Clan 9 From Outer Space

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Hilarious situation with the axe, which I actually didn't notice when I first logged in:

So I lost the axe to the bear, which is sadness. However! Kragroth's turn is after mine and before the barbs, and this just happened to be the turn his borders expanded, which meant that I actually did get contact with him!

And, wow:

I mean, I hadn't noticed his third city come in on the demos, but I just sorta assumed it had happened...

Kragroth's graphs:

How is he doing worse than Northstar? Like, wut? Not knocking on NS, but he's the player who doesn't seem to believe in workers/the power of improvements, at least based on other games. Based on Top 5, his capital is also size 6, which gives him a total of 11 pop max (to my 35). This just makes me even more ashamed of '38...

Has he lost a city to the barbs or something???

Lost a worker/warrior pair to the barbs:

Killed him off with Rantine, and moved him to the northern city spot. I also moved out the Ranch warrior (no. 7) to cover the southern city next turn.

You can also see another orc warrior moving in on Warrior 10, so I fortified him in place for now.

Northstar turned down OB, and tried to trap me with his scout:

He derped out, though, and failed to declare, so I could've just moved onto his tile. I decided, though, to take the 65% chance on his scout - if I win, that gives me a 7xp warrior, which creates all sorts of possibilities.

I won! [no picture, but then there're already 18 for this post and possibly 60 on this page...]

Hmm...I'm thinking that I might actually try and extort his worldmap out of this - he shouldn't take it, but you never know.

Another barb warrior moved up - I swear I got less than expected value from my worldspell, at least based on all the units I've seen:

Hopefully he suicides on the archer. If not, I've got plenty of time to maneuver my units around to protect from it, and I've got hardly any improvements down there either.

You can kinda-sorta see my galley movements down south here:

He'll actually take a 4th move (longshoreman), to move a bit faster than I calculated for, here (City 9 founds T53 by my count). You can also see, obscurely, a lizardman that spawned. Here's a closer shot:

I moved the guirella warrior up to cover the (chopping) worker, so hopefull he suicides on that. If not, I've emptied the Den for a turn or two to make sure that he can't get in the way of City 8.

For obvious reasons, I won't actually move the settlers there next turn. Instead they'll go N of the fur, so they can found without being in danger.


Anyway, now let's go talk the economics. As you've probably noticed, I'm saving gold, despite earlier professing to bulb RoK. This is because I had a long meta-talk to Bob about GP, the outcome of which being that it's probably best to just research RoK normally (only 7t at breakeven, with saved gold and new cities coming in probably less than 10t away), and use the GP on a GA in 20-25t, with the aim of building the Bone Palace during (after a city for the marble) to chain another GA. That means immediate tech path is RoK -> Philosophy -> Warfare -> KotE/MS (depending on if the GC falls).


Demos (mostly unchanged):

I'll do a City-by-City breakdown after this.

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Still a turn to report, as well as domestic, but:

I'm getting really annoyed with your habits here- you keep posting spoilers on all my threads, you take the most over-powered factions in all your games (I'm still fuming over the Clan being allowed in that late-era game, for instance: they should have been banned due to the Discovery Era basically negating most of the worst negative effects of their tech-disadvantage) which as the maintainer of the mod-mod everyone uses you help to ensure are OP'd in the first place (I've discussed how 90% of your changes in the long-run of a game indirectly favor the Clan before, for instance...), and you speak out of constant arrogance and conceit towards less experienced players (who you do your best to crush in all your multiplayer games- you always go for the newer/weaker guys early on- I did my research on your past games before coming up against you as an opponent) forgetting that you were once one yourself...

A community like this is built on honor and respect for everyone, including the new players. Would you please stop constantly talking down to me?


