EitB v12 Wishlist/Progress

[Qgqqqqq]

12. Caste System gains low upkeep, +1g per specialist, loses +1b per specialist.

13. Wane requires level 5.

14. Pact of Nilhorn price reduced to 200h base (133h quick)

15. CRE recieves +100% Public Baths speed. Anti synergetic with Drama push, but eh well.

16. Sidar Palace gives +1g for priest specialists.

17. Warrens give +10% maintenance.

18. Barbarian Peace triggers on 110% of rivals score. Delayed for first 5 turns (so you don't lose it when you settle.

19. Bannor get +1h per cottage, (hamlet, village, town)???
- Too much? 1c instead? Or nothing?
- (How can this be implemented? Palace?)

20. Can switch religions/civics every 8t, not 10t

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Perhaps make Scholarship avaiable if you build TGLibrary (+2 scientists or something and no +beakers for specs). This way, it works like Pyramids and Rep in BTS. If you land the Mids, you get REP faster, but everyone will get there eventually, if they want.

Considered this. Issue is, unlike in BTS not everyone will go anywhere near Arcane Lore most of the time (sure, Constitution is a little off, but on nowhere near the same scale), so it's not so much of an open economy choice, which I largely want it to be. There's also that it would enable the civic directly (which I'm not sure how possible it is) or else have weird dynamics, and the fact that I don't want to change the purpose of the wonder so much.

[Kragroth]

Proposals:

1. Guild loses +1h to workshops. +1h added to workshops by default.

2. Guarded lairs take 3 turns just like regular ones.

3. Windmills buildable at Mathematics (not engineering)

4. Aristocracy moves from -40% maintenance to -10%

5. Galleys lose 1 move (to 2 moves base, 3 with longshoreman)

6. Naval promotions are switched up. Longshoreman now loses 1 combat, Buccaneers now loses 1 cargo, and Skeleton Crew loses nothing.

7. Eurabates, Drifa, and Abashi gain the Hero promotion.

8. Foreign Trade loses +1 trade route everywhere; gains +50% trade-route yield.
- Should this be +25%?

9. The Great Library gives +2b per specialist (from +1b)

10. The Dragon's Hoard gives +2 cpt, +100% cpt, +10gpt, Gems, Enchantment Mana, and Gold. (Instead of all other affects)

11. Pacifism gains infinite sage, infinite merchant slots.



Go nuts.

1. This is fine but how about workshops at masonry and windmills at construction

2. How about 2 turns and leave 3 turns for the epic lairs

3. See 1

4. Aristocracy does not need a nerf so imho no. There's also a forumbpost on civ fanatics demonstrating why the original aristocracy (no maint bonus) needed more.

5.Why is this necessary?

6. What's thr benefit for this change?

7. Sure why not (not like they grt built or anything)

8. The point of foreign trade is like City States, You can make buildings that remove maintenance but the civic will effectively do that for you. Right now foreign trade has a lot of competition for its civic slot. if anything it needs to keep its trade routes and improve trade yield at the least. It'd be nice if it gave you something militarily like hiring mercenaries outside of guild of the nine.

9.That's fine I suppose.

10. This only further disincentivizes Magocracy. I prefer 2 free sages from BTS.

11. This obsoletes late game civics and disincentivizes going for certain techs. The problem with Pacifism is that no one should start the game with it besides Grigori. moreover the choice of just sages or merchants feels arbitrary, the Elohim would likely prefer inf priests.

No, I don't like it. To properly do this requires a redesign of the tech tree.

[Kragroth]

12. Caste System gains low upkeep, +1g per specialist, loses +1b per specialist.

13. Wane requires level 5.

14. Pact of Nilhorn price reduced to 200h base (133h quick)

15. CRE recieves +100% Public Baths speed. Anti synergetic with Drama push, but eh well.

16. Sidar Palace gives +1g for priest specialists.

17. Warrens give +10% maintenance.

18. Barbarian Peace triggers on 110% of rivals score. Delayed for first 5 turns (so you don't lose it when you settle.

19. Bannor get +1h per cottage, (hamlet, village, town)???
- Too much? 1c instead? Or nothing?
- (How can this be implemented? Palace?)

20. Can switch religions/civics every 8t, not 10t

12. I guess gold is more valuable in the endgame. Sure.

13. Keep in mind this will allow with enough of the Altar, blatant 1 Turn waning. Unfortunately the Waning mechanic is just broken. It doesn't fit neatly in the game.

14. That will help it get built more which it currently doesn't much. We can try it.

15. I don't see why Public baths is antisynergistic with Drama, but this is fine.

16. Yes, thank you. I'm tempted to say let them wane into Great Prophets. But, I suppose Altar bonuses help too much on top of that.

17. That's probably fair.

18. What's wrong with 150% ? Why is this necessary?

19. How about +1 Food per Cottage. Consider letting them build cottages early. This conflicts with Kuriorates schtick somewhat (Maybe they should get +1 food for cottages too in addition to their Enclave). Make the growth of their cottages naturally faster like with the civic or technology.

20. Why 8? Why not 9 or 12 or 5 or 1?

[Ichabod]

19. Perhaps make the town not decrease to a village when a unit spawns. Or make something of a "enclave" upgrade to Bannor cottages, but the only thing happens is that a unit is born and you get straight back to a town. That'd make the bonus less random.

[Qgqqqqq]

1. This is fine but how about workshops at masonry and windmills at construction

No to the first, already responded to the previous. I don't like making workshops available at lower tech requirements (in raw terms) than mining - I like where they are now, tbh.

2. How about 2 turns and leave 3 turns for the epic lairs

See Bob's post for why this is done. And why would epic lairs be more, anyway?

