New FFH2 PBEM?

[Ellimist]

Out of curiosity Ellimist. How did North fare in our 7 day trial?

Okay, here's my evaluation of the situation. I'm going to be as objective as I can be with the time I have available.

I demanded that certain conditions would be met, and Tasunke, Saruman, and Kragoth either voiced support for the conditions or did not object to them. Here is my opinion on how well each of them has been adhered to.

If you have a play window that fits between Kragoth's declared window and Tasunke's declared window.

Northstar's new play window works, but it is often by the slimmest of margins. Getting the turn to Tasunke by 11 PM central is often doable for him but can easily cause delays as Saruman and I both need to receive it very quickly afterward. As the game continues to develop, the turns will take longer and this will probably get worse.

I'm going to judge this condition as neither passing nor failing.

If you can guarantee that there will be no more turnpace problems, that you will reliably and promptly play any turns that arrive during or before your declared window.

I haven't actually seen Northstar guarantee this, but he has made statements such as:

Once again, Ellmist, nobody has the right to make ultimatums on other players here...

I've told you guys a number of times now, my current play window is 9:30-11 PM Central Time on weekdays. That is non-negotiable. I can't play at work. I don't have a long enough lunch break to play a turn there (or internet access at work...) You cannot impose a set of conditions that requires me to change my play-window, you will have to change your own play-windows if you have the flexibility, or accept that the new play-windows will be out-of-order.

These things happen. People accept and lose/quit jobs. Play-windows inevitably change over the course of a game. You cannot punish players for that without giving up every scrap of your morality...

(emphasis added)

This condition seems to be a clear FAIL.

If you receive a turn at an inconvenient time(outside of your window), you will reliably play the turn and send it onward at your next available opportunity. There should be no more delays over 24 hours.

You should start checking the tracker website to verify that the save was passed on properly after you send it. This is one of the intended purposes of the tool, and something that should be a habit to help prevent "oops" delays.

If, for some reason, you are unable to play a turn in a timely manner, you will promptly notify us of the delay either in this thread or by email. This should be a very rare event.

PASS, PASS, PASS for these three.

I don't think there have been any problems related to these in the past week.

If you foresee that you will have trouble meeting these obligations alone, you will work with a teammate to make sure that they are nonetheless met. It can be (but does not have to be) Old Lion; it can be anyone who is willing to work with you but I will insist that you treat both Old Lion and others with genuine respect and courteousness. I personally would not mind if a spoiled general lurker volunteers for this role.

Old Lion has played and sent several turns over the past week and deserves a lot of credit for the very good turn pace we have had. Unfortunately, Northstar considers a turn to be "botched" if Old Lion makes any independent decisions at all. Obviously, this is not going to work and Old Lion has understandably decided not to continue dealing with it. His attitude and behavior toward Old Lion has also been unacceptable and would presumably be the same toward any teammate.

FAIL for this one.

There will be an end to the drama. You have exhausted my supply of patience. If you think something is unfair, convince your teammate or a lurker to bring it to our attention. At the least, Kragoth and I are very unlikely to give it a fair hearing if you present more complaints in this thread. If a genuine injustice has occurred, I would very much prefer to hear about it from someone else because it will be easier for me to remain objective and fair about it.

This condition has definitely not been met. FAIL

You will not hold the turn hostage in an attempt to pressure us.

Technically, this condition has not been violated. The replay requests don't quite meet the criteria. PASS


With the explicit consent of Tasunke, Saruman, and Kragoth, I have removed Northstar from the tracker's email forwarding. Old Lion is welcome to take over for him as the primary turn player, but if he is unwilling to do so we need to find a replacement player to take over his civ.

[Northstar1989]

Well, first of all Ellmist, the comments you quoted on #2 are about the play-window, not reliably sending the save onwards. Nothing I've said disagreed with that- and in fact I have implied a guarantee of reliably sending on the turn (even if I haven't, until now, explicitly stated it- but you always did and still have that guarantee), so that one's a PASS by your ultimatum, not a FAIL.

