have mod powers, you could do that (?). Don't know if you wish so. I do.
(February 28th, 2015, 14:41)Anthony Wrote: Where is the 200 damage for crack's call encoded?
Interesting, I never realised that. Chance is 1/4 and the damage for autodeath was set to 200. AA67F FE C8 => .....
For not making Cracks call a permadeath for heroes, it's FE C8 => FA C8.
The 2nd post of the thread will have series of images
Example: the civilization4-style difficulty of conquering cities, especially the capital
The capital has 6 units defending it, only one being a tier-4 military unit. I have 5 mediocre tier-3 military units aided by mithril weapons (barbarian cavalry), 2 tier-2 summoning units (not too useful given 'high men' racial bonus is 'large shield' of +4 bonus), and 2 engineers to sneak in and destroy walls. Combat-wise, i have a slight disadvantage if we were fighting outside a city. However, I have a disadvantage with combat spells, the +3 to +5 wall bonus, and the relatively weak but increasingly bothersome lightning bolts that shoot from the fortress each turn. In the end, I get slaughtered.
The intimidating tier-4 unit - the paladin. While they do no longer have armor piercing and magic immunity bonuses, they have lots of support abilities and kick serious ass in combat with first strike.
I successfully prepare my attack from both corners of the city thanks to my engineers. However, my enemy cast 'prayer', leading to a cumulative +3 resistance to all units (with priest resist to all and holy bonus), rendering them nearly immune to my curses. Additionally, the +1 to defend granted by prayer makes it harder for me to deal good damage. I couldn't kill either priest (which are extremely hardy support units in this mod) and they start healing themselves, paladin helping out. My units are noticeably damaged and one shadow demon was eventually killed by lightning bolts and priests.
(February 28th, 2015, 14:41)Anthony Wrote: Where is the 200 damage for crack's call encoded?
Interesting, I never realised that. Chance is 1/4 and the damage for autodeath was set to 200. AA67F FE C8 => .....
For not making Cracks call a permadeath for heroes, it's FE C8 => FA C8.
FE to FA is changing the damage type from irreversible to normal? C8 is 200.
@Zitro
Nice battle and it's good to see the new "prayer" being a decisive factor! We need more tight fights with spells being the deciding force, a bit like in HoMM 3.
Re: Cracks call.
I think the original idea was to have a spell that could break the wall (like common spell Disrupt), but with an extra effect (potential damage). It all went upside down and the spell became important because of the damage.
From this point of view, the best repairing would actually be going back to the original idea.
- let Cracks call target walls only
- let it have 100% success in breaking the wall
- in 25% (I would prefer 50% or evt. even 100%) the wall cracks down on top of the unit standing there, doing 10 or 5 or 3 autodamage.
As consequence, the spell will remain very strong, but limited in use to city sieges. Though in these battles, like in the one mentioned above by Zitro, it can be a decisive factor. And the spell fits the general idea of Nature realm as well: you exert magic power by influencing the surrounding objects.
(February 28th, 2015, 08:15)zitro1987 Wrote: to bring back 'black sleep' and 'possession', replacing my uncommon and very rare damage spell replacements.
Interesting ideas, I like them both. Putting possession in very rare seems going a bit over the top, rare bracket would do a slightly better job. Otherwise, it puts Possession out of middle game (see Creature Binding that is more powerful and very rare). And Death realm has got Animate dead as a powerful "get me a unit" spell. And last, the AI uses Possession as a "risky battle-changer spell", rather than an omnipotent tool.
(March 2nd, 2015, 04:49)kyrub Wrote: @Zitro
Nice battle and it's good to see the new "prayer" being a decisive factor! We need more tight fights with spells being the deciding force, a bit like in HoMM 3.
Re: Cracks call.
I think the original idea was to have a spell that could break the wall (like common spell Disrupt), but with an extra effect (potential damage). It all went upside down and the spell became important because of the damage.
From this point of view, the best repairing would actually be going back to the original idea.
- let Cracks call target walls only
- let it have 100% success in breaking the wall
- in 25% (I would prefer 50% or evt. even 100%) the wall cracks down on top of the unit standing there, doing 10 or 5 or 3 autodamage.
As consequence, the spell will remain very strong, but limited in use to city sieges. Though in these battles, like in the one mentioned above by Zitro, it can be a decisive factor. And the spell fits the general idea of Nature realm as well: you exert magic power by influencing the surrounding objects.
(February 28th, 2015, 08:15)zitro1987 Wrote: to bring back 'black sleep' and 'possession', replacing my uncommon and very rare damage spell replacements.
Interesting ideas, I like them both. Putting possession in very rare seems going a bit over the top, rare bracket would do a slightly better job. Otherwise, it puts Possession out of middle game (see Creature Binding that is more powerful and very rare). And Death realm has got Animate dead as a powerful "get me a unit" spell. And last, the AI uses Possession as a "risky battle-changer spell", rather than an omnipotent tool.
