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Tasunke · July 7th, 2015, 21:17

Yes, Nightwatch at 3/2 + 2 poison, Guardsman and Marksman @ Archery and Deception (I like it) 120 hammers and can use metals. 1 base movement. Its fitting imho.

Shadowriders, 6 str, 3 move, 35% withdrawal (base HA stuff) +1 poison combat, 10%.collateral, max 30% collateral damage. 150 hammers imho If you went 180 hammers, I'd have to think of something strange like, 25% flanking vs ... (assassin? Catapult?) or something. Imho 150 hammers for something a bit stronger than the 120 HA is enough. I mean, its not like its as strong as Iron Ogres or something. And it can't summon spectres like a Vampire. I'd ask to add Shadow 1 + Shadow 2 to the Shadow riders but I believe they come with that already (and if they don't it should prob be added).

Escape for Shadow sounds vunderbar. Two thumbs up!!

And just by default, I feel as though (Since Hyborem can't follow any religion but AV, and since Angels get their own 'any religion' Shadow UU) ... that Hyborem should get a non-religion specific Shadow UU 'Soul Eater' which erm, starts with Cannibalism. (which only affects living units anyways). As a 'penalty' perhaps Soul Eater requires both Guilds and Arcane Lore. (or Guilds + Mercantilism)

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Back to the Grigori .... Museum 100 hammers, 1 artist slot, +20% culture, @Writing. (replaces Pagan Temple)

'Artist' buildable w/ Museums, requires Grigori civ + Writing tech. 1 str, 1 move. Can do '+15 ' culture bombs. (normal speed) +10 quick speed ofc, as the scale goes. (aka a missionary culture bomb)

Luannotar, buildable in cities, @ Fanaticism 160 hammers
10 str, +50% vs disciple, targets Disciple units first outside of cities, 2 movement
Magic Immune, Inquisitor, Medic 3, Channeling 1-3
Can cast 'Wonder, Revelation, and Hope'

#332 · July 7th, 2015, 22:16

Tasunke, I think any new units are outside the scope of this mod, even ones which sound really cool on paper. I'm actually relieved that v12 will do away with "Extort", not because the spell was necessarily bad, but because it was completely without precedent in the base game.

Tasunke · July 7th, 2015, 22:21

Yej, I can understand not adding 'Soul Eater' for that reason, b/c, to my knowledge, it was never in base.

I hope, however, that you are not referring to 'artist' ... as its basically not even a unit, but just filling a mechanic gap.

#334 · July 7th, 2015, 23:16

I was referring to both. To be completely, brutally honest, there is zero chance that Qg will implement anything along those lines ever, as I think he has made clear on several occasions, and your legitimate suggestions are not likely to be noticed or taken seriously if they're accompanied by fanciful units that are never going to be a part of the mod.

Qgqqqqq · July 8th, 2015, 01:04

What Bob said. Honestly, Tasunke, I struggle to read your posts here, because every time you start talking about something I already know isn't happening I have to force myself to keep following it.

Quote:Shadowriders, 6 str, 3 move, 35% withdrawal (base HA stuff) +1 poison combat, 10%.collateral, max 30% collateral damage. 150 hammers imho If you went 180 hammers, I'd have to think of something strange like, 25% flanking vs ... (assassin? Catapult?) or something. Imho 150 hammers for something a bit stronger than the 120 HA is enough. I mean, its not like its as strong as Iron Ogres or something. And it can't summon spectres like a Vampire. I'd ask to add Shadow 1 + Shadow 2 to the Shadow riders but I believe they come with that already (and if they don't it should prob be added).

It's an extra strength ahead of normal HA, and is now the fastest source of collateral easily available, to say nothing of being one of the cheapest to access and mass-produce sources out there.

The cost differential is the same as that of Rathas, which is intentional.

Tasunke · July 8th, 2015, 10:42

at 180 hammers, I feel as though 10% collateral with 30% max collateral damage seems fair, as its about the same as a Maelstrom (30% total damage), while requiring 180*3= 540 hammers as opposed to 90*2= 180 hammers (two Air II mages)

This brings Esus up to 30% damage w/ religious units, which is compared to Ashen Veil 40%, empyrean's (60%/75%), and Octopus Overlords's (coastal) 75%.

Empyrean technically has the best 'collateral' but its limited to 5 units (4 high priests + Chalid), Octopus is massive but situational, and Esus/Veil is easily attained and minimal (30%/40%).

RoK n FoL have their own economic advantages (Arete and Ancient Forest+Happy)

and Order has happiness more readily accessible than FoL, and a tier 4 'super spell' that gets rid of unhappiness and Maintenance in up to 5 cities, as well as a 2nd city bringing Rathaus level maintenance coverage (40+40->80%), which can be brought to 85 (or 90%) by founding Order and building Shrine ... (90% if law mana from palace).