Neither is 6 a fail- I *HAVE* worked with Old Lion, and was actively trying to patch things up with him after his announcing he didn't want in on the turn anymore. I never disrespected him- while I was critical of him (as I am equally so of myself) I was very careful to state repeatedly to him (in my lurker thread) that none of it was personal... And if patching things up with him doesn't work, I intended and intend to find a new partner (preferably somebody more experienced- since my only beef with Old Lion was mistakes he kept making due to inexperience). So, while I was critical of him, I was also respectful (and went out of my way to extend the courtesy to him of explaining it was nothing personal when I criticized) that's a PASS- you can't judge the past by what might happen in the future, and I successfully worked with him over the past week...

As for 7, you guys have been the primary source of the drama. Even my requests for replays were simple and to-the-point: it was you guys who made a spectacle out of them by publicly disagreeing with them and calling me unreasonable for requesting them, etc.


So, I haven't failed any of the conditions of your ultimatum except, possibly, the drama bit- after all it does take two to tango... Thus, I passed 5 out of 7 of your own criteria.


Speaking of drama- can you please end this drama and just send me the save already? We could be churning out more turns in the meantime (I logged onto my e-mail prepared to download the save tonight- only to come across this bit of drama...), regardless of whether you intend to intentionally replace me... Which you have no grounds for doing, even by your own metrics (I might very well manage to patch things up with Old Lion, and have successfully worked with him in the past- most turns did not require a replay...), except for the entirely subjective subject of "Drama".


I apologize for any part I may have had in adding to the Drama. That doesn't change that removing me from my own game is unfair, disrespectful, and unjust. I explicitly withdrew from all my other PBEM's (sometimes with the excuse I was going to lose anyways) just so I would have more time to focus on getting this one around promptly. It's not right to turn around and remove me from this game after that sacrifice. Please add me back to the tracker and let's try and keep this game passing around, please, rather than dying in limbo without another player.


Regards,
Northstar

[Ellimist]

Sorry Northstar, but all four of us have discussed the situation by email and the decision has been made. I do not expect any of us to change our minds. I do regret that it became necessary to remove you.

You are welcome to join Old Lion as a dedlurker and occasional helper if he is willing to involve you.

[Northstar1989]

Sorry Northstar, but all four of us have discussed the situation by email and the decision has been made. I do not expect any of us to change our minds. I do regret that it became necessary to remove you.

You are welcome to join Old Lion as a dedlurker and occasional helper if he is willing to involve you.

Ellmist, it is not right to make a decision like that clandestinely. You ought to involve me in the discussion of my own removal- this is not something that should be discussed in secret and without me.

Please open this to a public discussion and vote here on the forum. I have apologies, alternatives (removing my isn't the only option), and valid points to make here, and it's not right to deny me the opportunity to make them.


Regards,
Northstar

[Ellimist]

Ellmist, it is not right to make a decision like that clandestinely. You ought to involve me in the discussion of my own removal- this is not something that should be discussed in secret and without me.

Please open this to a public discussion and vote here on the forum. I have apologies, alternatives (removing my isn't the only option), and valid points to make here, and it's not right to deny me the opportunity to make them.

You can say whatever you like in this thread.

We did involve you. There have been several posts in this thread that explicitly told you what was expected and what was acceptable and your response to all of them was to claim that nobody had any authority to do so. It has been impossible to convince you that we were willing and able to remove you from the game.

It's done.

NONE of us wanted to replace you, but you have not left us with any choice. I have made several sincere attempts to persuade you of my seriousness and to convince you to behave differently. I have insisted that the decision to remove you or impose conditions had to be unanimous, and I had originally assumed that the decision to crack your password would have been as well. I have done everything within my power in an attempt to rehabilitate you into this game, but you have chosen to ignore the warnings.