That would be a good use of 'crack's call'. The 'prayer' in my mod does not have the '+1 to hit' and the to-defend is fixed in insecticide, therefore here. Nevertheless, given higher armor in my mod, it can still make a difference, especially on top of wall bonuses of +3 to +5.
I made a bad mistake in last Adresses doc (number 3).
Re: Tranquility
B2B4D B8 01 00 BA 48 E8 => 90 0B C0 BA 24 F4
should be instead
=> 90 33 C0 BA 24 F4
Zitro, there are many small things and ideas I find neat and pretty well done in your Overhaul mod. As always, you are precise and you look after details.
But there are also a lot of questions and conceptions I find very strange. And I truly don't understand the reasons behind the choices.
So, just a few honest questions. Maybe you can explain things, or see them from another angle.
1. Why do all common summons cost 140 mana?
I searched the documentation but I found no answer. It looks like a bad campaign for equality, having balance is fine, but any balance is elegant only when its features are not totally identic. Summons could cost 100-150 mana, why not? For comparison, imagine all common units have melee attack of 10; it could work as long as everything else was different, but why we should strip units of their individuality? So why’s that 140m? Maybe, it‘s some kind of first stage of balancing?
2. Why is the spell Chaos Channels gone from the game?
There are many over- or under-powered spells in the game, most of them can be fixed, toned down, or modified (it can have upkeep or become combat only etc.). Black channels became Spectral Force, interesting. So is there some strong reason to get rid of CC? Every realm has an uncommon spell that can answer the „flying enemies“ problem. CC is the spell for Chaos (wings or breath).
3. Why has Death realm 7 summon spell in common and uncommon level, which is more than 1/3 of all spells there?
I understand that every unit is specific, but 7 really feels like too much. We’d like to do other things than summonning lowly creatures. Which leads me to a related question…
4. Why do we need the possibility to summon Zombies?
This spell really feels like one we could do without. Zombies are useless for anything but defense, because of their movement. For defense, I will probably have enough of them when I use Ghouls. And the AI cannot handle the „I choose not slow units for attacking stack“, so it will be badly crippled. In fact it is crippled by the very existence of a half-move unit. So why use up a spell place for it? Demon is a great addition, Zombies suck.
5. What is the reason for the combat variant of Word of Recall to disappear?
There is known problem with misuse of WoR, but it is the overland variant which is the culprit. Summoning Circle + WoR is equal to teleporting for 70 mana (something that should be possible only with very rare spell Earth gate cast twice!). Personnally, I always liked WoR and I don’t find it too overpowered, because the retreating in MoM is pure hazard. The change I suggest is: the unit is teleported to the fortress instead of Summ.Circle + teleported unit is stripped of spells + cannot move that turn. That is far harder to use for your advantage and the (not very good) spell Move fortress has now a new possible meaning. Also note that WoR could be used by the AI as a quick and practical fortress defense!
6. Why is Cloud of Fear gone from the game?
Aureus has got rid of it because at the time it was bugged. Not anymore. And it’s a unique spell that allows you to bypass the counterattack of enemy units. It works great in combos, like with attack-only abilities (fire breath) or with Berserk. Real pity.
7. With increased speed, why not reduce the maximum of turns in battle from 50 to 30?
The mod aims for quicker game. The reduction has good consequences: first, Call lightning, Wrack, Magic vortex, Mana leak, flying invisible tricks, they all lose some of their vast powers. This is generally good, since clicking 50 * NrUnits on „DONE“ shouldn‘t be the best way of winning a computer game. - And then there is the new positive part: if you lay a siege, you now urgently need to break in the castle, which makes all of those „Disrupts“ and „Wall crushers“ and Orcs valuable. Also, waiting for defending bowmens to shoot all their arrows out may have a downside.
I can answer several of these as this mod originates from Aureus. I'm not sure whether reversing them is too difficult.
1. Why do all common summons cost 140 mana?
You got me there - I'm guilty of this cost standardization beyond what you wrote. The main purpose is for testing units against each other while not affecting functionality of the mod.
A few versions forward, I plan to make mild fluctuations in cost among tiers 1-4 summon units (and possibly military units) once I get more confident my units are balanced - a very complex task when purposely forcing inferior/superior units within a race or realm. I feel I'm getting there. I may also add slight variations for uncommon/rare research spell costs.
2. Why is the spell Chaos Channels gone from the game?
It's a symptom of starting my modding from the 'Aureus+insecticide' mod. I like chaos-channels a lot with the armor issue corrected. Not only because of your reasons, but because it's unpredictable, powerful but with the vulnerability of being targeted by 'star fires'/'dispel evil'. Additionally, it interacts with Chaos Surge.