Regards,
Northstar

Northstar once again going beyond his bounds discussing this game:rollseye: and this time deciding to slur me (in your duel, Bob, so don't go looking for it). Let's respond bit by bit:
Yes, Clan are overpowered in Discovery. However, the point of this game was to discover those imbalances - we'd never played this before! I hadn't even realised their power until after my pick was selected, and Bob caned me with them in the duel. Banning them, or anyone else, was never discussed, and as far as I'm aware Northstar didn't even try for them (I feel like Dave posted that at some stage...).
And obviously I try for the leaders that will be good in particular games - I mean, duh - but in '37, for instance, I actually went against that explicitly, choosing Os Gabella despite knowing she was worse than Varn, simply because I wanted to test out the Sheaim in the mod.
And at 90% of the changes favoring the Clan. 90% of changes don't effect the Clan, tbh. And the only one that I've implemented that comes to mind is the scorpion clan change to weak. (Is that implemented, or is it next build? I forget...).
I really hope I don't come off as arrogant or concieted. As I'd be the first to tell you, I'm not a good player. I know the mod - decently, but not as well as players like DaveV, or those who've followed FFH for years like Selrahc, Bob or Ellimist - but I don't have micro genius or the spark of creativeness or just all round skill and terrifying application some others (*cough* TBS *cough*). I'm a middling player, and it's all I'll likely ever be. There's a reason I've lost every game on this forum (save Perpy, but that doesn't count), and that's not about to change.
I go for newer/weaker guys - oh just fuck off, will you? The slightest amount of research would disprove this handily (PB 18 - lol, PBEM50-something - Commodore, 37 - HK, 38 - only game started in ages, 39 - I proposed it, duel league - TBS/Mardoc/Bob).

[Old Harry]

Since I got the image of comic-book store guy stuck in my head I've found his posting a lot less annoying, and kinda charming in its own "fighting injustice one internet at a time" way.

[Ellimist]

Try not to let it bother you too much. You're a very solid player and he never will be as long as he keeps that attitude. You've tried to help him, but sometimes people just want to keep working their unimproved forests and lake tiles while blaming literally everything else for their failures.

Picking the strongest leaders for a given map+settings is always going to be important. It's just a function of FFH design and the fact that each civ is so dramatically different from the others. But then, just look at FFH-5 and we see two players get access to absurdly broken features and both of them still lost to the Sidar(a middle tier or low tier civ).

You're most likely going to win this game. Northstar can't cheapen that simply because you picked a better civ than he did for it. You'll win more pbems in the future, too, because you play well and you're willing to learn and improve. Statistically, most people will lose most of their games, so just focus on playing well and learning to play better.

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HeH, I've never really watched the Simpsons, so I wasn't sure what you were referring to, there. Maybe I'll research that and play some of his more irritating posts back in my head...

Thanks for that, Ellimist. I should've qualified, I definitely hope to win this game, and I also expect to improve in performance. However, I'm still lacking that essential something in approach that a number of players have, and most of my, as you say, solid performance lies in that I just apply myself and spend a lot of time thinking about each turn.
Which is not to say I'm bitter about that - far from it, I often enjoy my games more once it's clear they're unwinnable, and I'm normally just happy to potter around, managing my empire and eking out a position.

[Ellimist]

I'm spoilering this just in case it's crossing the line into what is unacceptable for a general lurker. It's all general advice unrelated to this particular game, but I wrote more of it than I originally expected.

most of my, as you say, solid performance lies in that I just apply myself and spend a lot of time thinking about each turn.

This is a major factor in my own performance as well.

(here's some unsolicited general advice)

Try to spend at least some of that time brainstorming and investigating for every possible crazy idea that might be relevant to that particular game. 90% or more of them will be useless, but others may lead you toward something useful. Just making this into a habit can help you recognize it when you have a unique opportunity to do something powerful.

Also... Have a reason for the decisions you make. Make plans for the short, middle, and long term. Plans for the big picture and plans for individual workers and cities. (signs on the map help a ton) Then look for opportunities or reasons to abandon or modify them. Don't just be willing to change your plans, constantly ask yourself whether a particular plan is still the right one to be doing. Seek out any information that might be relevant, and when you find something, weigh your options and make a new plan(which will often be the same as the old plan.)

