WW37- For Whom the Bell Trolls

[Gazglum]

For God's sake Pindi, I'm writing responses now between work things. Give me room to breathe sir!

[Gazglum]

But seriously, that's twice now you've changed the subject before answering my questions, Gaz.

I swear to God I am writing to you RIGHT NOW.

[Shadeun]

I swear to God I am writing to you RIGHT NOW.

More excuses...

[Gazglum]

Back from work now and basically exactly this. wtf Gazglum - you vote Novice because he's attacking a seer that says he's going to help the town, so novice is anti-town for that - as you said:

Commogore is a seer that can catch scum. Novice wants him dead. That's why I voted Novice.

but when you have a chance to save the same seer who you say can catch scum, this is what you reply:

Because I think matt is town?

Which is it - did you think Commodore was going to play ball with town or not? You gave some pretty strong leanings that you thought Commodore was acting in kind and playing ball at the end of the day -- in fact, those seemed to be some of the strongest town reads you gave all day.

I thought Commodore was what he said, a survivor who wanted to be loved. I mean, you have as much history with Commodore as any of us, Pind. He follows his emotions, he develops grudges. I think if town had flattered and cajoled him, we could have got him on side. And more importantly, we would have got information out of him about people's alignments. It might have been lies, but it easily might not have been. I think Commodore would scan the people who annoyed him the most, and then if he found them scum, he would out them in revenge for their attacks on him. Or maybe not, we won’t know now. Point is that he was potentially valuable. And I like having him around.

But that doesn’t mean that I thought Commodore was solid gold town material, it meant that I thought he made a bad policy lynch. I would rather have voted an actual scum. Novice’s reactions to Commodore's claim made me want to take the gamble on him over Commodore. Will elaborate next.

And where were the Mattimeo town reads if that's what you thought he was? It's not like there was a last minute bandwagon on him; he was getting heat all day. But there's a single line of how he reads "more invested" this game than last and every other post is back to commenting about Commodore.

I didn’t talk much about Mattimeo when it came up earlier because I didn’t find the case on him compelling. He was cocky again? I didn’t vote for him last game for being cocky, I voted him for bad logic and uberlurking. This game Matt was posting better, as I said. Then he claimed a protective role. I’m not in love with Commodore enough to hang a doctor over him. I said:

Ok, let's not vote Doctor Matt. And Dtay, Shadeun and Lewwyn are clearly out for the count so they are dead votes.

Also lynching Matt would have meant throwing our votes in with Dtay, Shadeun and Lewwyn, who through drunkenness, fear, incapacity or whatever had left their votes hanging there without any sign of conviction. I’d rather have voted Goreripper than join that wagon.

Perhaps I could have talked that out more at the time, but I had 20 minutes to catch up and defend myself.

This smells all kinds of scummy like you really wanted Commodore to go but didn't want to get your hands dirty to do it; so you're going to just sit back and let it go bad. Maybe you really did think Commodore was going to help the town and that's what convinced you to stay on novice.

If I wanted Commodore to go, why wouldn't I get my hands dirty? Everyone else was digging in. It's not like a policy lynch where the wolves know that the target is going to flip innocent, so they don't want to be onboard. Commodore flipped exactly as we expected him to - a survivor. If I did think Commodore was a danger to me, why not just vote him?

I thought Commodore was not the best lynch. I would have voted him over myself, but I wanted Novice.

[pindicator]

But seriously, that's twice now you've changed the subject before answering my questions, Gaz.

I swear to God I am writing to you RIGHT NOW.

Sorry, just bad luck on the timing then. That was my morning window for reading and sneak a post in over breakfast before getting to work.

[Rowain]

just information about how you reason, willingness to fight, etc. No point in giving that away for nothing early game.

Sorry but that's bad for town. If you reach an endgame for example (2 townies 1 scum) you want the 2 townies to trust each other more than they trust scum else the game is lost. By making it hard or impossible to get a read on you you mark yourself as A likely lynch on the lastday. Bad luck if you are town and the scummie one earned more trustpoints than you with the other townie. Not to mention that being secretive and trying to hide makes it possible you wont see endgame because of getting lynched before.

Last town won because the sumplayer left had too few townpoints to survive. The game before scum won because the 2 townies left fought each other while the scumplayer applaing your "don't give info away"-tactic sailed to an easy win.

TLDR: Your tactic is good for scum bad for town.

[Shadeun]

just information about how you reason, willingness to fight, etc. No point in giving that away for nothing early game.

Sorry but that's bad for town. If you reach an endgame for example (2 townies 1 scum) you want the 2 townies to trust each other more than they trust scum else the game is lost. By making it hard or impossible to get a read on you you mark yourself as A likely lynch on the lastday. Bad luck if you are town and the scummie one earned more trustpoints than you with the other townie. Not to mention that being secretive and trying to hide makes it possible you wont see endgame because of getting lynched before.

Last town won because the sumplayer left had too few townpoints to survive. The game before scum won because the 2 townies left fought each other while the scumplayer applaing your "don't give info away"-tactic sailed to an easy win.