Probably the best two benefits of Order are Royal Guards and Bless.

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These changes to Esus, imho (Escape on Shadows, HA level Shadowriders, Nightwatch @Archery/Deception +Guardsman/Marksman) bring the religion on par with the others, making it a primarily military-focused religion.

There is one thing that, perhaps, has been overlooked, imho, by both myself and others, with regards to Esus

The original ShadowRider (knight level, shadowI-II, HN) has Hidden Nationality ... and while the HA level Shadow Riders might also be given HN at the initial .... might it prove even more devious to allow ShadowRiders the ability to cast Mask?

Assuming all these things (1- all Esus-recon can cast mask (in Base), 2- Recon Heroes built during Esus state religion gain Esus religion)

And knowing that Shadows can cast mask ... I wonder if it would be prudent to allow for Nightwatch and Shadowriders, who *start* with HN, to be able to cast mask ... which, imho, should be a hallmark of any Esus 'religious unit' that already starts with HN, given that (non religious Recon that believe in Esus can cast mask).

And I know at least one mod added that 'Recon Heroes' built during Esus state religion would have Esus as 'religion' and thus able to cast mask ... if that is possible to implement I think it should be a serious consideration.

Tasunke

Onto Berserkers, Paladins, Eidolons, and Luannotars.

Fanaticism -> Rage .... rly?

It somewhat made sense when Rage/Malevolent/Righteousness were all on the same level, with Eidolons at Mal and Paladins at Righteousness.

Now it just seems like .... like its kind of out of place. I do have a few suggestions though.

Tech based suggestions
#1. Make Rage only 25% mor expensive than Fanaticism, maybe even rename it Devotion (will touch on that later)

#2. REMOVE RAGE ENTIRELY (as a tech)

Unit based suggestions
#1. Move Paladin/Eidolon(+Luannotar) to Rage, rename it Devotion ... move Berserker to Fanaticism.

#1-B (OPTIONAL) Make Devotion only barely more expensive than Fanaticism (25% more?) If you fear Rage is 'too late' for religious superunits stronger than KNIGHTS.

#2. Make all units (Paladin/Eidolon/Berserker) at Fanaticism. Remove Rage as a tech. ((Enable at least one of the other tier4 religious techs a direct link to Fanaticism, allowing for Agnostics to get to Divine Essence)) -> or just have Divine Essence possible to get to after Fanat ... too strong?

#2-B. (OPTIONAL) Increase the cost of Fanaticism to 2400 (from 1800)

Cost suggestions ...
#1. Increase Paladin/Eidolon cost to 240 hammers to match the cost of Berserkers! (and Luannotars)
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Summary Analysis (My true suggestion)

#1. Move all 3-4 units (Pally/Eido/Berserker) +[L optional] to Fanaticism.
#2. Increase Fanaticism cost to 2400 beakers
#3. Increase Pally/Eido cost to 240 hammers
#4. Remove Rage as a tech
#5. Have Berserkers additionally require Ironworking tech (instead of requiring Iron, like Pallies/Eidos still do)
#6. Continue to have Fanaticism as an OR prereq for Commune w/ Nature
#7.ADD Religious Law as a prereq for Righteousness ***this RE-enables Agnostic civs the ability to cast ritual 'Glory Everlasting' (by building it w/ hammers, of course)

Ranamar · July 8th, 2015, 19:09

Are the new Shadowriders losing their shadow mana affinity? Actually, I guess that would make them similar to Rathas.

Thought: You can upgrade Rathas to Knights and they keep their ability to cast blinding light. I seem to recall that Shadowriders could cast the Shadow II spell for money. How about giving them the promotion and making them fairly direct mirrors to Rathas? (Note: I have given this at most five minutes of thought.)

Qgqqqqq · July 8th, 2015, 20:32

Shadowriders would be losing that. No way you want a spammable mainline tier 3 unit with affinity, even if it is one of the worst affinities.

I've considered giving them Shadow II, but I'm a bit wary to pile on to many bonuses, and it's not like Shadow II is anything on Sun II in terms of power.

Tasunke · July 9th, 2015, 02:13

eh? They had shadow affinity? Well DEFINITELY remove that!!! (not that affinity for spammable wouldn't be cool ... and its already on a summon ... but still .... and summons can't gain xp ... n stuff ... and are reliant on their mages being alive)

I was just talking about the spells ... (shadow I and shadow II)

--> Not just for that reason, but there are several other reasons why I think a tier 3 and a tier 4 version would be acceptable, but having just tier 3 shadowriders and just tier 4 shadows is the compromise I can live with wink

I mean, from my perspective other religions have Priest (tier 3) and High Priest (tier 4), so it would make sense to have a tier3 and a tier 4 for one or two of the Esus unit lines. (I'll grant that mounted, recon, and archery are significantly more interesting ... but still, priests get free xp, and some of then even have good spells :P)

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