[SPOILERS] Cheater Hater hates bad advice. BGN gives only bad advice.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

I suggest you build if where it gives the most benefit, which is the NE city. You can always change some farms to workshops as you build. You'll need lots of hammers to finish both TGL and NE.

[Cheater Hater]

T163, and although some domestic stuff started today (notably I started the Great Library in Vienna), this post is going to focus on the upcoming Adrien war. Let's start by looking at Adrien's troops in the north, where I'd be attacking:


Wow, that's not a lot of troops--there are only 10 units total in the seven northern cities, and one of those is a Great Scientist
Where are all of Adrien's troops? I'm assuming some might be in ipecac's territory, but the majority are in the south:


That's a lot of troops, including a bunch of Praetorians. Still, most of the troops are far away from the front, and they might even be moving into ipecac territory soon (or having to defend against all the troops ipecac is presumably sending in the next wave, based on all the whips and the necessary consultations between teammates). As such, here's what my plans look like:


Next turn (T164) I'll have a bunch of 2-movers on the staging tile S (I don't have exact counts, but I'll go into more detail in a bit). The one problem with this is that Adrien actually has visibility on the staging tile--still, I'm setting things up so I could conceivably attack johns instead from that tile by roading my mine (since johns roaded the tile NE of the mine, I could conceivably move the stack so it would threaten Duck You Sucker on T166--obviously I'm not doing that since Duck You Sucker actually has a decent garrison, but Adrien probably doesn't know that ). Anyway, assuming there aren't major troop movements from Adrien in the next two turns, I'll declare and split my 2-mover stack into two parts. The first part will move to A, attack and keep Tungelae, and hopefully cause Adrien's culture to shrink enough so I can move a couple 1-movers from Strassburg into Tungelae to help defend it. The rest of the 2-movers will move onto the conveniently-placed tile B, where it will fork both Maserus and Mtunzimia. Of course, that second part is dependent on whether Adrien realizes what's going on and starts to move units from Red Blood Beach to the north--we have to watch for units disappearing from the southern cities, since there's a big patch of fog where there are no cities. The next turn on T166, I'll hopefully be able to use the stack on B to take both Maserus and Mtunzimia (probably burning both, though I might be able to keep Mtunzimia depending on the status of Adrien's troops). The more interesting thought is possibly moving some (or all) of the 2-movers on A onto the C tile, where I can possibly attack and burn Qunnum. If we assume Adrien doesn't move his troops at all until I declare, there's no way I should get this, since Adrien could just move some of the troops from Hluhluwae (seriously, these impossible-to-spell city names) into Lobambus on T165, then defend Qunnum on T166. Obviously there are going to be at least a couple more troops in the non-Tungelae cities regardless (from whips if nothing else), but I have a ton of troops coming:


As I mentioned, I don't have exact numbers on how many troops I have yet, but I know that I'll have exact numbers next turn, and the stack will include most, if not all of my 2-movers, adding up to around 25 units I think. That should be plenty of units to take Tungelae obviously, and if I have ~15 to fork the two cities, that should be enough to burn both.

Is there anything obvious I'm missing here? I know my staging tile is visible to Adrien, but that's a necessary evil to hit all the tiles I want on the declare turn--I get to see nearly his entire territory for 10+ turns, he can see my stack for 1 turn

One more quick thing before I go that didn't really fit anywhere else: Elum/mack declared on Whosit last turn! That's a surprise, especially since I didn't realize they shared a border yet--then again, Grimace only has 3 cities left and he was the only buffer. Those two have nearly equal power--in fact, the power graph is interesting:


There's a bunch of grouping near the top of the graph, with ipecac and I nearly tied, while Whosit and Elum are closely behind. Of course, trailing are Adrien and johns, and then we have Grimace's steady decline. Hopefully I can keep up my lead while I take a bit of a break from my military build up to build Universities, Banks, and my wonders in Vienna.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

Quick question: Why such a buildup for war if you only intend to burn cities after the first one? That's a lot of hammers invested for not a lot gained. I suggest you capture and hold. The vector for reinforcement is only from the north. You should be able to keep a local numerical superiority and use your catapults in a defensive posture to threaten an incoming counterattack. Make sure you have workers available to build roads where you need them so you can hold your gains. I wouldn't go to war just to burn cities and allow johns to swoop in and claim the newly fallow land.