[Northstar1989]

You can say whatever you like in this thread.

That's not what I meant. Please (temporarily) reverse the decision (and continue passing the turn around to me in the meantime) and open the topic of removing me to discussion.

We did involve you. There have been several posts in this thread that explicitly told you what was expected and what was acceptable and your response to all of them was to claim that nobody had any authority to do so. It has been impossible to convince you that we were willing and able to remove you from the game.

You didn't, and don't have that authority Ellmist. Authority is different from ability or power. No one person has the authority to remove a player who started his PBEM from his own game simply because he doesn't like that player or he feels that player ought to pass his turns around more quickly.

That doesn't mean it can't be done- but authority speaks to the moral right to do something, not the physical capability to make something a reality. I was well aware you had the *power* to remove me- my statements had the meaning to the effect that "might doesn't make right", and just because you *could* remove me did not mean you had the right or authority to do so...

It's done.

I'm asking you to reverse that- at least until it can be reasonably discussed in public, with my involvement.

NONE of us wanted to replace you,

That's not true, and you know it. Your posts prove you have wanted to remove me for some time now, even when all I've done is played my turns and requested replays where necessary.

but you have not left us with any choice.

That is far from true- and only a rationalization. There were and are many alternatives to removing me. Perhaps a public discourse could have brought some of those up with a little creative thought...

I have made several sincere attempts to persuade you of my seriousness and to convince you to behave differently.

You've asked me to do the impossible (change my play window) more than anything else. What else have you asked for that I haven't provided?

Even by your own criteria the only ones I failed were play-window and "Drama" (and it takes two to tango). I never doubted your seriousness- I only questioned your moral authority (I hope adding the word "moral" clarifies the intention of my previous statements) to do so.

I have insisted that the decision to remove you or impose conditions had to be unanimous,

And it failed previously when you tried to remove me.

That should have been the end of it, as since then my turnaround times have improved *dramatically* and we've often actually managed more than one turn a day. But if you kept demanding my removal long enough, eventually you were bound to wear the other players down with the drama that inevitably created...

and I had originally assumed that the decision to crack your password would have been as well. I have done everything within my power in an attempt to rehabilitate you into this game, but you have chosen to ignore the warnings.

Ellmist, with all due respect, your actions have been extremely misguided if those were really your intentions. If you were trying to "rehabilitate" a player, you were taking entirely the wrong approach (for instance, you need to favor the carrot over the stick when trying to change a person's behavior- countless socio/psychological studies have proven reward works well and punishment does not in changing human behavior- yet you actually became *more* vocal in your criticism of me and demands to have me removed from the game as my turn-times improved...)


And what warnings have I chosen to ignore? Show me where I've ignored you- and you have my apologies. Telling you that you lack the moral authority to remove me from the game (not the power or ability- the moral right) is not ignoring your warnings, and I've explained several times what I can (work with Old Lion and improve turnaround-times) and cannot (change my play-window) do.


Regards,
Northstar

[Ellimist]

I do not have time to respond to you tonight point by point. Please reread the posts in this thread and it should not be difficult to understand where we are coming from.

I do not expect you to believe me, but I have not been demanding your removal. I have disciplined(and terminated) employees as a retail store manager and it is never something that I will enjoy doing or prefer to do if there are alternatives.

We gave you the equivalent of a written warning and performance improvement plan. Sometimes people are unable to meet their obligations and have to be let go. It's nothing personal. Furthermore, the decision to remove you was unanimous. The decision to add you back, even temporarily, would have to be unanimous as well. I understand that you were not expecting this to actually happen, but we made every attempt to clarify the situation to you.

[Northstar1989]

I would like to say this, though.

Ellmist, Kragroth, Tasunke, and Saruman...

