Rebalancing Civ4: RtR Mod

[Cheater Hater]

Bye bye (active) Espionage.

That still doesn't change things about using 2.0.7.4 as a baseline--if you want to throw the baby out with the bathwater go do it in SMEG, where even you don't understand all the implications of the stuff you're changing. Or just go make a Warlords mod with the new civs in it.

[Gavagai]

Actually, I think there is a different way to make Espinage reasonable, without killing all active missions: to remove Espinage slider. This way you will be able to get Espionage only from buildings and specialists. Of course, it may need some other rebalancing but I think this is the right way to approach it.
I think, Espinage in principle is a good idea, it is just poorly implemented.

[plako]

Why are active mission removed. I think currently the tech st4ealing mission costs are pretty decently in balance when compared to self-research. It requires considerable effort to make it wothwhile.

[AdrienIer]

Maybe you could (as a very short term solution) upload RtR 2.0.7.6b with espionage on ?

[Gavagai]

Why are active mission removed. I think currently the tech st4ealing mission costs are pretty decently in balance when compared to self-research. It requires considerable effort to make it wothwhile.

My PB22 experiences are quite different...

[plako]

My PB22 experiences are quite different...

So why isn't everyone doing it, if it is so great? It is borderline competitive to normal research, if you've made big investments on Espionage infra and you're tech wise behind multiple opponents to steal from. Removing it will take strategic choices out of the game.

[GermanJoey]

Actually, I think there is a different way to make Espinage reasonable, without killing all active missions: to remove Espinage slider. This way you will be able to get Espionage only from buildings and specialists. Of course, it may need some other rebalancing but I think this is the right way to approach it.
I think, Espinage in principle is a good idea, it is just poorly implemented.

I agree with this as well. The opposite solution, to remove the fixed +EP bonuses from CH/Jail/SB/IA (but not the palace) and keep the slider, might work too.

[GermanJoey]

My PB22 experiences are quite different...

So why isn't everyone doing it, if it is so great? It is borderline competitive to normal research, if you've made big investments on Espionage infra and you're tech wise behind multiple opponents to steal from. Removing it will take strategic choices out of the game.

Well, I think the rest of us did not realize that it was still viable in RtR mod until it was too late (as you said, ep econ requires quite a bit of additional/alternative infrastructure, different civics, etc), as the RtR changelog states that active missions were supposed to have had their prices doubled and many of their other discounts removed. Part of that is our fault for not looking into it closer, part of it might be that the nerfs were not actually tested enough to meet with what they were intended to do.

I'd like to say a lot more (and y'all know that I always like to say a lot more ) but really can't while our game is still going. In general, I agree with you though that it shouldn't be cut completely just because it's different and good.

[Mardoc]

How about you remove Great People, too? You can get a lot more beakers by running a scientist and bulbing something than you can by working a cottage as you're supposed to and running the commerce through beaker multipliers. Great People don't suffer any of the restrictions of espionage, either: you can research things other people don't have, you can get your research done before the Communism era, and you don't have to pay attention to spy units.

[Commodore]

Yeah, this is clearly a baby+bathwater issue. Frankly given the huge setup costs and the vulnerability that trailing means...no idea why this got nuked.