The development with whosit is interesting. If the war is a real one, and there is no reason that I can see here to think it is not, this gives you a long front that you can be reasonably sure you can lightly defend. You should have a scout or city visibility to make sure so you are not just relying on hope and luck, but this is reasonably a certainty that whosit will throw his forces to the east to repel the invasion. This means you can fight all the harder against Rome and wine more land, and probably even take some chances. Tempo is critically important in warfare because every turn means more whips and more population lost on your eventual conquests, so don't be afraid to risk a little if the odds are worth it and you can reinforce properly to hold the gain. Do you think it will be possible to capture and hold the capital if you can make the culture to the east of the capital disappear? If you can get the culture to go away then you can pile units into the capital and hold the line there, dividing the territory into two parts with the eastern part then being impossible to reinforce. I think probably you have to take Maserus to get rid of all of the culture east of the capital so you can properly reinforce. Mthathum's 40% culture will mean you would need to wade through enemy culture to approach the capital from Tungalae.

Good luck, I look forward to a little bloodletting.

[Cheater Hater]

Quick question: Why such a buildup for war if you only intend to burn cities after the first one? That's a lot of hammers invested for not a lot gained. I suggest you capture and hold. The vector for reinforcement is only from the north. You should be able to keep a local numerical superiority and use your catapults in a defensive posture to threaten an incoming counterattack. Make sure you have workers available to build roads where you need them so you can hold your gains. I wouldn't go to war just to burn cities and allow johns to swoop in and claim the newly fallow land.

Isn't it better to burn cities than let them be recaptured? I don't have that many 1-movers in the area (Melee units or Cats) and don't think I could hold those cities (unless I can be expected to hold them with a bunch of Knights and Chariots for a couple turns?). My thoughts are to burn the cities, make peace (which Adrien would be likely to accept since he's still fighting ipecac), then fill in the area with my own settlers. Your point about johns poaching the slots is a good one, though johns wouldn't border the area taken up by Maserus and Mthathum. If my wars should be bigger, is it worth delaying this war in order to get some 1-movers in the area? Or maybe the idea is to do the quick war I've talked about, then come back in 10 turns with all the units I can borrow from the eastern cities?

The development with whosit is interesting. If the war is a real one, and there is no reason that I can see here to think it is not, this gives you a long front that you can be reasonably sure you can lightly defend. You should have a scout or city visibility to make sure so you are not just relying on hope and luck, but this is reasonably a certainty that whosit will throw his forces to the east to repel the invasion. This means you can fight all the harder against Rome and wine more land, and probably even take some chances. Tempo is critically important in warfare because every turn means more whips and more population lost on your eventual conquests, so don't be afraid to risk a little if the odds are worth it and you can reinforce properly to hold the gain. Do you think it will be possible to capture and hold the capital if you can make the culture to the east of the capital disappear? If you can get the culture to go away then you can pile units into the capital and hold the line there, dividing the territory into two parts with the eastern part then being impossible to reinforce. I think probably you have to take Maserus to get rid of all of the culture east of the capital so you can properly reinforce. Mthathum's 40% culture will mean you would need to wade through enemy culture to approach the capital from Tungalae.