Consider incentives, and which ones you want your opponents to have. Do you want an opponent to build military units? Do things that make them feel threatened. Do you want them to avoid building military units? Avoid doing those things and try to help them feel safe. If diplomacy is available, avoid NAPs but don't be afraid to offer one-way "I'm not going to attack you" pledges for defined periods of time. They usually provide the same actual benefits (building goodwill and discouraging militarization) without the downsides and without expectation of automatic renewal. Seriously, the "can't be attacked by them" side of a NAP is usually a false and imaginary "benefit" and you are probably better off without it. Also, don't ever trade your map away without careful consideration and a good reason. It's a decision you can't undo that might be regretted later. Surplus resources are the opposite. I'm usually happy to trade those away even if the deal is bad, because it costs me nothing but benefits them. If the deal is ever cancelled, such as due to war, they instantly get hit with the loss of whatever health or happiness you were giving them.

Be very careful when it comes to mobility. Don't chop jungles or forests without a good reason if they are positioned somewhere that might help to slow an invader down. If any opponent has the raiders trait, build your roads carefully across the entire empire. Use cities as road chokepoints so that an invader can't easily bypass your defensive units. Yes, these are usually small risks at any given location, but the key is to recognize the risk so you can make a rational decision about it. You can't unbuild a road or unchop a forest.

"Play to your outs." If the only way for you to win is to take a certain risk and get lucky, take that risk. If you can't win unless something you can't control happens(or doesn't happen), assume that it is going to happen(or not.) Never surrender, but make decisions based on what you think will help you to win, however unlikely that is.

Military units are tools, just like workers are. This isn't BTS, so don't be afraid to build more warriors and scouts and other units if you can put them to any productive use. Sometimes that will be as simple as risk-mitigation, but often it will be more. Obviously I'm not saying to go overboard, but it's important to realize how different FFH is from BTS. Early game BTS units are completely worthless later on, unlike FFH warriors. Exploration in BTS is not as important as it is in FFH, and not as rewarding. Opportunities for a profitable war can happen very quickly in FFH and you may need units ready very quickly to take advantage. Having some surplus units available is also the best way to take advantage of FFH's promotion system.

Lastly... Never forget that FFH is incredibly situational. Every game situation is unique, and things that would usually be the obviously incorrect to do will sometimes be the right decision. Don't be afraid to take risks, or make plays that have a small chance of succeeding but will reap huge rewards if they do. Keep in mind whatever your main goals are, and try to determine what goals your opponents have. Don't expect them to make mistakes, but be ready to take advantage when they do.

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Anyway, onto the turn. I moved my goblin NW, and met Dreylin's C4 Bounty Hunter Axe:

Combined with the C2 Lion Pride, I basically can't progress on from here without dying. I think unless the lion moves, I'll just move NW again, and then delete the scout.

Though actually, now that I think about it, I might stick around with him, in case we end with the 'Pride being attacked by Dreylin and exposing himself. I'm worried about three things here, basically.

• 1) I want to forestall or at least not aid his axes xp gain. 5 promos is 17xp minimum, and with barb farming it's not hard to imagine him finding himself enough to qualify for Form of the Titan anyway, and with his tech speed plus vaults he stands a good chance of getting it (though not overwhelming - remember how far away copper is, so he'll be unlikely to have reached it in time). This means I don't want to lose my goblin to him, and I want to avoid him killing the pride on the attack.
  
• 2) I want to keep an eye on anything that moves back and forth here, especially on his axe coming further south. This is because - though he is unlikely to realise it - he is very very close to my borders, and even just one C4 axe could cause a ton of damage/disruption to me (though it's truly amazing what raw numbers of units can do, and I can make units very very quickly). And that axe has probably killed a lizard, btw, and certainly would be able to, if fully healed, take out the one barring access to my land. At the same time, I don't want to draw him south, to follow my goblin.
  
• 3) This is much lesser, by comparison, but I also have no small mind towards finding a little bit more about the NW, especially as I have a theory about the map/our placements on it, which I'll likely unveil next turn.

So there's competing priorities there. Having thought about it, he'll probably stay in place or react to opponent's moves.