TLDR: Your tactic is good for scum bad for town.

So you say scum tries just as hard to win respect as town? Therefore you learn nothing about people by how hard they try to make you like them (so similar to real life....)

However, you are probably right. These lessons you guys make are learned over repeated games and mine are simply intuition.

At this point however, I am clearly engaged (and not following my own advice it seems).

[Rowain]

So you say scum tries just as hard to win respect as town? Therefore you learn nothing about people by how hard they try to make you like them (so similar to real life....)

However, you are probably right. These lessons you guys make are learned over repeated games and mine are simply intuition.

Scum wins easiest if they are allowed to shut up and lurk in the shadows while town kills itself. Talkative scum wins have happened but require a lot more work.

[Shadeun]

So you say scum tries just as hard to win respect as town? Therefore you learn nothing about people by how hard they try to make you like them (so similar to real life....)

However, you are probably right. These lessons you guys make are learned over repeated games and mine are simply intuition.

Scum wins easiest if they are allowed to shut up and lurk in the shadows while town kills itself. Talkative scum wins have happened but require a lot more work.

Makes sense

[Gazglum]

So I think Novice is scum.

First off a tiny thing - I thought his joke vote jumping straight onto me after Lewwyn was a bit weak, so I prodded him by asking him how he might play Day 1 as scum. A silly question sure, but he answered it with another question, which was mildly evasive.

That said, if you're impersonating me, why are you asking me how to play day 1 as scum?

Anyway, Novice's day consisted of pressuring Agnes then jumping onto Goreripper and staying there. He voted Gazglum > Agnes > Goreripper, and I was a joke vote.

I presume that Novice would agree that it would have been preferable to hang a scum over a neutral. So why not at least keep looking for scum all day? But as soon as Goreripper claims, Novice is comfortable to park on him. He believes the claim, but thinks Gore is the best target.

OK, so your claim sounds legit, Goreripper. If nothing changes I will still vote for you, though. You were acting scummily prior to your claim so this /could/ be a creative false claim. But even if it's true, we can never trust your vote nor your results, and we'll probably have to lynch you closer to LyLo anyway.

I don't have scum leans on Mattimeo or Jabbz either, so that's another reason to stay on you.

And at any rate, working towards a no lynch is certainly not the way to get town on your side.

So what happened to Agnes? Novice forgets about Agnes. I called him on that and he said, “She saw the error of her ways”, yet but he still disagreed with her. But Novice -wasn’t- voting Agnes for her error with the rules, he was voting her for

“Seeming insincere”,
“making a questionable statement”,
“giving off a feeling of feigned nonchalance”
"shrugging off" Novice’s attacks.

So where have the town points come from? He doesn't even weigh this against Goreripper; he's lost interest in the Agnes case because he didn't believe it in the first place.

It's not that Novice voted Goreripper, it's that he didn't even TRY to find an alternative.

It's the same thing as Friendly Neighbourhood Serial Killer Ichabod that other game, where I also advocated (from beyond the grave) keeping Ichabod alive. A third-party offers to lend potential support to the cause, you should be open to it. In that game the scum lined up to kill Ichabod as quick as they could. Scum love a policy lynch, it keeps their hands clean. That is exactly what Novice did here. This game Novice clung tight to a Gore lynch and stopped scum hunting immediately.

Other point: he told drunk Lewwyn to move to Goreripper, with zero reasoning. I find that VERY questionable. When I called him on that he says,

Gore will always be the default lynch given his claim.

Which is a way of shutting down questions on the lynch. Gore becomes lynch by ‘default’, even though Jabbz, Mattimeo and me are all highly in the running at different moments.

Pindicator makes a case on me, Novice doesn’t think, "hey, maybe Pindicator is right, Gazglum could be a wolf." he just ignores it. I quickly became a clear alternative to a policy lynch, and Novice doesn’t even have an opinion on that?

When Fenn attacked him, Novice responded and said that

I reread Fenn's posts and they don't inspire confidence. Three consecutive badly founded votes on Zakalwe, Lewwyn and me. Voting for unlynchables to stay out of the limelight?

But then when I call him scum trying to policy lynch a seer, Novice just doesn’t engage. Again, you’d think that if multiple other people are calling me scum, and then I attack him, that Novice might want to –consider- me as an option over Goreripper at least as much as he did Fenn. But he doesn’t want to have that conversation at all, because he is happy with his vote where it is. He doesnt' want to move to me, because he knows I'm going to flip town and he has messed up his nice clean suit with my blood.

Novice showed no interest in finding an alternative to lynching Commodore, and that is both out character and scummy.

Oh, and finally, this made me laugh:

I was actually trying to make a point. I don't like it when people give a reason for a vote but don't dare to call it scummy, opting instead to describe it as weird, bizarre, etc.

Words Novice used to describe Agnes’ posts, after voting for her: disingenuous, pointless, unconvincing, insincere, questionable, odd and feigned.

Word Novice did not use: scummy


So Novice, now that we spent a lynch removing Goreripper, what have we learned? Who were the scum?