I've been trying to keep visibility on Whosit, but unfortunately he's actually trying to invest espionage wisely--I'm right on the border of city visibility (and I lost it mainly because I wanted research visibility on Elum right away), and my one spy I've sent into his territory was caught relatively early.
As for the tempo, that's why I want my wars to be so short--hopefully it hasn't been costing me any opportunities so far

[Cheater Hater]

T164, and we might have a problem--not only have ipecac and Adrien made peace, two Knights have already shown up in cities I want. That isn't that big of a deal by itself, but we still have multiple turns of reinforcements coming, especially in the capital and M-cities. There do appear to be fewer Praets in the SW, but they could just be in the fog. If I see a lot more troops, I might just try to take Tungelae on the declare turn, then make peace right away since fighting through to the M-cities wouldn't be worth it. Instead, what I could do is move my stack to the south--the trio of johns's cities Badman's River, Tepapa, and The Ugly have surprisingly few defenses, considering the rest of johns's empire. That's not to say things couldn't change--there is a stack of HA's that could defend a couple cities, for instance, and any Melee/Archery units that get into the cities will have their defenses magnified due to the Castles in Badman's River and The Ugly. I also can't take any cities on the declare turn, and I have to reveal my troops a turn early to even get in range of taking Badman's River on the turn after declaring--I could threaten The Ugly on the turn after while keeping my troops hidden in Vienna, but that city has by far the biggest garrison of those cities, and can easily be reinforced. I don't know if switching plans to attack Johns is a good idea, but it's something to think about at least.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

It isn't ideal to fight at tech parity, but I think the geography may favor you holding the line at Rome's capital. How many LKs have you built? This is the era for your UU and they hold up well against knights, so long as they aren't collateraled to death.

I think if you are going to risk war you must benefit from it. Razing cities limits your benefit and just serves to enrage your neighbor who will then have no rational reason to make peace because there is little to gain from it and little prospect for future success. You can hope to attack, capture, then get peace. After your quick invasion, if you meet with success then your opponent may think 10t of peace is in his favor, not knowing whether you are gassed and at the limit of your expansion potential or reinforced and ready to continue the campaign. Meanwhile, he will know his true defensive capability, and the likelihood is that his troops are still out of position and not quite ready to hit you, so the peace is potentially helpful to him (except you actually are at the limit of your expansion potential, for the moment, until you reinforce, but he won't know this). Lacking complete information, it is possible that he can reclaim lost ground once he's had a chance to regroup, unless you raze the cities. In this case he never has a reason to give peace. Typically, when playing from a weak position we overestimate our opponent's strength. Let Rome do this and hope that he can reinforce later. In 10t you can dissuade him from thinking recapture is possible and keep the cities. The mere act of firing the GA may make Rome reconsider because he'll know your output potential will beat his hands down, and he'll assume you'll gear up for more war. Don't disappoint him on this count.

If you have the advantage to take initiative and invade, I'm confident that you can be locally superior where it matters within 10t and reinforce sufficiently along a narrow front (Rome's capital and the first city you will capture) to the degree that you can deter a counterattack. Also, remember: You have not fired your GA yet, so look to do that. If you go 100% military (to hell with economic buildings) and fire a GA, you will outproduce your opponent by a heavy margin and make it impossible for him to successfully counterattack you on his own.

[Cheater Hater]

It isn't ideal to fight at tech parity, but I think the geography may favor you holding the line at Rome's capital. How many LKs have you built? This is the era for your UU and they hold up well against knights, so long as they aren't collateraled to death.

I think if you are going to risk war you must benefit from it. Razing cities limits your benefit and just serves to enrage your neighbor who will then have no rational reason to make peace because there is little to gain from it and little prospect for future success. You can hope to attack, capture, then get peace. After your quick invasion, if you meet with success then your opponent may think 10t of peace is in his favor, not knowing whether you are gassed and at the limit of your expansion potential or reinforced and ready to continue the campaign. Meanwhile, he will know his true defensive capability, and the likelihood is that his troops are still out of position and not quite ready to hit you, so the peace is potentially helpful to him (except you actually are at the limit of your expansion potential, for the moment, until you reinforce, but he won't know this). Lacking complete information, it is possible that he can reclaim lost ground once he's had a chance to regroup, unless you raze the cities. In this case he never has a reason to give peace. Typically, when playing from a weak position we overestimate our opponent's strength. Let Rome do this and hope that he can reinforce later. In 10t you can dissuade him from thinking recapture is possible and keep the cities. The mere act of firing the GA may make Rome reconsider because he'll know your output potential will beat his hands down, and he'll assume you'll gear up for more war. Don't disappoint him on this count.