You guys all have my apologies for my part in the drama that has occurred here. While I may disagree with Ellmist as to the original source of this drama (IMHO, the late source of it has been mainly his own continued attempts to remove me from the game even before Old Lion left and after my play-times started dramatically improving) I made the mistake of engaging in it myself (it takes two to tango) and I know that hasn't exactly been pleasant for you guys...


So, I'm sorry that the continued arguments here have made things uncomfortable for you.


I would like to continue onwards, reverse this decision and drop this discussion of removing me entirely (there was really no reason for it after my turn-times improved. It actually helped set off tensions that contributed to Old Lion leaving- ask him if he's enjoyed all the dram here if you don't believe me...) and after the discussion has been had not bring it up again unless I fall behind in the save-turnaround (which my record of late should prove I have no intention of doing) as Ellmist' and Kragroth's constant threats to remove me (even when things were going extremely well in terms of turn-cycling) were only a source of constant drama and tension...

There is no reason to have removed me after a week of averaging over a turn/day (don't think Old Lion wouldn't necessarily have come back- I was actively working to try and reconcile things with him...) Giving me the stick (removing me) instead of the carrot (praising me for the extra effort) for drastically improving my turnaround-times isn't exactly fair treatment, after all...


Regards,
Northstar

[Northstar1989]

I do not have time to respond to you tonight point by point. Please reread the posts in this thread and it should not be difficult to understand where we are coming from.

I do not expect you to believe me, but I have not been demanding your removal. I have disciplined(and terminated) employees as a retail store manager and it is never something that I will enjoy doing or prefer to do if there are alternatives.

We gave you the equivalent of a written warning and performance improvement plan. Sometimes people are unable to meet their obligations and have to be let go. It's nothing personal. Furthermore, the decision to remove you was unanimous. The decision to add you back, even temporarily, would have to be unanimous as well. I understand that you were not expecting this to actually happen, but we made every attempt to clarify the situation to you.

Well, you've clarified one thing very well for me Ellmist. I now understand your perspective on your treatment of me a bit better- you were treating me like one of your mis-behaving employees.

What you failed to realize, and I tried to point out multiple times here, is that it was a conceited view you had. You were not the retail store manager here. You were an angry employee in a store that was being poorly-run, deciding that *HE* was going to take charge of the store and kick out the original manager.

The player who starts a PBEM is, by default, the one in charge of it (the same way this is technically "my" thread). So kicking me out of that position was like an employee kicking out his own manager. Sure, you may not have *liked* my position of authority, felt I deserved it or was qualified for it (perhaps you thought you could do it better), or even actually respected it by conferring me any real power over how things were managed- but you did not have the moral *right* to rebel and treat me like this, even if you had the ability to take power for yourself...


Methaphor aside. I think things would have gone much more smoothly if you have just respected the authority I had from the beginning instead of constantly denying me any power and eventually forcefully seizing my position from me, but I did a poor job of managing this PBEM early on- and after that things snowballed out of control- so I'm not entirely faultless either...


Please refer to my apology. You've got it right that I failed your condition of "Drama", but by any accurate accounting I passed 5 out of the 7 other conditions you set- and I am sincerely apologetic for the one I failed...


Regards,
Northstar

[Northstar1989]

One more thing.

Ellmist, what I really desire is reconciliation here. But, if that proves absolutely impossible, please do not steal the PBEM that I started from me. That's not right.

Instead, take a copy of the save and create a "new" PBEM with its own sub-forum, where you would "rightfully" be the one in charge, and have the moral authority to do whatever you want...

In short, take advantage of the authority you always did have- the authority over your own decision to remain in the game. IF agreement can't be reached, leave and start a "clone" PBEM (the existence of to which I will have no objections). Leave me to try and find other players to replace you and anyone who leaves with you, or to try and trudge along with AI's replacing any players who left... (technically, there's little reason we couldn't have both games operating in parallel, with some players like Tasunke and Saruman playing in both) This is one of the "alternatives" I was talking about before, and is the *MORALLY RIGHT* thing to do here...


Regards,
Northstar