Currently, 'chaos channels' replaces 'immolation' which is not a boring spell, especially if I decide to buff it - benefiting ranged units and melee+thrown units even more.
Why has Death realm 7 summon spell in common and uncommon level, which is more than 1/3 of all spells there?
skeleton, ghouls, zombies, night stalkers, werewolves, shadow demons, and demon. Yeah, that's quite a lot and I feel I need to differentiate them a bit more. I'm giving 'skeletons' weakened stats, first strike (and lower summoning cost)- it'll be interesting to have an early unit with both large shield and first strike (highmen cavalry and paladins enjoy this combo as well).
Why do we need the possibility to summon Zombies?
Aureus had 'zombies' as a combat spell and it broke the AI, casting nothing but zombies even late in game. I turned it into a survival early game summon, meant to protect your cities (and quell unrest) as your opponents hate you when you play as a death wizard. From my death wizard game, I felt it fit in pretty well and so far I haven't seen opponents create stacks with zombies slowing them down. I find 'zombies' among the less mod-damaging of Aureus' spell additions that I disagree with.
5. What is the reason for the combat variant of Word of Recall to disappear?
_Brought the combat variant back up. Overland variant now costs twice as much.
6. Why is Cloud of Fear gone from the game?
Aureus replaced it with 'chill touch' which I kind of like, but the '3 auto-damage' could be applied to fire bolt.
'cloud of fear' is a fun spell with 'black prayer'.
7. With increased speed, why not reduce the maximum of turns in battle from 50 to 30?
I didn't think of this - I don't use such exploits, but if this is a matter of changing 1 number in wizard.exe, I'm up for it.
First, thanks for answers!
Some very good news in there for me, like future variations of units, spell and research costs, Chaos Channels heading back etc. Few remarks to your answers, see under:
Quote:Currently, 'chaos channels' replaces 'immolation' which is not a boring spell, especially if I decide to buff it - benefiting ranged units and melee+thrown units even more.
I must say that your Immolation idea (to use somewhat strange, flawed benefits of current spell as an advantage for thrown and ranged abilities ) has greatly rejuvenated the spell. So I would be a bit sad to see it gone (although CC is more important).
Quote: I feel I need to differentiate them a bit more
What I wanted to say is that differentiation is (probably) not going to cut it for me. I imagine playing a 10-book death wizard, I have all 7 summon spells to learn... Will I ever use all of them? In 1.31 I had problems to accomodate 5 summons in realms and I always said to myself "another one?" while playing Nature. The research feels flat and less exciting when you see something more of what you already have in the book. - (and I have the same problem in Chaos rare section in 1.31, all damage spells become quicky a chore.)
Quote: so far I haven't seen opponents create stacks with zombies slowing them down
That is because the AI needs to be reprogrammed to understand your (Aureus) bigger changes, like swapping spells. Right now, AI does not summon Zombies, evidently. You either let it be so (which damages AI since it cannot use what you can), or you let AI summon Zs only to see slow attacking stacks as AI loves summonning. A bit of a loss-loss situation.
As I have a soft spot for Chill Touch (hehe) like you do, I would welcome some solution of type: Zombies out, Chill Touch in, Cloak of Fear back. That would seem a good step in all things I questioned in early Death realm. (and maybe the Chill Touch could have the same ability as Life Drain had => to see more natural Zombies? It would complement Ghouls nicely.) - Well, that is just some raw ideas, think twice etc.
Quote:_Brought the combat variant back up. Overland variant now costs twice as much.
Overland seems too powerful still (remember the Earth gate costing 300), but I leave the thing to you, I never use the exploit. If ever you feel like making it "to the fortress", it's very easy and it has potential AI benefit.
Turn limit -
Quote: if this is a matter of changing 1 number in wizard.exe, I'm up for it.
I suggest you think about it more, try it, decide. Here are the addresses:
7B800 32=>1E (or whatever)
6C37C 32=>1E
In terms of adding 'chaos channels', the chaos 'uncommon' spell I find least interesting is by far 'raise volcano' - players don't like to destroy enemy towns they'll conquer, the mana bonus is puny, and it's also redundant to 'earthquake' and 'armaggeddon'. Immolation's non-intuitive quirk that makes it great for ranged and 'thrown/firebreath' units could simply be fixed by improving help.lbx and desk.lbx spell description.
But for the sake of AI, replacing immolation or eldrich weapon with chaos channels is the way to go
Cloak of Fear replacing Zombies is something I can go for -> skeletons are already good city-defenders (with low movement) in my mod. I just hope the AI doesn't spam 'cloak of fear' as much as it spammed 'combat zombies' in Aureus' mod.
Having 5 pretty diverse death overland summons before 'rare' for death is reasonable for me, though part of me wishes 'shadow demons' were in the 'rare' category.
*I like the idea of 'word of recall' sending units to the capital to limit exploits and to protect your capital if threatened.
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