If you have the advantage to take initiative and invade, I'm confident that you can be locally superior where it matters within 10t and reinforce sufficiently along a narrow front (Rome's capital and the first city you will capture) to the degree that you can deter a counterattack. Also, remember: You have not fired your GA yet, so look to do that. If you go 100% military (to hell with economic buildings) and fire a GA, you will outproduce your opponent by a heavy margin and make it impossible for him to successfully counterattack you on his own.

I haven't built any LKs yet (since my focus has been on Knights for this upcoming attack), but I do have a couple in progress near the Adrien border.

I feel like having all this information is making me second-guess everything--I'm used to seeing just one or two cities and then hoping my opponent doesn't have that much/assuming they have tons right away (based on the power graph). We'll see how things look when I log in later today (got things to do before I can start this stuff), and hopefully those two whips Adrien did aren't that important

How much should I be prioritizing my GA? Right now my next great person is set to come out of Vienna in 20 turns (that's with running 4 specialists, and it will be sooner assuming I get GL) and that's not for a while. Should I be starving Vienna to get the great person out faster?

Edit: Adrien moved really early this turn apparently--I can still declare if I want, right? Conversely, I don't get to protest if six units show up in Tungelae either, since I haven't actually declared, right?

[Cheater Hater]

Well, T165...sometimes the world just hates you






I have a feeling Adrien moving twice since my last move just kept me from getting massacred--we have around the same number of Knights, but I have Chariots while Adrien has Praets--and that's not even considering the secondary stack of 1-movers by Hluhluwae. He also just fired his GA, so he isn't running out of units anytime soon. While I obviously couldn't hold Tungelae, now I'm worried about holding Strassburg, and as such, even while I'm moving a bunch of the stack back, I kept some Knights in Strassburg, in addition to a couple upgrades. On top of all this mess I almost got myself into, Whosit made peace with Elum, so that flank isn't safe anymore. The only small bit of good news is that johns hasn't made any significant upgrades to his lightly-defended corner, and even there he just built a Longbow in Badman's River. Hopefully getting my first GA should help me get back to a position of tech dominance, even if it's just over my neighbors and not Elum.

One other thing I thought about--is it worth building the Parthenon in my capital? It's only 8 turns, but I don't how how much better it is now that it's +50% everywhere. I don't think it's good to fit it in anywhere in Vienna's build order, and the capital still can build a Bank before having to worry about what to build next (whether it's the Parthenon or just more military).

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

Yeah. Looks like maybe you dodged a bullet. So is Adrien's other war over? I'd suggest queuing up a few LKs and looking elsewhere for conquest for now. Johns may be the best target. Or, just build enough military to deter aggression against you and keep teching away. Eventually, though, you'll need more land to keep up with whoever has eaten the biggest chunk of Grimace, so don't be too far behind.

[Cheater Hater]

Yeah. Looks like maybe you dodged a bullet. So is Adrien's other war over? I'd suggest queuing up a few LKs and looking elsewhere for conquest for now. Johns may be the best target. Or, just build enough military to deter aggression against you and keep teching away. Eventually, though, you'll need more land to keep up with whoever has eaten the biggest chunk of Grimace, so don't be too far behind.

Yeah, the Adrien/ipecac ended on T163 (after I played, so I learned about it on T164), but I didn't think Adrien would get his troops over here quite that fast--I didn't realize he had that many Knights already (though I remember seeing the Combat V GG units; they might have been HA's when I saw them last), and thus that he'd get back to my territory that quickly. How much do I need to worry about losing Strassburg? In fact, I probably should get Walls in that city yesterday--heck, I'm logging in right now to start them so I can whip them next turn if necessary. (Edit: And I did--I could have whipped it now actually, but he can't attack with the big stack next turn, so I can avoid the insta-whip penalty (and the 2nd pop penalty))