Anyway, now that I've got everyone's graphs, here you go:

Yeah, Dreylin's the competition.

No-one else has met anyone yet:

Which is just how I like it

Barbs moved kinda weirdly, so I kept the archer in place:

Thane following me, but so long as we remain on rough terrain, we can avoid him:

Left unpromoted so I have more flexibility to respond to events/in the hope that he underestimates me.

Oh and the lizardman moved away (unpictured). No idea why.

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No pictures this turn (or the three previous that scrolling tells me have gone down). Mostly because I quit by accident after ending turn.

I continue to fence with Northstar's disciple units. I got vision on his cap - it's placed really weirdly (IIRC) and now I'm moving south, to try and get a look at another city I've seen.

Circumnavigation will come in (a maximum of) 10t, due to a bit of investment into galleys and FtH. Worthwhile, IMO, especially for the threat they pose.

Finally identified everyone's quadrants. Kragroth is East, Dreylin is N/S and Northstar is kinda NW. I'm going to try and circle around at Dreylin with my galley, so it looks like I came from the opposite direction (his high promo, high strength units are scary).

I settled I think up to city 8? I lost a settler to a giant spider. Replacing that (this time with escort!) and planting another over the next two turns.

One of those cities is the ICTR one, which I settled on a new island I found at the last minute.

RoK should come in the next 2/3 turns. I'd love to say 2, but I doubt it will happen, because maintenance is hiking up. I revolt to City States on T56, and it will (at current) save me 28gpt, in return for maybe 10gpt/16hpt (all of these are remembered). So not clear-cut yet.

I have nothing for my warrens cities to do, so they're getting Training Yards and Dereptus (cap - swap away once RoK) up. And I mean nothing - I have 14 warriors around my cities, 15(?) workers and am paying 18gpt (?) in unit maintenance.

Deleted my goblin around Dreylin this turn, as he kept advancing. Slightly worried, there.


This is my 6666 post. And boy is it worth it.

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I have pictures, just not posting them.

Circumnavigation comes in next turn. Underestimated myself here.

Zealot killed my warrior in the Elohim lands. Eh, whatever. Does mean they have a 3-promo zealot, but that's hardly relevant.

...actually, did I mention this earlier? North has a Zealot and a Thane running around with a ton of XP, and I'm pretty sure they're the ones he got from the techs!

Anyway. Demos are ludicrously good. Had a moment of terrible GNP, before I could revolt into CS - I should've done it a bit earlier, really, but another revolt made it impossible. CS was worth 24gpt, where before I'd had only 17. New GNP is actually better than one of my opponents (I think Northstar) though still only about half Dreylins.

Power, I'm top, but the number is very deceptive - largely pop, garrison and galleys. Hammers, I'm top and about 1.5x Dreylins - impressive, but not magnificent. Basically just he has three full size cities hammering away, whilst my runts are just coming up to that stage.

Food, however, is where I take off. I have three times rival best (Dreylin) in food, with 154fpt to something like 50fpt! And something like 5x rival worst. And bear in mind this is with no city at the growth cap, and three cities still at size 1.

Dreylin found my island city, so knows where I am. I'm moving Rantine and some warriors north to stop any incursions. Fortunately his oddly-promoted axeman will give me a fighting chance (C4/Bounty Hunter, where Rantine will go straight up to Shock and (eventually) Shock II.

This does mean an barb axe has a okay chance of killing a city next turn (4.4 vs 5.3, in my favor). Which sucks, but is a risk I'm prepared to take.

Finished RoK this turn. Thane spawned 3t away from the cap, which sucked. Still, going to move him up anyway. Save gold next, then Warfare.

Dereptus finishes in a few turns. Ahh, good point, I should remember to road the rice.

Found corn to my north, actually, which is a bit annoying, as I would've settled there a lot earlier if I'd known. Thems the breaks.

16 workers, 10 cities. T56. More settlers already queued.

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Two. More. Posts.

Until a new page, and I don't have to load all these bloody images.

Obligatory circumnaz image:

Spoilered because I've learned the error of my ways. No more!