4. Aristocracy does not need a nerf so imho no. There's also a forumbpost on civ fanatics demonstrating why the original aristocracy (no maint bonus) needed more.

Link it? I can see this being the case in EitB, as mentioned earlier, but I'd be very surprised if it was in raw.

5.Why is this necessary?

6. What's thr benefit for this change?

See above.

8. The point of foreign trade is like City States, You can make buildings that remove maintenance but the civic will effectively do that for you. Right now foreign trade has a lot of competition for its civic slot. if anything it needs to keep its trade routes and improve trade yield at the least. It'd be nice if it gave you something militarily like hiring mercenaries outside of guild of the nine.

Foreign Trade is pretty awesome, atm. And that's largely the emancipation aspect. I want to change it because I feel that there's a glut of trade routes available, and very few modifiers. I don't actually think it needs buffing or nerfing, so I'm trying to keep it at ~ the same strength.

I actually meant to say it loses the +1 TR in coastal cities, not the one everywhere. Ugh.

FT is not getting a military boost, and definitely not that one.

10. This only further disincentivizes Magocracy. I prefer 2 free sages from BTS.

What? What is Magocracy? Do you realise we're talking about Dragon's Hoard (which doesn't exist in BTS ) here?

11. This obsoletes late game civics and disincentivizes going for certain techs. The problem with Pacifism is that no one should start the game with it besides Grigori. moreover the choice of just sages or merchants feels arbitrary, the Elohim would likely prefer inf priests.

No, I don't like it. To properly do this requires a redesign of the tech tree.

You're right, this does necessitate changing Guilds/Scholarship and so on. But they hardly ever come into play anyway, so I didn't consider it a major problem.

And the idea is that specialists become a legitimate economy choice, as discussed (much) earlier. I don't see a better civic to put it at and still have it available early.

It's merchants and sages because those are what you want for an economy. Priests serve a very different purpose, and I didn't want to obsolete either theocracy or boost the SPI line in general.

[Qgqqqqq]

19. Perhaps make the town not decrease to a village when a unit spawns. Or make something of a "enclave" upgrade to Bannor cottages, but the only thing happens is that a unit is born and you get straight back to a town. That'd make the bonus less random.

I like this!

[Qgqqqqq]

13. Keep in mind this will allow with enough of the Altar, blatant 1 Turn waning. Unfortunately the Waning mechanic is just broken. It doesn't fit neatly in the game.

I'm happy to see the Sidar proven broken, for once. Go for it! But remember the amount of setup it takes anyway.

I don't see why Public baths is antisynergistic with Drama, but this is fine.

Perhaps I misspoke. It's anti-synergistic because CRE civs are the least incentivized to head to Drama, which is often used to bulb Sanitation, which allows one to build Baths.

I'm tempted to say let them wane into Great Prophets.

Not doing this because settled GP don't really have a purpose. They're a weird mix of gold and hammers, and I'm only giving them this because of the popularity of Sidarian Altar.

18. What's wrong with 150% ? Why is this necessary?

It basically never triggers.

19. How about +1 Food per Cottage. Consider letting them build cottages early. This conflicts with Kuriorates schtick somewhat (Maybe they should get +1 food for cottages too in addition to their Enclave). Make the growth of their cottages naturally faster like with the civic or technology.

All of these are waaaaay too powerful. They don't really need much of a buff, just a bit of incentive towards cottages/something to spice them up.

20. Why 8? Why not 9 or 12 or 5 or 1?

Thanks.

Okay, so the idea I've had surrounding civic swap length is to limit it on quick such that you can achieve two civic swaps within a GA (which is always the case in base BTS) and is something I think is beneficial to return to.
This can, of course, be viewed two ways - firstly, it boosts SPI, because 8t between swapping civics/religions is slightly better than 10t. At the same time, of course, it better enables non-SPIs to mimic it's effects, so imo it's a comparative nerf of them, if slight.

[Qgqqqqq]

21. Druids gain Divine. Acolytes, Disciples Ecclesiastics, Savants, Thanes and Zealots can upgrade to Druids.
- Druids can be used to cast tier 2 spells you aren't in the right religion for.

[Kragroth]

You're right, this does necessitate changing Guilds/Scholarship and so on. But they hardly ever come into play anyway, so I didn't consider it a major problem.

And the idea is that specialists become a legitimate economy choice, as discussed (much) earlier. I don't see a better civic to put it at and still have it available early.

It's merchants and sages because those are what you want for an economy. Priests serve a very different purpose, and I didn't want to obsolete either theocracy or boost the SPI line in general.

The problem is that this would do a few things

1. No need to go to Mysticism.

Right now besides being a prereq, Mysticism has a couple of things going for it, God King and Elder Councils. If I can get early sages, I can probably just skip out on building Elder Councils and just go For Education every time instead. I can probably skip Writing for extra sages or Temple of the Overlords for Extra sages or Temple of the Veil for extra sages or Mage Guilds for extra Sages.

I can probably skip festivals and just hire a merchant with this. I'm not sure that's a good thing. This really just doubles down on the early game.

Theocracy is unlikely to ever be used, the times you'd want it are very slim. Keep in mind that still, the Elohim want priests as do other civs. Moreover, priests help you build and support an army and growing cities. They definitely have their own niche. And of course if you did add in infinite priests like you rightly should along sages and merchants, well then that conflicts with the Altar bonuses which give bonus priest slots.

I'm tempted to say that a generic Bonus to Great people civic which is what Pacifism is, probably belongs later in the tech tree when a civ is actually able to build buildings to adopt specialists. Mysticism or Philosophy might actually be a better point to introduce a Pacifism like Civic (probably only -10% military production).